WHAT ABOUT THE THEIF ON THE CROSS??

[feedm3]

So many who reject baptism as a part of being saved bring up the argument of the thief on the cross.
The argument asserts that the thief that hung next to Christ was saved without being baptized.
This argument is not valid when it comes to whether or not we must be baptized for the following 3 reasons:

1. We do not know if the man was baptized or not. It is a mere assumption to say he was not because the Bible does not give us that information.
I have heard some say, it is implied because he was a criminal, therefore not a follower of Christ.


This too is invalid.
-Many followers of Christ are past criminals.
-Many in prison for past crimes that caught up them.
-Some even on death row repent and are converted.
-He could have been falsely accused (not uncommon for the Romans or the Jews).
-So this is not a valid argument because we know so little about this thief.


2. It does not matter if he was baptized or not because he was not under the New Covenant.
The Law of Moses was not fulfilled until Christ died and rose again.
Col 2:14 tells us concerning the Law of Moses that Christ, “nailed it to his cross.”
The thief could not be baptized into the death of Christ (Rom 6:3) before the death took place.

3. Christ is God (deity) therefore he has the authority to forgive sins anyway and time He feels.-But unless you are the thief on the cross, the Bible tells us what we must do in order to be saved

Hear – Rom 10:17
Believe – Jn 3:16
Repent – Luke 13:3Confess – Rom 10:9
Be baptized – Mrk 16:16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, I Pet 3:21.
Live faithful – Heb 5:9; Rev 2:10


These all work together in our salvation, not one of these steps will save us by itself.
All must be obeyed.

 

[Slepsog4]

New Testament baptism is into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Jesus was not yet dead, let alone buried or resurrected.

 

[Naphal]

WHAT ABOUT THE THEIF ON THE CROSS??

He is stealing in heaven now

3. Christ is God (deity) therefore he has the authority to forgive sins anyway and time He feels.-But unless you are the thief on the cross, the Bible tells us what we must do in order to be saved

The premise is correct. God can forgive whomever he wishes, with or without repentance:

Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Not only did she not repent of her sins, not only were her sins forgiven but Christ also declares her faith saved her!

These all work together in our salvation, not one of these steps will save us by itself.
All must be obeyed.

Not according to the above scriptures. Faith alone caused sins to be forgiven and saved this woman.

 

[feedm3]

He is stealing in heaven now

This cracked me up –good one.

The premise is correct. God can forgive whomever he wishes, with or without repentance:

Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Not only did she not repent of her sins, not only were her sins forgiven but Christ also declares her faith saved her!

Not according to the above scriptures. Faith alone caused sins to be forgiven and saved this woman.

Yup but the fact is you are not that woman, and she was not under the New Covenant.

You are told what to do under the NT to receive forgiveness of your sins.

Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized…FOR the remission of your sins”

Acts 22:16 – “..Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord”

This is how you “wash away” your sins.

Do you think for those who stand before Christ on the day of judgment as those who disobeyed can use the excuse, “but what about the woman in Luke and the thief on the cross”?

The fact is you are neither of those people, nor are you under the Old Law and you have been told how to be forgiven; it is up to you to obey it.

Now if Christ personally tells you otherwise, like the woman and thief, then no worries

 

[Naphal]

This cracked me up –good one.

lol, cool!

Yup but the fact is you are not that woman, and she was not under the New Covenant.

You are told what to do under the NT to receive forgiveness of your sins.

These things were also said by Christ...but new or old Covenant doesn't matter. Jesus is the same today and forever...he can forgive sins as he chooses too. The thief on the cross? If his faith was strong like that woman's, then he could be forgiven AND saved without repentance just as that woman was.

Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized…FOR the remission of your sins”

Acts 22:16 – “..Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord”

This is how you “wash away” your sins.

What of these?

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

 

[feedm3]

Yup you are definitely right about that.

 

[feedm3]

These things were also said by Christ...but new or old Covenant doesn't matter.

But it does matter, especially sense we are under the covenant.

Jesus is the same today and forever...he can forgive sins as he chooses too.

Yes He is, and yes He can, and he has revealed to us in the NT how he chooses to do so.

The thief on the cross? If his faith was strong like that woman's, then he could be forgiven AND saved without repentance just as that woman was.

Yup, still not applicable to us under the NT which tells us what we MUST do.

What of these?

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Great passages that show us Love is powerful and so is evangelism. But does this imply that we do not have to obey God as long as we are loving and evangelistic?

Then Peter should have said in Acts 2:38 after they asked, “what shall we do”, “Be loving and evangelize for the remission of your sins.”

But this is not what he said.
This is not what saved Paul in Acts 22:16.

