What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[Marano]

===================================================

your POST has 'nothing to do with, 'the great Falling-Away' in scripture, marano,
one can't 'fall-away' from
something that they were never a part-of, that's why it is called, 'THE GREAT FALLING AWAY'!

nuff said, ...

So you believe it's possible for a fruit bearing christian to fall away from faith, once they've been made one with Christ, are counted as part of the body of Christ and are counted among the elect?

God elected someone to be saved before the foundation of the world, how is that person gonna fall away?

The ones who do fall away were never part of the elect to begin with for if they were they wouldn't have fallen away.

 

[maxwel]

Good point. He likes to also come along when they've heard the Word of God and however he does it steal it away from them. Yep. He's active in the children of disobedience.

If we look at this verse more carefully, and compare it with similar scripture, I think we'll find it's talking about Satan's ongoing work. It does not seem to be referring to something that happened to mankind "through Adam" back in the fall.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.




1. This cannot refer to the fall.
In the fall, EVERYONE would have been blinded, not just a specific group called unbelievers... in this verse satan is SPECIFICALLY BLINDING ONLY UNBELIEVERS.
Therefore, this CANNOT be the fall, and must be something else.


2. This cannot refer to the fall:
In scripture, the fall is never referred to in this way anyway... it's never referred to as a time when satan "blinded" mankind. It's never spoken about this way.

3. This cannot refer to the fall:
This entire chapter has nothing to do with the fall, and doesn't even come close to mentioning the fall, or Adam, in any way.

4. The past tense of the verb, "blinded", does NOT in ANYWAY relegate it to the distant past, and does not "necessarily" relegate it to the past at all.

A. The past tense could be the very recent past, like 5 seconds ago.

B. Something in past tense can often refer to something which started in the past then carries into the active present.
If I say, "I thirsted all day", we really have no idea if I'm still thirsting in the present moment... I might be.
(We can give many examples of this. It's common.)
So the past tense can often refer to something which started in the past, and is STILL happening in the present.

C. Just because something happened in the past, we can't assume it happened only once in the past... it could "re-happen" many times, or it could be an "on going" happening that just started in the past.

D. Since we know Satan's nature is to constantly attack mankind, it would be WELL WITHIN HIS CHARACTER to start something in the past which is, in fact, an ONGOING ATTACK IN THE PRESENT.





I'm not out to discredit Calvinists, or to disparage them, or ridicule them.
I just think there are some real issues here that can't just be summarily swept under the rug.

In all fairness, both sides in this debate usually make some mistakes, and both sides usually try to sweep anything under the rug that's a bit prickly.

Alright, I have to roll.
You guys can pick me apart while I'm gone, lol.

: )

 

[kaylagrl]

And another thread has been opened on Calvinism. I see no point in it. With the vitriol that has gone on in this thread.smh. I see why people avoid the BDF like the plague. I seldom come here. Ive never seen such nasty behavior,so many false accusations,so much immaturity from some here. Very sad but the BDF has become like swimming with piranhas. I fear for new Christians coming to CC. Never seen people turn so quickly.So sad.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So when the Bible says in Luke,


If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


What does this mean?

Many at that time had to forsake all to follow Him. But Jesus said they'd gain that back and then some. However, the context of that passage is that if it comes down to choosing Him or their family, that if their family was a stumbling block to coming to Him, he'd better hate them, as they are trying to interfere with the will of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are mixing being raised from the dead, the DEAD as in NO breath, the resurrection - with being dead in trespasses and sins. I agree that I have no part in my resurrection from the DEAD because being physically dead, I don't have a will, I have no mental capacity at all. Being dead in trespasses and sins - I am still a breathing person who can choose right from wrong - I may choose wrong more than I choose right but I mentally know good and evil. I have the capacity to be presented the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have the capacity to be obedient and believe what I hear . . . when I believe what I hear, God spiritually restores me, quickens me, makes me alive IN Christ. God does that - I don't. Why did God go through the trouble of presenting us the gospel for us to believe if we were unable to believe in it in the first place?

