What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[SovereignGrace]

John 5:25 is speaking of the resurrection of the dead to eternal life - v21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will. v24 Surely, surely, I say unto you He that hears my word, (faith comes by hearing) and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 3:16-18) For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself . . . v28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. v29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

And those He raises to spiritual life He does so through His will and not theirs. Ever see a dead man refuse to be raised? The bones in Ezekiel 37, did they refuse to be raised to life? Did Lazarus refuse the Christ and say "Naw, I'm good", and go back to the tomb?

He raises to life from the dead those who had no will to exercise. They were dead in transgressions and sins. Dead folk have no will.

John 11:15 Lazarus was given back his life to the intent that they may believe. v25) I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes on me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. v37) And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? v38) Jesus therefore again groaning in himself came to the grave . . . (he groaned in himself because of their unbelief) 40) Jesus said unto her, Didn't I say unto you that if you would believe, you should see the glory of God. 41) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42) And I know that you hear me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that you have sent me. . . .

What the Christ did naturally to Lazarus He does so to those who are spiritually dead. When He calls them, they come. Period. End of story.

And yes some believed and some did not - you would say that those that believed were bestowed "irresistible" grace in order to believe . . .

No. I didn't say it, the bible does.

I would say that those who believed received salvation because of their belief due to God offering the gift of salvation through his grace because we don't deserve it. God offers salvation by his grace because we deserve death - that plan for salvation is available to all people through faith in Jesus Christ - God's plan is not for a select few, Jesus Christ did not die for a select few . . . that plan is available to ALL . . . Jesus Christ died for ALL.

The resurrection to eternal life is available through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is evidence of God's mercy, compassion, and grace unto all men.

Look at it like this. You come upon a traffic accident and you see the EMS giving someone there CPR. In this CPR, they give them chest compressions, they no longer do mouth-to-mouth, and administer IV meds to stimulate their heart. Did they receive CPR? Absolutely. However, they did not hold their hands out to accept it or hold them out and say 'no thanks'. They were dead and had someone else help them in their dead state.

That's how God works. We were dead and unable to respond to the gospel. It takes God to unilaterally move and impart Spiritual life unto us. We received it, even though we didn't have our hands out to receive this regeneration. He imparts life to whom He wills. We don't exercise our wills, He does.

 

[Depleted]

Quote "You've maligned your character all by yourself. You're the one telling everyone that Calvinists don't believe in free choice, free grace, or evangelizing. That's on you! That's on you because we have told you for weeks now that is not true, and yet, you spent three days finding sample after sample of the same lies by people just like you. "


Baloney Lynn. I have never said you dont believe in evangelism,I said there was no point in evangelism if people are elected to go to heaven or hell.Thats common sense,period. How can you believe in choice/grace? As Desertrose said your definition is different and you and preacher know it.You do not believe grace is free for ALL! You believe grace is limited to the elect and that is not the same thing.So NO ONE lied about what you believe. Its a conclusion to what you are saying,its common sense. You yourself even had to ask fourth to clarify a question you had. So you smash everyone over the head with what you believe then have to ask another member to tell you what you believe.smh


Quote "AND you're the one who said you have no idea what to do with yourself after a woman you loved and respected attacked "my beliefs."

Nah,I know what I believe. No one here shakes my beliefs,you included. I have always believed that Jesus saves ALL who believe. Always believed it,grew up on it. So dont flatter yourself,Im good.



1.1. I never attacked your beliefs. I told you again and again that what you are saying about MY beliefs are WRONG! And once you continued on blindly still calling them "your beliefs," then it was obviously lies! Personally, I don't do that to someone I love and respect. Most people actually listen to people they love and respect, (agreeing is optional), but not you.

Lynn you do this whole song and dance when anyone begins to question Calvinism and come to conclusions about it. As long as I was hearing and not questioning or drawing conclusions you were fine.When I stepped outside the line you blew a gasket. And you turned nasty.


2. Apparently, you did know what to do with yourself because you spent 3-4 days googling to find whatever agreed with you to throw it in our face as to why we're wrong again.

