Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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R

resurrectionandlife

Guest
Let me switch gears for a minute here, for all of us whom believe that when we die, we don't really die, but that we have an immortal soul that floats up into heaven to be with the Lord if we are believers in him. It is interesting that Jesus himself states in John 8 that the devil, or Satan is a "liar and the father of lies". What was the very first thing that Satan said and lied about? Where would we find that? In Genesis 3, in the garden of course! And what does the liar and father of lies say to the woman? "You shall surely not die." And we have believed it ever since. In different manners and in different ways, the original lie of Satan still has its influence to this very day. How evil and genius is Satan, the god of this age (2 Cor. 4)?More than we are willing to admit, I'm afraid. So, who do you believe? God's word, or Satan?

I realize that many reading this, if you've even got this far ;), are probably pulling out your hair and may be calling me a heretic. Please remember how I started this post in my first underlined sentence. We could go on and on about the natural constitution of man and his destiny (which is unconditional death), but we still have yet to answer the question. What does it mean to be "born again"?

We understand the phrase, to be "born again", from John 3. Most of us are very familiar with this passage of scripture. I'm going to now explain what I understand what Jesus is referring to in John chapter 3, and it may or may not give you different thoughts on the subject of being "born again". Please bear with me (again). And again, I'm being as brief as possible.

Nicodemus was no fool. He was a Pharisee, and the teacher of Israel. A ruler of the Jews. Why then does Jesus say, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” Why does Jesus reprimand Nicodemus for not understanding what he was being told? Many commentators will say that the teaching in John 3 is something new, a new revelation by Jesus. But is it? If it is, then how can Jesus reprimand him? The answer is that he couldn’t, and this teaching is something that Nicodemus should have understood, being THE teacher of Israel. The definite article in Greek before ‘teacher’ tells us that Nicodemus was indeed a very important man, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews in fact. And where would Jesus expect Nicodemus to go, to understand what he was saying? To the epistles of Paul? To the teachings of Peter or James or John? Of course not, for these men have not yet put the pen to paper! Where is the only place Nicodemus could have gone to understand that one must be born of WATER and SPIRIT to enter the KINGDOM OF GOD? The Hebrew scriptures, of course!
If this scenario of entrance into the Kingdom of God is not found anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures, then Nicodemus could say something to the effect of, ‘I don’t understand, Jesus, because it isn’t found anywhere in the scriptures.’ But it IS, and Nicodemus SHOULD have known it.

The key to understanding John 3, the location of Christianity’s most favorite verse that can be recited by young and old alike, probably even by many of those who don’t believe in Jesus the Son of God as the savior who died for our sins and rose again, is to understand to what Jesus was referring to in the Hebrew scriptures when speaking to Nicodemus. The ONLY place in the Hebrew scriptures that the formula of WATER, SPIRIT and KINGDOM and in that order can be found is… Ezekiel 36:22-37:28. And this prophecy by Ezekiel is concerning… THE DAVIDIC KINGDOM, the future Kingdom of God.

Ez. 37:24, “24 “My servant David (Jesus Christ) will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.” … and so on until the end of chapter 37. When will these things take place? At the resurrection! That is what it means to be born of water and spirit!

Of water: Ez. 36:25, “25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.” Of spirit: Ez. 37:5-9, 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” (Hmmm, sounds a lot like John 3:8, doesn't it -- "wind=spirit=breath" same word in Greek pneuma, as in 'pneumatic' in English, the movement of air..)
And again in verses 13-14, “13 Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 I will put My spirit (same word in Hebrew 'ruach' as breath - same word as in vs.5-9... just like it is in Greek) within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’”

'Breath’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same word in both Greek and Hebrew. It’s probably even indicated in the footnotes at the bottom of the page of your bible. One must be born of water and spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God!

It is a water/spirit event. One preposition governs both nouns, in that I mean that it does not say “of water and of the spirit” (as it does incorrectly in the KJV), but that it says in the Greek and other English versions, correctly, “of water and the spirit” or “of water and spirit”. John 3, the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, is about resurrection, and Nicodemus should have known it, (hence the reprimand), especially since the reference Jesus was making was to such a prominent part of the scriptures, on dealing with the New Covenant as we see at the end of chapter 37 of Ezekiel, “26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”


What then does it mean to be “born again” in this context! The Greek work ‘anothen’ can be correctly translated as ‘again’ or ‘above’. Let me share with you why I am inclined to say that it should be correctly translated as ‘above’ rather than ‘again’. Firstly, and most simply, God is doing this to the whole house of Israel, to vindicate his holy name (Ez. 36). And where is he doing this from? Well, he’s doing this from above. It is an adverb of place, not of time. Nicodemus was thinking incorrectly when he perceived Jesus as meaning ‘again’, thinking a man had to enter the womb a second time. We know that’s not correct. Also, consider how the same word, ‘anothen’, is used in every other instance in the gospel of John (since the apostle is the user of the word). Later in verse 31 of chapter 3: 31 , “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.“ Above, not again. And also John 19:11, “11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above;… Also in John 19:23, “23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece.” In this example, ‘anothen’ is translated ‘outer’, designating “outer garments” (the garments that are above the rest of the clothing), not the ‘again garments’! That is every other instance the term is used in the gospel of John. It is more consistent and logical to have translated it ‘above’ throughout the Nicodemus conversation as well.

The only thing different, or new, that Jesus was saying in this discourse, is that he was now equating being born of water and of spirit with being “born from above”, and Nicodemus did not put that together. The phrase, “born from above”, is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. Being “born from above”, means we are resurrected.

Still not convinced? What does John chapter 3 immediately follow? John chapter 2, of course. And what just happened in John 2? You will remember that Jesus cleansed the temple. And this of course angered the Jews who asked him, 'by what authority do you do these things'? 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

The immediate previous context of John 3 has to do with resurrection, from death to life, in John 2. There is no other explanation for what being "born again" or "born from above" means.

