What About Saved by Grace?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Pilgrimshope

Active member
Sep 2, 2020
241
80
28
#41
You are just like all those who hold to, and promote, false doctrines. You refuse to give up what is false and believe what is true, and then continue to push your spiritual poison. Which means that you are not really a disciple of Christ.

So for the last time, I will present the words of Christ Himself (John 11:25,26), since you have tried to make Him a liar: Jesus said unto her, I am The Resurrection, and The Life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Then we have this in the previous chapter (john 10:9): I am the Door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Does anyone see the word "baptism" or "baptized" in these passages?

What did Jesus mean when He said “I am the door” (John 10:7)?
...When Jesus says, “I am the door,” He is reiterating the fact that only through Him is salvation possible... One who believes the Gospel (Hebrews 11:6) and repents of sin (Luke 13:3) is assured of being in “the fold” and of having entered by “the door.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/I-am-the-door.html
do you believe what jesus the way truth and life said though ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith believes what he said and action then becomes what he said

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in that verse about baptism it doesn’t say if someone believes and didn’t get baptized thier lost either , faith however believes there’s always a promise like with Moses there of what will happen according to Gods word .

It’s a principle of scripture so baptism is an act of faith like Moses stretching forth his hand. Like Noah beholding the ark because he believes what God said . Like Abraham leaving his home because of what God said would happen if he did

The message isn’t “ is baptism something necessary for salvation because only Jesus saves people we can’t determine even if we try

“ but the question is Why would we hear that message from Gods immutable and sure word , and then begin haggling over it’s necessary for salvation

“ whoever believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved “ faith believes or questions and dissects until we reason faith out of the equation
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,316
895
113
#44
I would agree baptism is something we should do when we here about what it means for us , I can’t imagine anyone arguing that it’s not necessary .

it’s an act of faith to hear and believe , not really faith to hear and then say “ that’s not necessary . I don’t think any of us here are an authority or anything but I think a persons faith is given and measured by God

it certainly doesn’t say “ if you don’t get baptized you can’t be saved “

although I do not see any reason anyone wouldn’t take that word from the lord in faith and act upon it knowing romans chapter 6-7 regarding baptism .

“ whoever believes the gospel and is baptized will be saved “ that’s what Jesus said , so faith would believe and do that . But then faith hears the gospel and believes as well baptism the act doesn’t save but it’s not faith to reject and argue it’s not necessary
After going around in circles, is water baptism necessary for salvation?

If you are saying it is, it means if one is not water baptised, he is not saved
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
1,443
803
113
#45
I agree, people in my church believe

Save by faith not by work, So murder adulterer as long as have faith are save only lose the reward.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Is that one that committed murder or adultery able to repent of those sins? Yes.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,448
880
113
#46
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Is that one that committed murder or adultery able to repent of those sins? Yes.
So you agree with people in my church or murderer must repent If he want to go to heaven?
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
1,443
803
113
#47
So you agree with people in my church or murderer must repent If he want to go to heaven?
If they're a Christian already? No, repentance doesn't regain heaven. Our sins aren't counted against us as they were before we were saved. We're not perfect being Christian, but we are eternally forgiven as our sins are put under the blood of Christ that washed us clean when we accepted him as our savior from our sins.
God knows that Christian who commits murder did so. He sees all things. Same with the Christian who commits adultery.
We repent to release our conscience from the weight of the guilt of what we believe is our having let God down with our bad behavior. While there are murderers, adulterers,thieves, and a whole slew of sinners who released all that debt when they accepted Christ. And all was forgiven so that God doesn't remember their transgressions anymore.
If he doesn't remember the sins of those who repent, he won't hold our transgressions against us once we are redeemed and reborn in him.

We can't lose heaven. We can't lose our salvation by our own actions. We didn't work to become saved. We can't work to remove our salvation. If we could it wouldn't be an eternal covenant.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,494
5,485
113
#48
do you believe what jesus the way truth and life said though ? “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” ‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Did you notice that Christ did not say " but he that believeth not -- AND IS NOT BAPTIZED -- shall be damned"?

If baptism were necessary for salvation, then that would be the logical completion of that statement. The truth is that there are only TWO conditions for salvation: (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). In Mark 16:16, only faith is in view, In Acts 2:38 and 3:19, repentance is in view. But because baptism and salvation are closely linked (with baptism following salvation) they are joined together.

Now here is the STRONGEST EVIDENCE that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Paul was specifically commissioned by Christ Himself to be the apostle to the Gentiles, and His primary responsibility was to preach the true Gospel and bring souls to Christ. But what did Paul say about his ministry?