Of course Im going to post people with my POV I told you in the beginning that I did not agree with Calvinism. I began a thread on free will and was attacked on all sides.I wasn't giving a definition,I gave a definition and it wasn't a good enough definition,then I was Arminian even though I said I disagreed with certain beliefs of theirs. You continually refer to anyone who doesn't see your POV as Arminian even though you've said several times how "p*ssed" {your word not mine} you are that people are calling you something you are not. I guess that only works one way.


Quote "You could have been learning why you upset me, but, nope!"

Are you kidding me?! I have asked question after question,you just dont like the conclusion because it disagrees with your belief. I was more than willing to listen,I asked questions,went through a butt load of definitions and where I got stuck was the same place you are stuck and had to ask forth for a better explanation. How hypocritical is that? You dont know but your mad at me because I dont know! Thats beyond silly.


Quote "Much more important to defend what you think is wrong with what I believed as you continue to lie about what I believe. What Calvinists, in general, believe! In that, it's a pattern of lies, not merely one lie."

Pot meet kettle. Your the one blowing a gasket and calling people names because they disagree with you.I have NOT lied about Calvinism. You cannot say you believe that God elected people then turn around and say they have free choice,will,grace. Both cannot be true Lynn.Its not a lie. They contradict themselves. I dont understand why you say it is a lie!?



Quote "And that's what you chose to do, and it's no mistake. Now you're just filling the forum with garbage to defend your position. Not God anymore. Your position. Not God anymore. Your "religion."

You're defending your belief and you expect no one to defend theirs? You think you're speaking for God?! With the attitude that you have shown to others here? This is you,Christlike?! Lord have mercy I wouldn't want to see you mad if you see this as Christlike. What I fill the forum with is my business.If its within the rules then Im free to post my POV as you are.



Quote "And I have not been talking about you behind your back. You're right here, watching it. (Unless you have eyes in the back of your head.)

You have been talking to others in posts ranting about "she this and that" liar and on and on. You are sniping behind my back.Yes,you are.


Quote "To everyone else, have I gone behind Kayla's back on this? Have I PM'd anyone to talk about Kayla, like she seems to be claiming now?"

Never said you PMed anyone. Could care less if you did. But you dont need to snipe about me in posts to other people. Thats behind a persons back.


Quote "Because, man! Three weeks of this crap, and the only thing even my husband has heard about all this is me constantly asking if someone can be so blind that they cannot see that the Reformed do believe in free choice, God's grace and the need to evangelized? I don't talk behind anyone's back. I say it right in front of them on purpose!"

You cannot say you believe in people being elect and then say they have free choice! Do you not see that those ideas contradict each other?! My land!! I cant understand why YOU are so blind to this! If God knows who the elect are why do you need to evangelize? Those who are suppose to come will whether they are evangelized or not. Lynn I dont know if you're being obtuse on purpose or you honestly cannot see the contradictions in what you are saying.Im hoping its the latter.


Quote "Right! Calvin and Wesley are both dead. Except to you, they are the only voices to either POV. You wouldn't even listen when we all told you we aren't much on knowing what Calvin thought. We don't care."

And I dont get that either. Why do you not care? Calvin expounded on what you believe concerning election. Why would you say you are Calvinist?Reformed and not care about what Calvin said and wrote? Azusa Street was a revival that Pentecostals point to as a new fire that revived what happened at Pentecost. I would be odd for me to say I didn't care about it as a Pentecostal.



Quote " The only reason you care about Wesley suddenly, (because you didn't even know your beliefs were from him until I told you that, so it's not like you can't see me), is to prove you're right at any cost."

No Lynn, Wesley expounds well on free grace.Im not Methodist,nor am I Wesleyian. Im Pentecostal. Wesley may well have had an influence but Methodists as a general rule do not believe in speaking in tongues,nor do Weslyans,of which I am neither. I have always believed that Jesus died for all,always believed man had a choice,always believed it was the Holy Spirit that draw men. I did not google Wesley and say "well looky there,now I know what I believe!" Didn't happen. Been preaching the same message,singing the same message for years and years,Jesus saves whosoever will. Yes,Wesley expounded well on the subject and he believed what I have believed all my life.Its not about proving Im right,its about what the Bible says,period.