Lastly, (and finally), let me give you one more thing to think about. One verse we seem to just read right over in the John 3 discourse is this: 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up". It is important to realize that what Jesus is referring to here is that all important passage in Number 21:5 and following:

"The people spoke against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.” 6 The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and you; intercede with the Lord, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."

What is Jesus equating being "born again/above" with when he quotes Numbers 21? It is, quite simply - Death to Life. If you were bitten by a fiery serpent, what would happen? You were sure to die. What must you have done to live? Look at the object that got had provided for life, so that you would not die. The same is true for Jesus Christ. YOU AND I ARE DYING. And the only hope we have is to look at the object that God has provided for salvation, Jesus Christ.

No one is 'Born Again' or more accurately, "born from above", until the resurrection. This will happen at the end of the age - the beginning of the next age, the inauguration of the Parousia of the Christs Kingdom. I did not continue to get on to the explanation of the present age and the age to come, or the promise of "zoe aionion" (eternal life), to properly understand the age to come. This post would be doubled in length. I think this is long enough now. Read the very last verse of the book of Daniel, to learn of the prophet Daniels future expectation, and when it was that he would come back to life (and we whom believe as well).

God bless you all - and again, sorry for this ridiculously long post. I'm sure this will get plenty of response, but don't expect that I will be able to be as long winded in my responses. I started this 5 hours ago!
 
R

resurrectionandlife

Guest
Too long, had to do 2 separate posts.

:(

Have a great day!
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Too long, had to do 2 separate posts.

:(

Have a great day!
I commend you for your effort, R, and will address this when I get the chance.

We would be in agreement in regards to the view that the term "soul" is misunderstood.

We do, however, differ on a number of points I look forward to addressing, and will get tot his as opportunity allows.


God bless.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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Point of interest......

Why were the disciples gathered together on Pentecost to begin with?
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
Res. and life, you MUST FIRST, interpret according to the immediate context. The meaning of Jesus of "born of water" is the natural birth from our mother, as nicodemus took it to mean born of his mother. And Jesus confirm this interpretation by saying,"that which is born of the flesh is flesh" Our Mother bore us with a sinful heart. BUT,"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The Spirit bore us a righteous heart. Our mothers mad e us a body; But the Spirit MADE us a righteous spirit. The "seed" of man produces sin; But, the "seed " of God produces a righteous nature. Obviously, if the saints of the O.T. were not "born of God" they would not be saved.!! Love to all, Hoffco
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Point of interest......

Why were the disciples gathered together on Pentecost to begin with?
They were told to await the Promise of the Father which they had heard of Christ (were previously taught about):


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Res. and life, you MUST FIRST, interpret according to the immediate context. The meaning of Jesus of "born of water" is the natural birth from our mother, as nicodemus took it to mean born of his mother. And Jesus confirm this interpretation by saying,"that which is born of the flesh is flesh" Our Mother bore us with a sinful heart. BUT,"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The Spirit bore us a righteous heart. Our mothers mad e us a body; But the Spirit MADE us a righteous spirit. The "seed" of man produces sin; But, the "seed " of God produces a righteous nature. Obviously, if the saints of the O.T. were not "born of God" they would not be saved.!! Love to all, Hoffco
We know that being born of the water is not a reference to natural birth because natural birth is something that, unlike the wind, can be observed.


John 3King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Christ clarifies that natural birth is not in view, for, "that which is flesh is flesh," and we know what it means to be born of flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit, which is something that is not visible to the eye, like the wind.

This...

John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


...also rules out physical birth in regards to being born of God.

Regeneration is God's work, and man plays no part in it.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Good morning, all.

While casually browsing of the internet as I drink my morning coffee, I found myself here. I signed up and registered an account on this forum, specifically to put in my 2 cents on this topic (which will probably be much more than 2 cents). And I'm not too busy in the office today :).

I'm not much for internet discussions or forum chat, as I know how they tend to disintegrate into meaningless name calling and hurt feelings and anger and so forth, but I'm going to give it a go this time as it is a Christian oriented forum. This is my very first post on this forum.
So you do not usually frequent Christian Forums?



***Please read the following with an open mind, without the theological baggage that everyone one of us carry with us. I truly believe this is the only way to understand the scriptures.
I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you have embraced a position that is clearly rebuked by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Sadducees also believed men ceased to exist after death, and the Lord's conclusion was "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures."

He told them, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." This was not a reference to physical life, but the life we see in Scripture that we usually call the spirit.


The question - referring to being "born again" before Pentecost or not, is a question that has a lengthy explanation. I will be as brief as possible in articulating what I believe to be true as I understand the scriptures. It will, I REPEAT, it will rub some of you the wrong way. It did as well to me when I first learned and understood and believed (with great resistance) some time ago. Please remember thus: The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and through Him we have redemption of sins through his blood sacrifice on the cross, and our belief in him is the only way in which we have the hope of salvation. I'm sure we can all agree on that previous sentence. It is my foundation, as I'm sure it is all of yours. Now, with that being said, let me finally get to the question at hand.
I would take issue with saying "the blood sacrifice." The term "blood" is euphemistic for death. His Sacrifice involved His dying, not bleeding. So if you understand it that way, then we would be in agreement as to how men are saved.


This question cannot be understood without correcting what is a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens to ALL people when they die. In short, they die. We do not have an immortal soul. We do not go to heaven when we die. We do not go to hell when we die. We die, and we will only have an 'afterlife' if we are resurrected. If there is no resurrection, we will decay in our graves. Consider the original decree of God to the man after he sinned in the garden.
We distinguish between God being "immortal" and spirits being immortal in that only God is Eternal, having neither beginning nor end, whereas all spirits do have a beginning.

And there is much in Scripture that makes it clear that spirits do not pass out of existence.