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:17,18)

If water baptism was essential for salvation, then Paul could not have said what he said above. Instead he would have said "For Christ sent me BOTH to baptize, AND to preach the Gospel"

Also, what Paul said above was not to minimize the importance of baptism, but to show that it is the preaching of the Gospel which is essential to bring people to salvation, since the Gospel generates faith (Rom 1:17) and only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved (Acts 16:31).
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,448
880
113
#49
If they're a Christian already? No, repentance doesn't regain heaven. Our sins aren't counted against us as they were before we were saved. We're not perfect being Christian, but we are eternally forgiven as our sins are put under the blood of Christ that washed us clean when we accepted him as our savior from our sins.
God knows that Christian who commits murder did so. He sees all things. Same with the Christian who commits adultery.
We repent to release our conscience from the weight of the guilt of what we believe is our having let God down with our bad behavior. While there are murderers, adulterers,thieves, and a whole slew of sinners who released all that debt when they accepted Christ. And all was forgiven so that God doesn't remember their transgressions anymore.
If he doesn't remember the sins of those who repent, he won't hold our transgressions against us once we are redeemed and reborn in him.

We can't lose heaven. We can't lose our salvation by our own actions. We didn't work to become saved. We can't work to remove our salvation. If we could it wouldn't be an eternal covenant.
So after being Christian, murder adulterer, rob the bank still,go to heaven?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,125
966
113
#50
If we believe we have to obey in order to remain in faith that would necessarily teach we have to obey in order to remain saved. That isn't scripture. .
It is a gift of the Lord that we are saved, and that gift is not given as a payment of wages for obedience but as a free gift.

But God chooses those that he gives this gift to, and scripture tells us what He bases that choice on. God chooses those who love and obey him. Your statement "(not) necessary to obey in order to remain saved" is true in the sense that we will not be chosen if we choose to be sinners and disobedient, as we are told by the Lord, but it is our love and wish to follow him that his choice is based on.

Rev. 22:12 Behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,733
9,440
113
54
#51
Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

(verse 38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said to:

1. Repent
2. Water baptism
3. Receive Holy Ghost
Do you attend the church of Christ? :unsure:

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Remember, Jesus said in John 3:5 "...Except a man be born of born or water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. *So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

What happened to baptism in John 3:15? "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

We know God didn't remove baptism, so what happened?
Baptism is not mentioned in John 3:15. Jesus clearly stated that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM "apart from additions or modifications" will have eternal life.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes, there's the baptism.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism, so salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If we are to be saved the New Testament way, we need to follow Peter's instructions and obey Acts 2:38 - which is not a work, it is Obedience.
You seem to be obsessed with water baptism. The obedient act of submitting to being water baptized is a work and multiple acts of obedience that believers accomplish after having been saved through faith are works. You can't have it both ways.

The answer to the question: What must I do to be saved? is answered in Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,733
9,440
113
54
#53
Paul emphasized justification by faith more than any other writer, yet he strongly insisted that saving faith is inseparably bound up with obedience. He taught that the mystery of God’s redemptive plan, the church, has been “made known to all nations for the obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26).
Sounds like an attempt to teach that man is saved by both faith "and" obedience/works. In regards to (Romans 1:5; 16:26), although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) not faith "and" obedience/works.

Faith and obedience are so closely linked that a lack of obedience to God is proof of a lack of faith:
Yet faith is still faith and obedience which "follows" is works.

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?” (Romans 10:16)
This is a specific act of obedience, namely, choosing to believe the gospel.

Other passages reiterate the essential link between obedience and salvation.
It seems obvious to me that you teach salvation by faith "and" works. :cautious:

Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,881
1,512
113
#57
Thats a little niave to say all those that were baptised believed . Many people are baptized today and they are not saved .
Yes,

I baptize my hands every time I do the dishes. Its simply means to wash . Like in husbands wash your wives with the water of the word . . the gospel of our salvation

Its how he washes us His bride the church, with the doctrines of God.. they fall down like rain inspired from above.

Ephesians 5:25-27 King James Version (KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
2,118
543
113
#58
Importing into ' believe ' such concepts as repentance from sin, obedience to Christs Lordship, commitment involving surrender and sacrifice, instead of simple trust is a false message .
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
9,551
9,737
113
#59
Importing into ' believe ' such concepts as repentance from sin, obedience to Christs Lordship, commitment involving surrender and sacrifice, instead of simple trust is a false message .
Agree... makes it a bilateral agreement of offering to God in order to receive... "quid pro quo".... ... and that is in opposition to it being a gift.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,125
966
113
#60
Sounds like an attempt to teach that man is saved by both faith "and" obedience/works. In regards to (Romans 1:5; 16:26), although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) not faith "and" obedience/works.

Yet faith is still faith and obedience which "follows" is works.

This is a specific act of obedience, namely, choosing to believe the gospel.

It seems obvious to me that you teach salvation by faith "and" works. :cautious:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
You are trying to relate faith and works, and they are separate. Salvation is a gift of the Lord and it is the Lord who decides on who to give that gift to. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

When a gift is given it is not as a payment for something.

Works enters in because the Lord tells us who He decides to give this gift to, and that is to ones who love and obey Him. Jesus and God the Father act as one and Christ said: “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.