I bet that person the EMT's gave CPR to was very thankful toward the EMT's for saving his life but hopefully, that person gave God the glory for the work that was performed through the EMT's.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he worked in (by or through) Christ when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in the heavenlies.
We have to believe what is presented to us through the gospel - in the only name under heaven whereby we can be saved.

Sissy, you are missing what I am saying. The way God raises the spiritually dead to life is the same way the physically dead are raised to natural life.

The widow's son Elijah raised to life in 1 Kings 17. Through the workings of God through Elijah, God gave him back his physical life through no effort of his own.

The widow's son in Luke 7. Jesus raised him to physical life and gave him back to his mother through no effort of his own.

Same with Lazarus in John 11.

Same with the bones in Ezekiel 37.

These are pictures, from a physical resurrection, of how God raises dead souls to Spiritual life.


Those ppl who were raised back to life exercised none of their will in them being brought back to life physically. The same with how God raises dead souls to life through no effort of their own.

 

[Depleted]

I have off and on for several weeks watched this debate, on several different threads, in varying intensity and lack of grace from many involved.

I maintain that no side is going to convince the other, and a deepening trench warfare of positions will ensue.

Obviously arguments can, and have, been made effectively for both points of view. But I have an honest question.

WHY can't BOTH be true? Has God's Arm been shortened? Why can't we believe that the Creator of EVERYTHING can weave such a beautiful, loving story, where BOTH HIS Sovereignty AND our free will go hand in hand?

And ALL of this is secondary to His commandment that we love each other. Please don't let issues outside of the One True Gospel cause division.

I have not now, nor ever taken exception to anyone believing the Arminian gospel. I do, very much, take exception to people lying about what I believe.

 

[Depleted]

elect - 1) choose by voting; 2) choose to do something; decide . . . Does God vote and decide on who will become a part of his family? Or is his family part of his elect because of obedience - BELIEVE in Jesus Christ? How does obedience to God - Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit, in any way making God not the cause of our salvation? The prerequisite to receiving the holy Spirit; i.e. being born again of the Spirit, is faith/belief in Jesus Christ. That is totally God's plan and purpose for each individual. I don't deny election but in the way we get to being part of the elect. God has offered salvation to EVERYONE not just a select few . . For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men . . God has plans and purposes which will not be thwarted - the fact that he offered salvation to all who believe is plainly stated . . . those who do not accept that offer are condemned, again plainly stated. God is not a tyrant, nor a dictator. Salvation is a gift from God through or by way of Jesus Christ - that is all credited to God. The new birth is all credited to God's power to create in one who believes a new creation, one which partakes of the divine nature - no man can do that.

God is in the driver's seat . . . biblical truth is that we are sealed with the holy Spirit AFTER we have heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. God set forth that truth throughout scripture that man must trust in, believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Believing in Jesus Christ - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other given among men, whereby we must be saved - is being submissive to God.

God is no respecter of persons - he does not discriminate - salvation is available to all - Jew and Gentile alike. But salvation will not be accepted by all for all will not believe in Jesus Christ. I see no idolatry nor creating a god fashioned in the likeness of man. I see a God who loved mankind enough to has offer salvation through faith in his Son; a way for man to be born again and to have everlasting life.
How in the world is it an attack on the gospel? The whole of the gospel is God sending his only begotten Son to redeem mankind. We are to believe in him in order to gain everlasting life. He is the fountain of living waters and we are to drink. We are to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead in order to be saved. The cross has worked for ALL, the resurrection has worked for ALL - Does it work for those who do not believe it; do not have faith?

Nope scripture does not have to be rewritten . . . Those who believe are part of the elect. The Father draws through his word - if the word of God is believed then faith is born . . . if the word of God is rejected - man remains dead and in sin.
Please let me know where I have rewritten or warped anything.