In Luke 16 the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man does not have these two men, who have died, as ceasing to exist. Rather, the Lord shows that there is a conscious existence after death, and for the Rich Man, it is one of torment in Hades.

Revelation teaches that Hades will yield up those spirits and at the time of the Great White Throne they are resurrected bodily, and cast into Hell (the lake of fire).

David understood that he would go to his child that had died, which, if that meant simply lying in a grave with the child, David would have had more to mourn than he did when the child yet lived.


By the sweat of your faceYou will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
All Annihilationist's views are founded on the very error you point out...thinking that the "soul" is an immaterial aspect of man which dies or goes into the grave, so you are a little different. Can I ask if you once viewed the soul as an immaterial aspect of man and have since changed your view because it dismantles another view of yours?

The Old Testament is by and large dealing with the temporal/physical. While we could understand those who do not have the New Testament embracing a view of Annihilation and Soul Sleep, there is no excuse for anyone who has access to the New Testament.



Now, we as Christians have grown up believing that the previous decree of God means that man died "spiritually" on that day. But the scripture never states that.
Christ teaches it explicitly in John 6:


John 6:52-54

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


He is not speaking about physical life, He is speaking about Eternal Life, which only God has. This does not deny that man has both body and spirit, for Christ also validates this here:

Luke 24:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]37 [/SUP]But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

[SUP]39 [/SUP]Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


He is not saying "What, don't you know that a spirit ceases to exist after physical death?"

So we do not say that spiritual life is a matter of having a spirit, or confuse that with eternal life. The spiritual death men died in Adam was a separation, not of body and spirit, but of man's spirit with God's Spirit, Who is Eternal Life Himself.


Now, we as Christians have grown up believing that the previous decree of God means that man died "spiritually" on that day. But the scripture never states that.
We also see that Paul distinguishes between the spirit of man and "spiritual things:"


1 Corinthians 2:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So we see that man does have a spirit, yet that spirit is separated from the Spirit of God, and it is only through receiving the Spirit of God again that man has eternal life and can understand the things of God.

That is the death man died in Adam.


Continued...
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
We have added that in. Man died physically, naturally, and the process of death began on that day (literally translated it should read "dying, thou dost die" or "unto death, you shall be dying"). It is a process, as we are taught from Gen 3: 17-19, it does not say that the man died on that very day, as some will argue. Similar parts of speech can be found in 1 Kings 2:37. God also told Abraham, literally, "in blessing I will bless you", and "in multiplying I will multiply you". It is a figure of speech that guarantees the outcome of death, or in the other examples, blessing, or multiplying.
Adam didn't die naturally, physically...the day he sinned. His separation from God did not deprive him of his essential make-up, being body and spirit.

Animals have spirits, yet they are not one with God, as we are when we are born again.



We are not spiritual beings, the scripture never states that we are spiritual beings.
It does:


Zechariah 12:1

King James Version (KJV)

12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


1 Corinthians 6:20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 4:12

King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


And one more, for now:


Hebrews 12:23

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Under Old Testament Economies men did not go to be with the Lord when they died, because they had not received the promises of God in regards to Redemption, meaning, they had not received the Reconciliation, and were thus, according to the Writer of Hebrews...not made perfect (complete).

As in Luke 16 men went to Hades, there to await deliverance through Christ, who would, with His own blood (death), obtain eternal redemption for us, and redeem the transgressions of the Old Testament Saints:



Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Unquestionably men have spirits, but, like animals have no union with God, even so natural man has no spiritual union with God. That is the spiritual death Adam brought upon the entire human race, and that is what Christ rectifies through His Blood.


Conversely, the scriptures repetitively declare that we are natural and earthy. Remember, we are a product of the dust, or the actual literal soil of the ground, and are animated by the breath of life from God, and the union of those 2 things are that we became a "living soul". (Nephesh in Hebrew). Oh, and by the way, the animals also are called living souls before Genesis 2:7, because they too have an earthy created body from the ground and have life in them because of the breath of God. We don't have an immaterial and immortal part of us that resides inside of us called a soul. We ARE a LIVING SOUL. It is the union of the breath and the dirt of the ground.

The "breath of life" from God is in fact the spiritual aspect of man.

I agree, man does not have a soul, but is a soul, but...that does not negate that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

Paul makes that clear:


2 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[SUP]7 [/SUP](For we walk by faith, not by sight)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Paul did not teach that men die when they physically died, but that they were "naked," meaning they do not have that physical "tabernacle."


We are not spiritual until after we are resurrected. Consider 1 Cor. 15:
Sorry, but 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of the body of man, and in no way implies a cessation of consciousness or being after physical death.

We are made alive in the physical body through regeneration. Regeneration and glorification are two entirely separate issues.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
In view is that we will be raised bodily as Christ was. Again, a separate issue from the spirit of a man.

Could you tell me what you think happened when Christ died? Do you think He ceased to exist? His "spirit" died?



The English word, "soul", has a certain connotation that we all have grown to understand, as being an immaterial and immortal 'divine spark' that resides in all humanity. That is a concept that is not scriptural. 'Divine Spark' is not in the bible. This is derived from Greek philosophy, which was and still is influenced on Christian theology. Before Jesus was even born, Plato and Aristotle were heavily influencing all in that region of the world the concept of "soul", that it was the "purity of God", and that it was housed in an evil "prison" of the body. Death was considered to be a great release of the prison of this shell of a body, containing a soul. Read the account of the suicide of Socrates by Plato in 'Phaedo', and compare its peaceful consummation and 'release of the soul' with the agony and pain of the death of Jesus. Such concepts are not scriptural, but are Greek philosophy that we still are effected by today.
I would agree in large part, because I view man as depraved, though he still retains a modicum of separation from animals, being made in God's image, though now made in the image and likeness of his fathers.