Quote "Now you're just going smug, as if we should be willing to keep playing this game with you, and to prove it? You've basically just said, "If you don't play, I win."

Baloney! Its always been a matter of what Gods Word says Lynn. I cant help it if you dont understand. What do I WIN being right? No,its a matter of the truth of the Word. Truth wins,I win nothing.But I will stand for what I know is right and I will not back down. So you might as well skip this thread because Im going to keep saying Jesus saves the whosoever wills.


Quote "No. You lost last week, when you tried lying about the other belief to prove you have the only right belief. And, by design, this site is for adults, so triple-dog-dare-yous don't work."

I lost last week? News to me,you'll have to explain that one. And Im not like you Lynn Im not trying to prove Im right,Im providing what the Bible says.I cant help that you think its me trying to win something or be right. I stand on the Word of God which says Christ died for all who will believe. Its no game,its the Word.


Quote "This wasn't a game, except to you. This is about God to most others on both sides of the debate."

If this was about God you wouldnt be telling people how p*ssed you are,shouting people down,calling people liars and generally throwing an adult tantrum. If you really believed what you believe and were Christlike you'd say "Kayla I get that you are getting stuck,I'll pray God opens your eyes to this truth."But you do not. You have been spiteful and hateful simply because I have questioned your contradictory beliefs.

Quote "As for what religion you practice? Now I see it clearly. That's why I'm still here. To make sure no one else follows you or believes you, since you are determined to lie about any belief you disagree with.

I have not lied about your belief. You want to make sure no one believes me? I believe Christ died for all,that His blood was shed for the whole world and that He wishes that none would perish. I believe man is drawn by the Holy Spirit to believe and anyone who calls on His name will be saved. If you dont want people to believe that you take that up with God. Because that is what His Word says. And I would be careful of barring the door of salvation to anyone. You are not God.

Your going to have to warn me when the BS is so think I need waders.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Maybe I should use the term Pelagians then? Seems that is closer to what most here on the Arminian side believe.

Semi-Pelagianism is what most ppl, who call themselves Arminians, hold to, they just don't know it.

It appears that Arminians don't hold to free will, either, well, not in the way the semi-Pelagians on here do.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are the elect through faith.

Israel did not believe in the Messiah . . . salvation was offered to the Gentiles - now all who believe are God's elect.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11

You're slowly becoming a Calvinist!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SG,

Could it be both? This part: predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will?

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:9-12

The mystery of His will is revealed to US, the believers. It is US, the believers, who have obtained that inheritance.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

PB you sound as if you've become a Calvinist.

Nope, I still believe that an individual has a the will (mental capacity) to make a choice and that choice is no coerced; i.e. free.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nope, I still believe that an individual has a the will (mental capacity) to make a choice and that choice is no coerced; i.e. free.

Yet no ones will is free, note Jeremiah 24:7, John 8:35ff.

Also, mental capacity to make a choice does not cause mans salvation; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1ff. We are not saved by human means, via mental capacity sister. There is no Scripture to support that view.

Salvation is via a supernatural act of God, the faith given to believe is by the power that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19, and is external, coming from Christ and His Word, and from God; Romans 10:17; Romans 12:3. It is not inherent or innate mental capacity - it must come from God alone. Therefore salvation is 100% from God, it does not come from him that wills &c, but from God.

 

[Depleted]

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4]

Notice, it says Satan has blinded, past tense, already a done deal, the minds of unbelievers. Now, the question remains, when were unbelievers blinded? Were they blinded after they came to 'the age of accountability', as the non-Cals(most do) aver? I don't think you can find scriptural proof to support it. So, then were they blinded in Adam, as when he fell, we fell in him? I think so. It was through Satan that Adam fell, and we fell in Adam, and were born blinded by Satan.

This is how I'm seeing this, and, admittedly part of my problem is not getting grammar as well as I wish I could.