I have not worshipped any other gods in order to commit idolatry. I do not in any worship man. I did not demand grace from God - God gives grace to those who believe in his only begotten Son - For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Salvation is by grace through - not by any deeds we have done - it is a gift of God. Whereas you believe in "irresistable" grace - man cannot resist the call to salvation - Mine is more of a "conditional" faith - wherein man must believe and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mine is offered to ALL - the "whosoever" believes; For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Yours - I elect you and you and you to be saved - but you or you or you cannot be saved no matter how many times you call out to men for I have not elected you for salvation. Sort of makes God a respecter of persons to me.

From A.W. Pink,
"Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What saith the Scriptures? If we believe their plain and positivedeclarations, no room is left for uncertainty. They affirm, again and again, that God is on the throne of the universe; that the sceptreis in His hands; that He is directing all things "after the counsel of His own will." They affirm, not only that God created all things, butalso that God is ruling and reigning over all the works of His hands. They affirm that God is the "Almighty," that His will isirreversible, that He is absolute Sovereign in every realm of all His vast dominions. And surely it must be so. Only two alternatives arepossible: God must either rule, or be ruled; sway, or be swayed; accomplish His own will, or be thwarted by His creatures. Acceptingthe fact that He is the "Most High," the only Potentate and King of kings, vested with perfect wisdom and illimitable power, and theconclusion is irresistible that He must be God in fact as well as in name."

 

[SovereignGrace]

If we look at this verse more carefully, and compare it with similar scripture, I think we'll find it's talking about Satan's ongoing work. It does not seem to be referring to something that happened to mankind "through Adam" back in the fall.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.




1. This cannot refer to the fall.
In the fall, EVERYONE would have been blinded, not just a specific group called unbelievers... in this verse satan is SPECIFICALLY BLINDING ONLY UNBELIEVERS.
Therefore, this CANNOT be the fall, and must be something else.


2. This cannot refer to the fall:
In scripture, the fall is never referred to in this way anyway... it's never referred to as a time when satan "blinded" mankind. It's never spoken about this way.

3. This cannot refer to the fall:
This entire chapter has nothing to do with the fall, and doesn't even come close to mentioning the fall, or Adam, in any way.

4. The past tense of the verb, "blinded", does NOT in ANYWAY relegate it to the distant past, and does not "necessarily" relegate it to the past at all.

A. The past tense could be the very recent past, like 5 seconds ago.

B. Something in past tense can often refer to something which started in the past then carries into the active present.
If I say, "I thirsted all day", we really have no idea if I'm still thirsting in the present moment... I might be.
(We can give many examples of this. It's common.)
So the past tense can often refer to something which started in the past, and is STILL happening in the present.

C. Just because something happened in the past, we can't assume it happened only once in the past... it could "re-happen" many times, or it could be an "on going" happening that just started in the past.

D. Since we know Satan's nature is to constantly attack mankind, it would be WELL WITHIN HIS CHARACTER to start something in the past which is, in fact, an ONGOING ATTACK IN THE PRESENT.





I'm not out to discredit Calvinists, or to disparage them, or ridicule them.
I just think there are some real issues here that can't just be summarily swept under the rug.

In all fairness, both sides in this debate usually make some mistakes, and both sides usually try to sweep anything under the rug that's a bit prickly.

Alright, I have to roll.
You guys can pick me apart while I'm gone, lol.

: )

Well, when Adam fell, we fell, being in Adam. We were born blinded to the gospel by Satan. Now, Satan is not setting back, setting on his laurels, but is ever seeking whom he may devour. Look at Matthew 13 and the four souls. The seed that landed by the wayside the birds ate up. That was Satan taking the word away from unbelievers before they could believe. He makes sure ppl stay blinded. However, when He steps in, He undoes the works of Satan and casts him out and spoils his goods. God does this for His ppl. The others stay blinded, because only God can undo the work of Satan.

 

[Depleted]

First, I want to answer your claim that Lynn has talked behind your back. That is a complete and total lie. Lynn and I have become fairly good friends. I can show you reams and reams we have written to each other about gardening. Even when I asked her a while back for some good books on Reformed theology, she gave me one book and some generic names like John Piper (I already have at least 10 of his books!)