And I also agree that we do well to reject philosophies of men, and stick with what is taught in Scripture.



Consider the following passages of scripture as they relate to the destiny of mankind.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (NASB) 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Psalm 146:1-4 (NASB) Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! 2 I will praise the Lord while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (note: A Psalm of David - also see the next passage..)

Psalm 6:5 (NASB) 4 Return, O Lord, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. 5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
(note: King David was grieved at the very thought of dying because he knew that in death, he would no longer be able to praise the Lord. Oh that we would have that same attitude, to have a heart that loved God so much that we would miss it if we died because we would no longer be able to praise him! Don't you thing that if King David died and went to heaven, he would be praising God? He's not, cause he's not there. See the next scriptural evidence of this.)

Acts 2:29-35 (NASB) 29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (-Note: If King David, prophet of the most high God, a man after Gods own heart, the ancestor of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ, the one on whose throne the Son of God shall sit upon and rule over the earth at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God holding the scepter of righteousness - If he isn't in heaven - what hope do YOU have? What hope do I have?) But our hope is the same, resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ, but not before then.

Acts 13:36-37 (NASB) 36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay

Psalm 104:29 (NASB) (Speaking of all of Gods creation, man and beasts in Psalm 104) “You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit (breath), they expire and return to their dust.”

Psalm 115:16-17 (NASB) The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth He has given to the sons of men. 17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor do any who go down into silence

John 3:13 (NASB) 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

John 11:23-26, 43-44. (Easier to read all of John 11) 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (notice that Martha knew her eschatology! She knew that it was only in the resurrection that Lazarus would rise from the dead!) 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die (into the age, lit. - Translators left out this entire phrase). Do you believe this?” 43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus *said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

1 Tim. 6:14-16 (NASB) 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (whom is the only one that is immortal?)

Not a single verse or passage here supports your position.

Christ refutes annihilation and cessation of existence after death here:


Matthew 22:23-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And last of all the woman died also.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

[SUP]32 [/SUP]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Some will also wrest this teaching to mean that men had eternal life, but the point here is that men have spirits that do not die, they remain alive.

And the Resurrection of the Dead, which the Sadducees also rejected, is a bodily resurrection, not the resurrection of the New Birth, which is spiritual.


---- man this is getting long. I apologize, but like I said at the beginning, not a quick answer. ----
It's okay, lol, nothing wrong with long posts. It shows you are serious in your convictions.

And I agree, much has to be discussed to thresh out whether men were born again before Pentecost.

I might ask if you would like to critique my responses to those who seek to impose regeneration in the Old Testament.


I could go on and on quoting scriptures that say that when man dies, he dies - and the only hope that he has is the resurrection of the dead.
You could, but, just like everyone else who teaches Soul Sleep and Annihilation, you will be forced to leave out all relevant New Testament passages and teachings, and build your presentation primarily through poorly understood Old Testament passages.

While I commend you for understanding the Dichotomy of man's existence, I will also point out that you are confusing bodily resurrection with spiritual resurrection. All spirits of men remain in existence after physical death, and all men will be resurrected, but, only those who are born again are, in this physical frame, made alive in Christ, and that life is specific to being in Christ.

We are Baptized into Him, and thus is the death all men are born into annulled.

Except we eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, we have no life in us. We have physical life, but it is a mistake to equate physical life to spiritual life in God. Just as it is a mistake to equate regeneration to glorification.


There are so very many more. What does Job ask in Job 14? He asks the question, "If a man dies, will he live again?" Notice that he does NOT ask, 'If a man dies, will he continue to live?' or 'Where does a man go when he dies?'
Job speaks of physical life.

The Old Testament is within a primarily physical framework.

We know spirits of men live on, though, a few examples being that of the calling up (not calling down) of Samuel. Another would be Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. We know Moses was physically dead, yet there he is meeting with Christ on that mount.

And that is all I can get to today, R, but again thanks for the posts. I will get to the second when time allows.


God bless.
 
R

resurrectionandlife

Guest
But why that specific day?


KohenMatt -

First of all - ROYALS! (I live in Kansas City)

To answer your question - Why that specific day?

The time between PASSOVER and PENTECOST was called the Feast of Weeks according to the Old covenant. It started the day after Passover, and was a 'jubilee of days'. That is, 7 weeks of 7 days. This time period is called 'Shavout' by Jews. The 50th day after Passover at some point was called 'Pentecost', meaning "50th". It was to be an everlasting statute to the Jews to offer a grain offering to the Lord at this time according to Leviticus 23. Thus, they would have been required by the Law to have this festival or celebration on this very day.

At this point in time, the Jews would have still been under the Law. This is actually the very day that the New Covenant came into establishment. With the descent of the Holy Spirit, the New Covenant took effect. That is why we celebrate the Passover, which is the sign of the New Covenant. The Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant. The events of the New Covenant took place on Pentecost - Acts 2.

Therefore, one would do well to understand that the OLD COVENANT was in effect from Exodus 19-Acts 2, and the NEW COVENANT began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 - today.

Now for an interesting bit of information - The day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 took place on the same calendar day as the giving of the Law in Exodus 19-20. The inauguration of the OLD COVENANT and the inauguration of the NEW COVENANT happened of the same calendar day. The OLD COVENANT - the giving of the Law; The NEW COVENANT - the giving of the Spirit!

And what happened at that day of Pentecost? The apostles began to speak in tongues. In Exodus 19:16-19:19, the Lord descended on the mountain and spoke to the from the fire with 'voices' (literally in vs.16 and 19). In Acts 2 the Spirit descended on the apostles and they appeared to have 'tongues as of fire'. And they spoke in tongues and everyone around them understood them in their own languages and dialects. This was a miracle of God and was a sign or was an affirmation that what the apostles were going to proclaim was the truth (with the accompanying power to go with it).