Eve ate the fruit. Past tense. Really past tense, as in it's no longer happening and it didn't continue to happen. Once, and done.

He has driven to work. Past tense, but also implies (or infers, not sure which) it could/will happen again. He'll keep driving to work as long as he has work or as long as he has a car.

Satan has blinded. Past tense, but also infers that if the one blinded ever becomes sighted, he'll do it again. Or he will continue blinding as he deems needed.

If'n that is true, two implications I have trouble swallowing because I'm reformed:
1. Adam wasn't the last dude blinded. To put this in physical form, instead of spiritual, it sounds as if you're saying Satan threw battery acid onto Adam's eyes, thus blinding him. And because Adam is the head of the human race, all his children were born blind.

I do accept we lost a lot of inheritance through Adam's sin. We don't get the Garden of Eden anymore. We get poison ivy, cactus, and thorns on our roses because of Adam's sin. We don't immortal bodies anymore. And women get great pain from child birth, all because one man had to eat one piece of fruit. BUT Adam did not make me be so damn foolish as to see God in all of nature, and yet not notice he is God and is worthy of my life itself. I won't blame Adam on my foolishness.

2. If Satan can blind again and again, than perseverance is a crap shoot. God's not always able to keep me, and I know me well enough to know how willing I am to walk away. That makes my security anything but secure.

Soooo, obvious question -- what am I getting wrong in this? (Honestly. Max asked a good question.)

 

[Depleted]

If hate doesn't mean hate, then how can love mean love? You can't have it both ways.

Also, God doesn't shut the door of salvation. That's another thing were get falsely accused of believing. The door to salvation is open to ALL who want to pass through it.

Sadly, many don't want to pass through that door.

Not "many." "All." All do not want to pass through those doors until God dinks the light. One side of the door is "wonderful" darkness, which is great for hiding sin in. The other side is all-illuminating, which gives no place to hide the sin. To think Man wants to walk through the door is like thinking cockroaches will go out of their way to seek a well-lit room. It is too foreign from our nature to want to do that. Which is why God changes our nature to his supernature.

Every time Jesus told about accepting all who come to him, he next tells none will of their own accord. It's always-always God who changes our minds/spirits. Without him, we're nothing but cockroaches heading for the woodwork.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

At least we got to it's a who (people), not a what (plan.) Yay!

But did you get all of John 3:16-21? Because it sounds like you're still stuck on just verse 16. Jesus answered "Who" in verse 19 and 20. And then he answered what the Father did about it ("carried out in"/"wrought in"/"worked out in") in verse 21. Verse 17 tells what we did about it. Verse 21 tells how the Father trumped what we did about it.

Let's see: One that believes shall not perish but have everlasting life. One who does not believe is condemned already.
The condemnation, which is laid upon those who do not believe, comes because those who do not believe loved darkness rather than light and their deeds are evil. Those who do not believe, do evil and love doing the evil and therefore, do not want to believe and walk in the light because the deeds they love doing will be reproved.
Those who believe and do the truth come to the light, their works are shown and their works are energized, produced by God.

What is wrought by God are those deeds that are brought to light. Those deeds that are brought to light are done by those who believe - those who believe are born of the Spirit. God ONLY works with those who have been born again of the Spirit . . . God is Spirit and communicates with that new creation he creates within an individual once they believe - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Depleted]

I'm going to quote you, Peace, so what you said stays on this post, even after you respond to what I ask. That way we don't have to keep going back to remember what was said beforehand.
Peacefulbeliever: Nope, I still believe that an individual has a the will (mental capacity) to make a choice and that choice is no coerced; i.e. free.

Okay, then by "will" you take the definition of desire. Whatever we desire immensely we can make happen? Am I getting your definition accurately? (Because, if I am, at least we're both using the same definition.)

 

[Depleted]

Peacefulbeliever: Let's see: One that believes shall not perish but have everlasting life. One who does not believe is condemned already.
The condemnation, which is laid upon those who do not believe, comes because those who do not believe loved darkness rather than light and their deeds are evil. Those who do not believe, do evil and love doing the evil and therefore, do not want to believe and walk in the light because the deeds they love doing will be reproved.
Those who believe and do the truth come to the light, their works are shown and their works are energized, produced by God.