As someone following these discussions with interest, Lynn and several others have said the same thing over and over in every thread, which you somehow don't seem to understand. It is very simple.

Lynn (and others!) are tired of you saying:

"This is what YOU believe and I don't agree with it!"

This is the equivalent of building a straw man of rumour and innendo, and then knocking it down. It is also the WRONG way to conduct a debate!

The right way is to say, "This is what I believe, what do you believe?" Then the other person states what they believe. There may be some clarifications, and certainly disagreements about the nature of what the other person believes, hopefully using the Bible, rather than 50 copy and pastes, like you have done, KG.

I'm new to this game, but I am getting resentful of you stuffing words in people's mouths about what they believe. We are diverse people, we have different angles in things. But we do believe God is sovereign.

I personally find the entire title of this thread to be appalling. What kind of God do you serve who is not Sovereign, KG? I cannot believe it is Jesus Christ that you are serving at all!

Or would that be putting words in your mouth? Not sure, since it seems like you do not serve the same God I do, after reading a lot of the pages of this thread!

Oh my word Angela!! You're turning on me because you've now become friends with Lynn?! Is this high school!? Lynn has NO trouble defending herself. You dont need to go to bat for her.You of all people Angela.smh I thought better of you. But I guess this is the game you all want to play as I see the three amigos have hit like on your post. What Lynn and I have between us is between us,period.I'd thank you to let us pound it out rather than stirring up more resentment.

I started a thread where I ASKED what was believed. Then I told them where I was stuck and then I was called a liar. You are contradicting yourselves.You CANNOT say you believe in free grace if you are elected! That is common sense. Thats not free will! You all can repeat,repeat,repeat,both cannot be true! Im NOT lying about what you are saying. You are not understanding Scripture,and you are contradicting yourselves. You have been asked again and again by others and you give the same answer "we believe in free grace" but you cant believe in both election and free choice! Ive asked and been called a liar,so either you cant answer or you dont want to,Im not sure which.

This is a discussion forum,people seem to forget this. If its within CC rules its not wrong. All the horrible things preacher has said,and Lynn, {your new buddy} and not a word from you that they are wrong.But me,Im wrong huh? Well I guess Im not one of your amigos so I its ok to tear apart everything I say. Very mature.

No one is stuffing words in your mouth Angela. You are contradicting yourself. You cannot say you believe in election and free grace at the same time. Its like saying you are pro-abortion and pro-life,its a contradiction in terms. No one is putting words in your mouth.You're not making sense.


Quote "I personally find the entire title of this thread to be appalling. What kind of God do you serve who is not Sovereign, KG? I cannot believe it is Jesus Christ that you are serving at all! "


So now I know for sure that you're only here to defend your new buddy and haven't read the OP. The article was saying God cannot go back on His Word,He cannot lie etc. Or do you think God can lie? See had you read the OP instead of running to Lynns defense you would have known how silly your statement is. But I wont hear an apology for that because Lynn is the only one that deserves defending around here.

Quote "Or would that be putting words in your mouth? "

Nope,just means you didnt read it and rushed to defend poor Lynn who believes what you believe and therefore deserves your defense.


Quote "Not sure, since it seems like you do not serve the same God I do, after reading a lot of the pages of this thread!"


If you believe that Christ did not die for ALL,no we do not serve the same God. If you do not believe the blood of Christ can save ALL who believe on His name,no we do not serve the same God. If you believe God elected a chosen few and left the rest for destruction and they cannot or will not call on His name,no we dont believe in the same God. And I have news for you,you dont believe in the God of the Bible either. Because He says Hes willing that none should perish, that He does not take delight in the death of the unbeliever.He said Jesus was sent to the whole would and that all who call,come,believe can be saved. And if you dont believe in that God sister,I'll pray for you,because you are not believing in the God of the Bible and that is the God I believe in.






ps. If you believe differently feel free to explain. So far I see nothing but contradiction.