Much more could be said on the similarities between the events or the unfolding of the OLD/NEW covenants, but I hope that I have sufficiently answered your question. And I have to meet my family at a dr's appt in like 30 minutes!!!

Have a great day!
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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Let me switch gears for a minute here, for all of us whom believe that when we die, we don't really die, but that we have an immortal soul that floats up into heaven to be with the Lord if we are believers in him. It is interesting that Jesus himself states in John 8 that the devil, or Satan is a "liar and the father of lies". What was the very first thing that Satan said and lied about? Where would we find that? In Genesis 3, in the garden of course! And what does the liar and father of lies say to the woman? "You shall surely not die." And we have believed it ever since. In different manners and in different ways, the original lie of Satan still has its influence to this very day. How evil and genius is Satan, the god of this age (2 Cor. 4)?More than we are willing to admit, I'm afraid. So, who do you believe? God's word, or Satan?

I realize that many reading this, if you've even got this far ;), are probably pulling out your hair and may be calling me a heretic. Please remember how I started this post in my first underlined sentence. We could go on and on about the natural constitution of man and his destiny (which is unconditional death), but we still have yet to answer the question. What does it mean to be "born again"?

We understand the phrase, to be "born again", from John 3. Most of us are very familiar with this passage of scripture. I'm going to now explain what I understand what Jesus is referring to in John chapter 3, and it may or may not give you different thoughts on the subject of being "born again". Please bear with me (again). And again, I'm being as brief as possible.

Nicodemus was no fool. He was a Pharisee, and the teacher of Israel. A ruler of the Jews. Why then does Jesus say, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” Why does Jesus reprimand Nicodemus for not understanding what he was being told? Many commentators will say that the teaching in John 3 is something new, a new revelation by Jesus. But is it? If it is, then how can Jesus reprimand him? The answer is that he couldn’t, and this teaching is something that Nicodemus should have understood, being THE teacher of Israel. The definite article in Greek before ‘teacher’ tells us that Nicodemus was indeed a very important man, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews in fact. And where would Jesus expect Nicodemus to go, to understand what he was saying? To the epistles of Paul? To the teachings of Peter or James or John? Of course not, for these men have not yet put the pen to paper! Where is the only place Nicodemus could have gone to understand that one must be born of WATER and SPIRIT to enter the KINGDOM OF GOD? The Hebrew scriptures, of course!
If this scenario of entrance into the Kingdom of God is not found anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures, then Nicodemus could say something to the effect of, ‘I don’t understand, Jesus, because it isn’t found anywhere in the scriptures.’ But it IS, and Nicodemus SHOULD have known it.

The key to understanding John 3, the location of Christianity’s most favorite verse that can be recited by young and old alike, probably even by many of those who don’t believe in Jesus the Son of God as the savior who died for our sins and rose again, is to understand to what Jesus was referring to in the Hebrew scriptures when speaking to Nicodemus. The ONLY place in the Hebrew scriptures that the formula of WATER, SPIRIT and KINGDOM and in that order can be found is… Ezekiel 36:22-37:28. And this prophecy by Ezekiel is concerning… THE DAVIDIC KINGDOM, the future Kingdom of God.

Ez. 37:24, “24 “My servant David (Jesus Christ) will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.” … and so on until the end of chapter 37. When will these things take place? At the resurrection! That is what it means to be born of water and spirit!

Of water: Ez. 36:25, “25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.” Of spirit: Ez. 37:5-9, 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” (Hmmm, sounds a lot like John 3:8, doesn't it -- "wind=spirit=breath" same word in Greek pneuma, as in 'pneumatic' in English, the movement of air..)
And again in verses 13-14, “13 Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 I will put My spirit (same word in Hebrew 'ruach' as breath - same word as in vs.5-9... just like it is in Greek) within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’”

'Breath’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same word in both Greek and Hebrew. It’s probably even indicated in the footnotes at the bottom of the page of your bible. One must be born of water and spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God!

It is a water/spirit event. One preposition governs both nouns, in that I mean that it does not say “of water and of the spirit” (as it does incorrectly in the KJV), but that it says in the Greek and other English versions, correctly, “of water and the spirit” or “of water and spirit”. John 3, the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, is about resurrection, and Nicodemus should have known it, (hence the reprimand), especially since the reference Jesus was making was to such a prominent part of the scriptures, on dealing with the New Covenant as we see at the end of chapter 37 of Ezekiel, “26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”


What then does it mean to be “born again” in this context! The Greek work ‘anothen’ can be correctly translated as ‘again’ or ‘above’. Let me share with you why I am inclined to say that it should be correctly translated as ‘above’ rather than ‘again’. Firstly, and most simply, God is doing this to the whole house of Israel, to vindicate his holy name (Ez. 36). And where is he doing this from? Well, he’s doing this from above. It is an adverb of place, not of time. Nicodemus was thinking incorrectly when he perceived Jesus as meaning ‘again’, thinking a man had to enter the womb a second time. We know that’s not correct. Also, consider how the same word, ‘anothen’, is used in every other instance in the gospel of John (since the apostle is the user of the word). Later in verse 31 of chapter 3: 31 , “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.“ Above, not again. And also John 19:11, “11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above;… Also in John 19:23, “23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece.” In this example, ‘anothen’ is translated ‘outer’, designating “outer garments” (the garments that are above the rest of the clothing), not the ‘again garments’! That is every other instance the term is used in the gospel of John. It is more consistent and logical to have translated it ‘above’ throughout the Nicodemus conversation as well.

The only thing different, or new, that Jesus was saying in this discourse, is that he was now equating being born of water and of spirit with being “born from above”, and Nicodemus did not put that together. The phrase, “born from above”, is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. Being “born from above”, means we are resurrected.