What is wrought by God are those deeds that are brought to light. Those deeds that are brought to light are done by those who believe - those who believe are born of the Spirit. God ONLY works with those who have been born again of the Spirit . . . God is Spirit and communicates with that new creation he creates within an individual once they believe - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Close. Again. God deals in people not things. Just like he didn't predestined a plan, he predestined people. In like kind, he doesn't light up deeds. He lights up people.

Now which of those people hiding in the dark chose God of their own free will?

 

[PennEd]

I have off and on for several weeks watched this debate, on several different threads, in varying intensity and lack of grace from many involved.

I maintain that no side is going to convince the other, and a deepening trench warfare of positions will ensue.

Obviously arguments can, and have, been made effectively for both points of view. But I have an honest question.

WHY can't BOTH be true? Has God's Arm been shortened? Why can't we believe that the Creator of EVERYTHING can weave such a beautiful, loving story, where BOTH HIS Sovereignty AND our free will go hand in hand?

And ALL of this is secondary to His commandment that we love each other. Please don't let issues outside of the One True Gospel cause division.

 

[kaylagrl]

If hate doesn't mean hate, then how can love mean love? You can't have it both ways.

Also, God doesn't shut the door of salvation. That's another thing were get falsely accused of believing. The door to salvation is open to ALL who want to pass through it.

Sadly, many don't want to pass through that door.

So when the Bible says in Luke,


If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


What does this mean?

 

[trofimus]

WHY can't BOTH be true? Has God's Arm been shortened? Why can't we believe that the Creator of EVERYTHING can weave such a beautiful, loving story, where BOTH HIS Sovereignty AND our free will go hand in hand?

I actually think it can and it goes.

The only thing that is needed for it is the proper definition of terms (what is predestination and what is free will).

If we define the predestination as a certainity of causes and free will as the will that is not forced to choose, but has inclinations that make the choice certain, I think both camps can settle the solution.

But both camps must leave their extreme claims and extreme positions that are not necessary.

 

[oldethennew]

PHI. 1:27-28-29.
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you,
or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in One Spirit, with one mind
striving together for the faith of the gospel;

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition,
but to you of salvation, and that of God.

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake;

JOHN 12:26.
If any man serve Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there shall also My servant be:
if any man serve Me, him will Father honour.

 

[notuptome]

Then we have not been given life from death, as Jesus avers in John 5:21.
We have not crossed over from death to life, as Jesus avers in John 5:24.

What other thoughts do you have that mangles God's word, Brother?

You need to be able to discern between the Spiritual and the physical. This is not meat but milk.

Those who are alive in the flesh do not need quickening but those who are separated from God because of sin need quickened by the Holy Spirit to inherit eternal life.

Dig a little deeper and meditate on the word of God allow the Holy Spirit to teach you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The difference is that Arminians claim we elect ourselves, whereas the bible says God does the electing based on nothing other than his good will and pleasure. One elevates man, the other elevates God. The core of the issue. Is salvation in the hands of man, or God? The bible says God. The counter argument is that no, no, we believe it's all God BUT we have to choose it, which is entirely contradictory. You've added a clause to God's work that institutes man as part of the work of salvation thereby denying the work is all God, while at the same time claiming the work is all God. The danger in the Arminian system of belief is that it attacks the very character of God. One, it limits his omniscience, as if God had to look through time and learn who would choose him. Not how it works. God created everything already knowing the outcome without having to gaze through time. He created time, he is not subject unto it.

elect - 1) choose by voting; 2) choose to do something; decide . . . Does God vote and decide on who will become a part of his family? Or is his family part of his elect because of obedience - BELIEVE in Jesus Christ? How does obedience to God - Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit, in any way making God not the cause of our salvation? The prerequisite to receiving the holy Spirit; i.e. being born again of the Spirit, is faith/belief in Jesus Christ. That is totally God's plan and purpose for each individual. I don't deny election but in the way we get to being part of the elect. God has offered salvation to EVERYONE not just a select few . . For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men . . God has plans and purposes which will not be thwarted - the fact that he offered salvation to all who believe is plainly stated . . . those who do not accept that offer are condemned, again plainly stated. God is not a tyrant, nor a dictator. Salvation is a gift from God through or by way of Jesus Christ - that is all credited to God. The new birth is all credited to God's power to create in one who believes a new creation, one which partakes of the divine nature - no man can do that.