[/QUOTE]
Why can we not believe in free grace and election? Because you say so?

 

[Depleted]

Matt. "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

And it's going to take a while for you to do that.

 

[Depleted]

Why would anyone choose something that is not in their closet to begin with?

When I was a sinner, I still had the choice within my will to do good or to do evil. There are plenty of people who choose to donate to charities, who stop along the road to help someone who is stranded, who have high moral standards but they have not confessed Jesus Christ as Lord in order to receive salvation. I did not "will" for God to save me - I obeyed God, I heard the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, believed in his only begotten Son, confessed him as Lord, believed God raised him from the dead, God kept his promise to me upon my obedience and birthed within me the new creation. God in Christ dwells in me because God fulfilled his promise that by his grace through my faith, not my works, I would be saved.

You may be short sighting "good."

Jehovah defined good in his commandments. And Jesus summed up the commandments.
[h=1]Mark 12:30-31 (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”[/FONT]

If you give to charities without God working in you, what are you doing? Feeling good about yourself? Earning points to heaven. Looking good in front of others? Unless you give to charity simply out of love for other and love for God, it's not good! It's ego! Our sinful nature does just that -- puts us first. Love self. We cannot love God or others without God choosing to change us.

And everyone has high moral standards, even prisoners. That's why they'll kill a child molester. You think that's a good high moral standard? That's not a clear understanding of God's good.

Set the bar higher. God is sovereign. Man is not.

 

[Depleted]

First a look at "will" from Strong's: 1 Timothy 2:4 who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - thelo: 1) to will, have in mind, intend; A. to be resolved or determined, to purpose; B. to desire, to wish; C. to love 1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing; D. to take delight in, have pleasure

Now Webster's: will: noun - 1) the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action; verb - intend, desire or wish to happen

I take the definition of "will" to be highlighted above. As for "desire" - as hard as I may desire a new car . . . I can not will that car into being. If I desire to wear a red shirt but I don't have a red shirt - I can't will that red shirt into being.

Exactly, so what makes you think you will yourself to God freely? And since you do think you willed yourself to God, what did the decision consist of? In something so small as choosing a blue shirt over a red shirt to wear that day, you thought it out. You weighed the pros and cons. Any time you look for a new home, you think it out. You weigh the pros and cons. For something as big as freely willing yourself to God, surely a memory you have, what were your pros, what were your cons, and what was the key in that decision? Your free will. Show me how that worked.

 

[Depleted]

And another thread has been opened on Calvinism. I see no point in it. With the vitriol that has gone on in this thread.smh. I see why people avoid the BDF like the plague. I seldom come here. Ive never seen such nasty behavior,so many false accusations,so much immaturity from some here. Very sad but the BDF has become like swimming with piranhas. I fear for new Christians coming to CC. Never seen people turn so quickly.So sad.

I'm still adapting to you being the one to start, and continue, the nastiness. And, you're right, it was quick. I had to PM you because the quickness surprised me. So what did you do about it? Take it like a pit bull. Bite deeply and refuse to let go.

 

[Depleted]

 

[trofimus]

Augustin said that God gives us grace, we act in this grace and God then rewards our acting in that grace by another grace.

So... the first grace did not depend on our cooperation, but the second one did.

 

[notuptome]

Augustin said that God gives us grace, we act in this grace and God then rewards our acting in that grace by another grace.

So... the first grace did not depend on our cooperation, but the second one did.

Context is important. Did Augustine write that in support of the RCC teaching on grace or to refute the RCC teaching on grace?

I would contend that grace is not given in measure but in whole. The RCC teaches that grace is received through the sacraments and not in full.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Oh my word Angela!! You're turning on me because you've now become friends with Lynn?! Is this high school!? Lynn has NO trouble defending herself. You dont need to go to bat for her.You of all people Angela.smh I thought better of you. But I guess this is the game you all want to play as I see the three amigos have hit like on your post. What Lynn and I have between us is between us,period.I'd thank you to let us pound it out rather than stirring up more resentment.