Still not convinced? What does John chapter 3 immediately follow? John chapter 2, of course. And what just happened in John 2? You will remember that Jesus cleansed the temple. And this of course angered the Jews who asked him, 'by what authority do you do these things'? 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

The immediate previous context of John 3 has to do with resurrection, from death to life, in John 2. There is no other explanation for what being "born again" or "born from above" means.

Lastly, (and finally), let me give you one more thing to think about. One verse we seem to just read right over in the John 3 discourse is this: 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up". It is important to realize that what Jesus is referring to here is that all important passage in Number 21:5 and following:

"The people spoke against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.” 6 The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and you; intercede with the Lord, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."

What is Jesus equating being "born again/above" with when he quotes Numbers 21? It is, quite simply - Death to Life. If you were bitten by a fiery serpent, what would happen? You were sure to die. What must you have done to live? Look at the object that got had provided for life, so that you would not die. The same is true for Jesus Christ. YOU AND I ARE DYING. And the only hope we have is to look at the object that God has provided for salvation, Jesus Christ.

No one is 'Born Again' or more accurately, "born from above", until the resurrection. This will happen at the end of the age - the beginning of the next age, the inauguration of the Parousia of the Christs Kingdom. I did not continue to get on to the explanation of the present age and the age to come, or the promise of "zoe aionion" (eternal life), to properly understand the age to come. This post would be doubled in length. I think this is long enough now. Read the very last verse of the book of Daniel, to learn of the prophet Daniels future expectation, and when it was that he would come back to life (and we whom believe as well).

God bless you all - and again, sorry for this ridiculously long post. I'm sure this will get plenty of response, but don't expect that I will be able to be as long winded in my responses. I started this 5 hours ago!
Yawn...

I was bored after the first few lines...try making your posts a LOT shorter! :p
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
But why that specific day?
I think it can be viewed as significant in relation to the Church in regards to first-fruits. This day would see the Church created with it's first members, beginning with the disciples and then those who came to saving faith in Christ that day.


Deuteronomy 16

King James Version (KJV)
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God giveth thee:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But at the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to place his name there.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and thou shalt observe and do these statutes.


What better day to celebrate deliverance?

I think we see in v.11 the promise of deliverance for all families of the earth, as promised to Abraham.

One thing about Pentecost was there was a concentration of people gathered specifically to honor God, and Acts 2 shows a diversity of people coming to celebrate. We see tones of "gathering" in that celebration, which speaks of the gathering Christ does in building His Church.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
Let me switch gears for a minute here, for all of us whom believe that when we die, we don't really die, but that we have an immortal soul that floats up into heaven to be with the Lord if we are believers in him. It is interesting that Jesus himself states in John 8 that the devil, or Satan is a "liar and the father of lies". What was the very first thing that Satan said and lied about? Where would we find that? In Genesis 3, in the garden of course! And what does the liar and father of lies say to the woman? "You shall surely not die." And we have believed it ever since. In different manners and in different ways, the original lie of Satan still has its influence to this very day. How evil and genius is Satan, the god of this age (2 Cor. 4)?More than we are willing to admit, I'm afraid. So, who do you believe? God's word, or Satan?
That the spirits of men do not cease to exist is rather basic in Scripture, verified by Christ Himself.

In regards to Satan lying, that is a given, but, as with all false teachings, that does not mean that there is not truth mixed in. You are saying, I'm afraid, the same thing that Satan states, meaning Satan has physical death in view, which turned out to be true, they did not die physically that day. Both you and he have the wrong death in view.

"We" have not believed Satan's lie "ever since," seeing that we have a very basic teaching that states the wages of sin is death. We see a physical application, and a spiritual application, meaning that men suffer both. Since Adam's fall, all men are born dead according to Christ. While they have a spirit, that is not to be equated to spiritual life as bestowed in regeneration, which as mentioned in the last post, is the Reconciliatory Work which restores men to the life lost in Adam.

Satan was correct in that they did not die physically that day, and something else Satan said was true after all:


Genesis 3

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:



The question we ask is did God lie in saying that man would die if he disobeyed? We know He did not. Here, God makes it clear that men would still not die if they had access to the tree of life.

Does this conflict with God saying...


Genesis 2:16-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


...?

Not at all, if we understand that physical life is not in view.

If we say that the death was physical, then we make it a matter of death was not truly the result of disobedience and eating of that tree, because we then have to add to this "If you eat of the tree then I will have to kick you out of the garden which is the source of life for you.

What life?

Physical life?

No, spiritual life.

You correctly equate "breath" and "Spirit," for this is how man was created in the image and likeness of God, his body formed, and God breathed Spirit into Adam.

Now, consider that God is the source of spiritual life, not the tree of life. The tree of life provided only physical life, and this is not the death God refers to when He states "In the day you eat of it you shall surely die."

The penalty in view is death, and that is what happened. Physical death is further addressed in that they were removed from the source of physical provision, being expelled from the Garden.

So when we approach the New Birth, we are made alive, not physically, but spiritually. That is the result of new birth, which is accomplished by the Reconciliation effected when we are Baptized into Christ, which has two primary aspects:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The first in the creation of the new creature, which features the cleansing that takes place when we are born again. That is why regeneration is spoken of in terms of "washing."

The second is the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which most will apply to work the Holy Ghost performs on the believer, but that is covered by the washing of regeneration, so we can understand that in view is Reconciliation, meaning...the relationship between man and God is renewed through the Eternal Indwelling.

All men have physical life, but not the spiritual life which is directly related to salvation. All spirits will continue in existence according to the Word of God, either eternally abiding with God or eternally abiding in the separation that already exists between man and God when we are born.

Scripture does not teach Soul Sleep or Annihilation, it teaches conscious existence after physical death and for the lost, like the Rich Man of Christ's teaching in Luke 16, there is torment; for the saved, both Old and New Testament Eras, there is relationship with God (though we distinguish between the Two in regards to their destination after death: prior to the Cross, Abraham's Bosom, which is also called Paradise in Jewish Tradition, and for the lost of all Ages, that part of Hades which holds torment for those who have rejected the Word of God) that is secure.