Two, it makes God submissive to man and man's will instead of the biblical truth of man being subject unto God's will. It's essentially an attempt at dethroning God and putting man in the driver's seat.

God is in the driver's seat . . . biblical truth is that we are sealed with the holy Spirit AFTER we have heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. God set forth that truth throughout scripture that man must trust in, believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Believing in Jesus Christ - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other given among men, whereby we must be saved - is being submissive to God.

Three, it applies human understanding and characteristics to God, as if God is a man. God's ways are higher than man's and his justice is pure, his reasoning is perfect, his will is supreme. Who are we to council God on matters of right and wrong, justice and injustice, love and wrath? In essence, this boils down to idolatry and creating a god fashioned in the likeness of man.

God is no respecter of persons - he does not discriminate - salvation is available to all - Jew and Gentile alike. But salvation will not be accepted by all for all will not believe in Jesus Christ. I see no idolatry nor creating a god fashioned in the likeness of man. I see a God who loved mankind enough to has offer salvation through faith in his Son; a way for man to be born again and to have everlasting life.

Four, it's an attack on the the Gospel itself and attempts to make it of no effect. The cross is entirely effectual for all who were elected and believe. The counter argument is that no, it only works for some, those who are good enough, smart enough, wise enough, or have the proper inclination to choose God out of their love for him. Pure heresy.

How in the world is it an attack on the gospel? The whole of the gospel is God sending his only begotten Son to redeem mankind. We are to believe in him in order to gain everlasting life. He is the fountain of living waters and we are to drink. We are to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead in order to be saved. The cross has worked for ALL, the resurrection has worked for ALL - Does it work for those who do not believe it; do not have faith?

Five, scripture has to be rewritten and warped beyond recognition to fit the Arminian perspective. Elect doesn't really mean elected by God, it means self-election and God was like cool I'll go with that. Much of scripture is completely rejected outright like John 6 where Jesus himself said no one can come to him unless the Father draws them, so then there has to be this elaborate extrabiblical philosophy to explain how that really means God draws all people. It simply isn't in the text, just like much of what Arminians believe.

Nope scripture does not have to be rewritten . . . Those who believe are part of the elect. The Father draws through his word - if the word of God is believed then faith is born . . . if the word of God is rejected - man remains dead and in sin.
Please let me know where I have rewritten or warped anything.

Most, even some on my side, won't agree with this, but Arminian theology and the Arminian belief system is simply idolatry and worship of man, not the God of scripture. This is the core of the issue. Man demands grace from God and God is obligated to give it at man's behest. After all, everyone deserves God's grace according to Arminianism, but nobody deserves it according to scripture. That is what makes grace, grace. The Arminian system of belief is idolatry to its very core.

I have not worshipped any other gods in order to commit idolatry. I do not in any worship man. I did not demand grace from God - God gives grace to those who believe in his only begotten Son - For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Salvation is by grace through - not by any deeds we have done - it is a gift of God. Whereas you believe in "irresistable" grace - man cannot resist the call to salvation - Mine is more of a "conditional" faith - wherein man must believe and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mine is offered to ALL - the "whosoever" believes; For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Yours - I elect you and you and you to be saved - but you or you or you cannot be saved no matter how many times you call out to men for I have not elected you for salvation. Sort of makes God a respecter of persons to me.

 

[kaylagrl]

First, I want to answer your claim that Lynn has talked behind your back. That is a complete and total lie. Lynn and I have become fairly good friends. I can show you reams and reams we have written to each other about gardening. Even when I asked her a while back for some good books on Reformed theology, she gave me one book and some generic names like John Piper (I already have at least 10 of his books!)