I started a thread where I ASKED what was believed. Then I told them where I was stuck and then I was called a liar. You are contradicting yourselves.You CANNOT say you believe in free grace if you are elected! That is common sense. Thats not free will! You all can repeat,repeat,repeat,both cannot be true! Im NOT lying about what you are saying. You are not understanding Scripture,and you are contradicting yourselves. You have been asked again and again by others and you give the same answer "we believe in free grace" but you cant believe in both election and free choice! Ive asked and been called a liar,so either you cant answer or you dont want to,Im not sure which.

This is a discussion forum,people seem to forget this. If its within CC rules its not wrong. All the horrible things preacher has said,and Lynn, {your new buddy} and not a word from you that they are wrong.But me,Im wrong huh? Well I guess Im not one of your amigos so I its ok to tear apart everything I say. Very mature.

No one is stuffing words in your mouth Angela. You are contradicting yourself. You cannot say you believe in election and free grace at the same time. Its like saying you are pro-abortion and pro-life,its a contradiction in terms. No one is putting words in your mouth.You're not making sense.


Quote "I personally find the entire title of this thread to be appalling. What kind of God do you serve who is not Sovereign, KG? I cannot believe it is Jesus Christ that you are serving at all! "


So now I know for sure that you're only here to defend your new buddy and haven't read the OP. The article was saying God cannot go back on His Word,He cannot lie etc. Or do you think God can lie? See had you read the OP instead of running to Lynns defense you would have known how silly your statement is. But I wont hear an apology for that because Lynn is the only one that deserves defending around here.

Quote "Or would that be putting words in your mouth? "

Nope,just means you didnt read it and rushed to defend poor Lynn who believes what you believe and therefore deserves your defense.


Quote "Not sure, since it seems like you do not serve the same God I do, after reading a lot of the pages of this thread!"


If you believe that Christ did not die for ALL,no we do not serve the same God. If you do not believe the blood of Christ can save ALL who believe on His name,no we do not serve the same God. If you believe God elected a chosen few and left the rest for destruction and they cannot or will not call on His name,no we dont believe in the same God. And I have news for you,you dont believe in the God of the Bible either. Because He says Hes willing that none should perish, that He does not take delight in the death of the unbeliever.He said Jesus was sent to the whole would and that all who call,come,believe can be saved. And if you dont believe in that God sister,I'll pray for you,because you are not believing in the God of the Bible and that is the God I believe in.






ps. If you believe differently feel free to explain. So far I see nothing but contradiction.

Why can we not believe in free grace and election? Because you say so?
[/QUOTE]


Believe contradictions all you want,but dont be surprised and fake persecution when people point out that you are contradicting yourselves.

 

[kaylagrl]

If we are forced to love it is not love.Love is a choice.

 

[kaylagrl]

And it's going to take a while for you to do that.

​Im not the one using the fowl language... I guess you didnt get the hint.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm still adapting to you being the one to start, and continue, the nastiness. And, you're right, it was quick. I had to PM you because the quickness surprised me. So what did you do about it? Take it like a pit bull. Bite deeply and refuse to let go.

No,you kept telling me I wasn't listening to what you believe. I dont believe as you do,Ive told you this before. You emailed me and threatened that if I didn't start listening you'd end our friendship. Then I made the "listening" thread in which I made clear that I did not believe or agree with Reformed/Calvinism. In that thread I said I was getting stuck at people made for election and those made for destruction,then you yourself asked Fourth the same question. Then in the free will thread I was jumped on because I hadn't given a definition. I knew if I did give a definition I would be called both a Plegian/Arminian however they are spelled. When I gave a definition that wasn't right because it wasn't "in my own words" At this point I began to get tired of the hypocrisy of Calvinists/Reformed {some of you} screaming persecution while telling the other side "yes you are Arminian and a little Plegian on the side and you believe you save yourself,now stop lying about what "I" believe and hold still while I bash you in the head with lies over what "YOU" believe"! Ya,tired of it. 100% hypocritical!