I realize that many reading this, if you've even got this far ;), are probably pulling out your hair and may be calling me a heretic.
Not at all. I have no doubt you are sincere in your beliefs, and while we might call the views of others heresy, that doesn't mean we cannot examine the basis of their beliefs to see if it is reasonable. While I do not find your views to be compatible with a fuller understanding of Doctrine concerning New Birth, I usually reserve "heresy" primarily for error concerning the Person of Christ, meaning those who deny His Deity.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Please remember how I started this post in my first underlined sentence. We could go on and on about the natural constitution of man and his destiny (which is unconditional death), but we still have yet to answer the question. What does it mean to be "born again"?
Actually, the thread has discussed this in some detail, and some of what you have presented resembles strongly arguments already presented.

The following is an example of taking an exclusive text (John 3) and trying to explain regeneration out of that singular passage.

But John 3 is simply one of the components to a sound understanding of Regeneration, for we have to bring all relevant passages to the table, or we will do what you have done, make an exclusive teaching which fails to reconcile every relevant passage.


We understand the phrase, to be "born again", from John 3.
No, we understand the Doctrine of Regeneration by including all relevant passages.


Most of us are very familiar with this passage of scripture. I'm going to now explain what I understand what Jesus is referring to in John chapter 3, and it may or may not give you different thoughts on the subject of being "born again". Please bear with me (again). And again, I'm being as brief as possible.

Nicodemus was no fool. He was a Pharisee, and the teacher of Israel. A ruler of the Jews. Why then does Jesus say, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” Why does Jesus reprimand Nicodemus for not understanding what he was being told?
You actually answer this question properly, in that you say Nicodemus should have known what the Lord was speaking about. And you rightly identify the key passage in understanding this, which is of course Ezekiel 36 (and in particular vv.22-27).

But you continue the same mistake you make as pointed out in the previous response to the first post, in that you confuse bodily resurrection with spiritual resurrection. Ezekiel 36 deals with Israel spiritual rebirth, and Ezekiel 37 deals with their physical resurrection as a Nation, which ties into God's promise of Restoration of the Nation, which is a basic teaching of Prophecy.


Many commentators will say that the teaching in John 3 is something new, a new revelation by Jesus. But is it? If it is, then how can Jesus reprimand him?
I haven't actually seen "many commentators" say Christ was teaching something new, in the sense that being born from above was a concept not spoken of in the Old Testament.

When Christ taught Nicodemus, he should have immediately thought of those passages which taught restoration. But Nicodemus, like you, imply a physical nature to being born of God (which is what the Lord is speaking about when He states "Ye must be born from above").

One suggestion by a commentator once was that Nicodemus' response was not speaking about physically re-entering the womb, but was euphemistic of a man "starting all over again," which if that were true, we still have the same concept being presented by Nicodemus, which is a physical view of what the Lord had just stated.

Christ corrects him and makes it clear that in view is a spiritual birth, not a physical birth:


John 3:6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


And we see in both Nicodemus' response and the Lord's correction the concept of birth, the question now being what does the Lord mean by being "born from above?"



The answer is that he couldn’t,
But He did. That is clear in the text.


and this teaching is something that Nicodemus should have understood, being THE teacher of Israel.
Agreed.

He should have acknowledged the teachings that have God central to restoration and rebirth, rather than placing a physical/temporal connotation to what the Lord states.


The definite article in Greek before ‘teacher’ tells us that Nicodemus was indeed a very important man, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews in fact. And where would Jesus expect Nicodemus to go, to understand what he was saying? To the epistles of Paul? To the teachings of Peter or James or John? Of course not, for these men have not yet put the pen to paper! Where is the only place Nicodemus could have gone to understand that one must be born of WATER and SPIRIT to enter the KINGDOM OF GOD? The Hebrew scriptures, of course!
Agreed.


If this scenario of entrance into the Kingdom of God is not found anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures, then Nicodemus could say something to the effect of, ‘I don’t understand, Jesus, because it isn’t found anywhere in the scriptures.’ But it IS, and Nicodemus SHOULD have known it.
That is precisely the basis for the Lord's rebuke.

However, we also have to account for the Mystery that surrounded Christ and the Work He would perform, so while we do not excuse the ridiculous nature of Nicodemus' response, neither would we imply that Nicodemus would have had understanding as we do now, having at our hands the revelation of the Mystery of Christ in the New Testament.



The key to understanding John 3, the location of Christianity’s most favorite verse that can be recited by young and old alike, probably even by many of those who don’t believe in Jesus the Son of God as the savior who died for our sins and rose again, is to understand to what Jesus was referring to in the Hebrew scriptures when speaking to Nicodemus. The ONLY place in the Hebrew scriptures that the formula of WATER, SPIRIT and KINGDOM and in that order can be found is… Ezekiel 36:22-37:28. And this prophecy by Ezekiel is concerning… THE DAVIDIC KINGDOM, the future Kingdom of God.
Agreed.


Ez. 37:24, “24 “My servant David (Jesus Christ) will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.” … and so on until the end of chapter 37. When will these things take place? At the resurrection! That is what it means to be born of water and spirit!
Not agreed, because this speaks of physical resurrection, rather than spiritual.


Of water: Ez. 36:25, “25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.”
And the "water" we understand to be the cleansing agent in salvation is of course the Word of God, without which no man shall be saved.


Of spirit: Ez. 37:5-9, 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” (Hmmm, sounds a lot like John 3:8, doesn't it -- "wind=spirit=breath" same word in Greek pneuma, as in 'pneumatic' in English, the movement of air..)
This is a picture of the Lost Sheep of Israel. They were, when Christ came, in a state of destruction, and that state still exists for Israel as a Nation.