As someone following these discussions with interest, Lynn and several others have said the same thing over and over in every thread, which you somehow don't seem to understand. It is very simple.

Lynn (and others!) are tired of you saying:

"This is what YOU believe and I don't agree with it!"

This is the equivalent of building a straw man of rumour and innendo, and then knocking it down. It is also the WRONG way to conduct a debate!

The right way is to say, "This is what I believe, what do you believe?" Then the other person states what they believe. There may be some clarifications, and certainly disagreements about the nature of what the other person believes, hopefully using the Bible, rather than 50 copy and pastes, like you have done, KG.

I'm new to this game, but I am getting resentful of you stuffing words in people's mouths about what they believe. We are diverse people, we have different angles in things. But we do believe God is sovereign.

I personally find the entire title of this thread to be appalling. What kind of God do you serve who is not Sovereign, KG? I cannot believe it is Jesus Christ that you are serving at all!

Or would that be putting words in your mouth? Not sure, since it seems like you do not serve the same God I do, after reading a lot of the pages of this thread![/QUOTE]




Oh my word Angela!! You're turning on me because you've now become friends with Lynn?! Is this high school!? Lynn has NO trouble defending herself. You dont need to go to bat for her.You of all people Angela.smh I thought better of you. But I guess this is the game you all want to play as I see the three amigos have hit like on your post. What Lynn and I have between us is between us,period.I'd thank you to let us pound it out rather than stirring up more resentment.

I started a thread where I ASKED what was believed. Then I told them where I was stuck and then I was called a liar. You are contradicting yourselves.You CANNOT say you believe in free grace if you are elected! That is common sense. Thats not free will! You all can repeat,repeat,repeat,both cannot be true! Im NOT lying about what you are saying. You are not understanding Scripture,and you are contradicting yourselves. You have been asked again and again by others and you give the same answer "we believe in free grace" but you cant believe in both election and free choice! Ive asked and been called a liar,so either you cant answer or you dont want to,Im not sure which.

This is a discussion forum,people seem to forget this. If its within CC rules its not wrong. All the horrible things preacher has said,and Lynn, {your new buddy} and not a word from you that they are wrong.But me,Im wrong huh? Well I guess Im not one of your amigos so I its ok to tear apart everything I say. Very mature.

No one is stuffing words in your mouth Angela. You are contradicting yourself. You cannot say you believe in election and free grace at the same time. Its like saying you are pro-abortion and pro-life,its a contradiction in terms. No one is putting words in your mouth.You're not making sense.


Quote "I personally find the entire title of this thread to be appalling. What kind of God do you serve who is not Sovereign, KG? I cannot believe it is Jesus Christ that you are serving at all! "


So now I know for sure that you're only here to defend your new buddy and haven't read the OP. The article was saying God cannot go back on His Word,He cannot lie etc. Or do you think God can lie? See had you read the OP instead of running to Lynns defense you would have known how silly your statement is. But I wont hear an apology for that because Lynn is the only one that deserves defending around here.

Quote "Or would that be putting words in your mouth? "

Nope,just means you didnt read it and rushed to defend poor Lynn who believes what you believe and therefore deserves your defense.


Quote "Not sure, since it seems like you do not serve the same God I do, after reading a lot of the pages of this thread!"


If you believe that Christ did not die for ALL,no we do not serve the same God. If you do not believe the blood of Christ can save ALL who believe on His name,no we do not serve the same God. If you believe God elected a chosen few and left the rest for destruction and they cannot or will not call on His name,no we dont believe in the same God. And I have news for you,you dont believe in the God of the Bible either. Because He says Hes willing that none should perish, that He does not take delight in the death of the unbeliever.He said Jesus was sent to the whole would and that all who call,come,believe can be saved. And if you dont believe in that God sister,I'll pray for you,because you are not believing in the God of the Bible and that is the God I believe in.






ps. If you believe differently feel free to explain. So far I see nothing but contradiction.

 

[kaylagrl]

Your going to have to warn me when the BS is so think I need waders.

Matt. "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."