And again in verses 13-14, “13 Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 I will put My spirit (same word in Hebrew 'ruach' as breath - same word as in vs.5-9... just like it is in Greek) within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’”

'Breath’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same word in both Greek and Hebrew.
And the timeline of events coincide with the Tribulation, rather than a general resurrection of the dead.

We see spiritual life in Ezekiel 36, followed by physical restoration in ch.37, then in ch.39 we see the defeat of Israel's enemies (the enemies of God, i.e., the Supper of the Great God, Revelation 19), then a period of cleansing in the land, then the establishing of the Kingdom.

Ezekiel follows the same timeline Revelation does.

Spiritual rebirth leads to physical rebirth of the Nation.


It’s probably even indicated in the footnotes at the bottom of the page of your bible. One must be born of water and spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God!
Probably.


It is a water/spirit event. One preposition governs both nouns, in that I mean that it does not say “of water and of the spirit” (as it does incorrectly in the KJV), but that it says in the Greek and other English versions, correctly, “of water and the spirit” or “of water and spirit”.
It doesn't change the nature of the teaching, though. It is a moot distinction.


John 3, the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, is about resurrection,
Yes, spiritual resurrection.

Bodily resurrection will be a visible event. Perhaps not by the world (The Rapture), but, by those participating in it.


and Nicodemus should have known it, (hence the reprimand), especially since the reference Jesus was making was to such a prominent part of the scriptures, on dealing with the New Covenant as we see at the end of chapter 37 of Ezekiel, “26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
And this unfolds in two primary ways: the Millennial Kingdom; the Eternal State.


What then does it mean to be “born again” in this context! The Greek work ‘anothen’ can be correctly translated as ‘again’ or ‘above’. Let me share with you why I am inclined to say that it should be correctly translated as ‘above’ rather than ‘again’. Firstly, and most simply, God is doing this to the whole house of Israel, to vindicate his holy name (Ez. 36). And where is he doing this from? Well, he’s doing this from above. It is an adverb of place, not of time. Nicodemus was thinking incorrectly when he perceived Jesus as meaning ‘again’, thinking a man had to enter the womb a second time.
The concept of "born again" is not found in John exclusively, which is why I suggest to you that your view is seriously lacking in not taking all relevant passages into consideration. Whether you can successfully remove the concept of New Birth from John 3 or not (and I do not think you can) is irrelevant, because we can see that being born again is taught:


1 Peter 1:23

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You say we need to back up to John 2 to keep this in context, but I would suggest to you that we also need to back up to John One:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The concept of new birth is seen in that men are born of God through receiving Christ, and in this way become the sons of God.

And unfortunately that is all the time I have right now, so I will have to finish this response when time allows. Have to go out of town this evening and this is not something I want to finish on a tablet (taplet, lol), so it may be a few days before I get the chance to finish this.

God bless.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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I'm interested in the reason for that specific day.
KohenMatt -

First of all - ROYALS! (I live in Kansas City)

To answer your question - Why that specific day?

The time between PASSOVER and PENTECOST was called the Feast of Weeks according to the Old covenant. It started the day after Passover, and was a 'jubilee of days'. That is, 7 weeks of 7 days. This time period is called 'Shavout' by Jews. The 50th day after Passover at some point was called 'Pentecost', meaning "50th". It was to be an everlasting statute to the Jews to offer a grain offering to the Lord at this time according to Leviticus 23. Thus, they would have been required by the Law to have this festival or celebration on this very day.

At this point in time, the Jews would have still been under the Law. This is actually the very day that the New Covenant came into establishment. With the descent of the Holy Spirit, the New Covenant took effect. That is why we celebrate the Passover, which is the sign of the New Covenant. The Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant. The events of the New Covenant took place on Pentecost - Acts 2.

Therefore, one would do well to understand that the OLD COVENANT was in effect from Exodus 19-Acts 2, and the NEW COVENANT began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 - today.

Now for an interesting bit of information - The day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 took place on the same calendar day as the giving of the Law in Exodus 19-20. The inauguration of the OLD COVENANT and the inauguration of the NEW COVENANT happened of the same calendar day. The OLD COVENANT - the giving of the Law; The NEW COVENANT - the giving of the Spirit!

And what happened at that day of Pentecost? The apostles began to speak in tongues. In Exodus 19:16-19:19, the Lord descended on the mountain and spoke to the from the fire with 'voices' (literally in vs.16 and 19). In Acts 2 the Spirit descended on the apostles and they appeared to have 'tongues as of fire'. And they spoke in tongues and everyone around them understood them in their own languages and dialects. This was a miracle of God and was a sign or was an affirmation that what the apostles were going to proclaim was the truth (with the accompanying power to go with it).

Much more could be said on the similarities between the events or the unfolding of the OLD/NEW covenants, but I hope that I have sufficiently answered your question. And I have to meet my family at a dr's appt in like 30 minutes!!!

Have a great day!
There you go.

Shavuot celebrates the day God gave Israel His commandments.
The apostles were gathered together to celebrate that day.
God met with them on that day for the same reason He met with Moses: to give a new manifestation of His presence.

Both days show God's presence.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
There you go.

Shavuot celebrates the day God gave Israel His commandments.
The apostles were gathered together to celebrate that day.
God met with them on that day for the same reason He met with Moses: to give a new manifestation of His presence.

Both days show God's presence.
But we see a significant difference between the Two Covenants in regards to God's presence among His people.


That is one significant element of New Testament relationship with God.

God bless.
 
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popeye

Guest
That depends on what you mean by born again. If you equate being born again with being saved; then yes.

To me, being born again refers to the Holy Spirit's indwelling. Before Pentecost that was unknown; so NO.
nope. They did have a measure of the HS before pentecost. The same as today,salvation = measure of HS.......Baptism of HS = the second work as it did then.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
 
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