 

[Naphal]

But it does matter, especially sense we are under the covenant.

Disagree but the thief and the woman lived during the same times. If she could be forgiven without repentance and be saved as well because of her faith, why couldn't the thief? Keep in mind the thief might be falsely accused like Christ was.

Great passages that show us Love is powerful and so is evangelism. But does this imply that we do not have to obey God as long as we are loving and evangelistic?

The passages prove that sins can be forgiven other ways in the new covenant and the example of the woman proves such things were also true in the old covenant so back to what I said: these things were the same between the old cov. and the new cov.

 

[feedm3]

Disagree but the thief and the woman lived during the same times. If she could be forgiven without repentance and be saved as well because of her faith, why couldn't the thief? Keep in mind the thief might be falsely accused like Christ was.

I don’t think you understand what I was arguing against. It does not matter to me how the thief was saved – My point is using him to say we do not have to be baptized under the NT in not a valid argument. We will never have the same conditions as the woman or thief.

The passages prove that sins can be forgiven other ways in the new covenant

No they do not because this was not spoken to non-Christians, but to those who had already obeyed.
When we are believe, repent, confess and are baptized we are forgiven of our sins, that’s not to say we will not ever commit other ones.
The passages you show is that the acts mentioned will cover a multitude of sins that a Christian may have.
But to one who has not obeyed (repentance and baptism) he is not a child of God and is therefore a child of wrath – II Thess 1:8, 9.

and the example of the woman proves such things were also true in the old covenant so back to what I said: these things were the same between the old cov. and the new cov.

Things are not the same, the old covenant is gone – Col 2:14.
The NT is what we are under and we must obey it.
If not then the Hebrews writer was wrong in saying “and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey”
This implies he is not the author of salvation to those who disobey.

 

[Naphal]

My point is using him to say we do not have to be baptized under the NT in not a valid argument. We will never have the same conditions as the woman or thief.

Oh, well water baptism was never needed for salvation.

 

[duewell]

when i read the new testament and i look at the example of the thief on the cross, some things sticks out. he was the only person to come to the defense of Jesus. he was assured by Jesus that he would go to paradise. this thief had never read a bible. it is unknown if he had baptism. he most likely didn't have communion. it is unknown if he was a repentant sinner. so how could he be granted salvation? easy answer, Jesus can do what he wants. regardless of someones understanding of rules and regulations put forth in the bible. Jesus can save anyone. even if all they ask is to be remembered by Jesus.

the thief defended Jesus as an innocent man and asked Jesus to remember him. imagine what that must have meant to Jesus at that time. even as he was dying, there was one person by his side going through what he was and proclaiming his innocence. no wonder this man was told he would be in paradise. we should all be so lucky. in the new testament it is taught of those who are crucified with Christ. the thief was the first to do so.

all things serve God, the entire world is working through the spirit to bring about salvation. as Christians we witness to other people. we defend to others how an innocent man died for our sins. we ask people to remember him. now i asked you to think about what it meant to Jesus at that time. he told the thief, you will be with me in paradise. imagine what that meant to the thief. i see two men, one innocent and one guilty, offering comfort to each other as death approaches them. isn't that what we as Christians try to do, for believer and non believers alike?

the thief that defended Jesus seemed to understand more in that moment than anyone had so far. while all others had left or denied Jesus, this thief alone said, we are criminals, we deserve our punishment, this man is innocent, he does not deserve this. isn't that the essence of confession? thank God that man was there to comfort Jesus. thank God that Jesus will be there to comfort us.

Duewell

 

[feedm3]

Oh, well water baptism was never needed for salvation.

Nope, not under the Old Law but that has changed:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Laodicea]

2. It does not matter if he was baptized or not because he was not under the New Covenant.
The Law of Moses was not fulfilled until Christ died and rose again.
Col 2:14 tells us concerning the Law of Moses that Christ, “nailed it to his cross.”
The thief could not be baptized into the death of Christ (Rom 6:3) before the death took place.

So was it wrong for John the baptist to baptize before Jesus death and resurrection? The disciples also baptized before the cross. While I believe in baptism but it is a symbol before and after the cross.

 

[Naphal]

Nope, not under the Old Law but that has changed:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Not water baptism but the true baptism:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Water baptism was merely a shadow/type of the actual baptism which is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[feedm3]

So was it wrong for John the baptist to baptize before Jesus death and resurrection? The disciples also baptized before the cross. While I believe in baptism but it is a symbol before and after the cross.

Okay what do you think of this?
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Laodicea]

Okay what do you think of this?
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

As I said I believe in baptism, the Bible does not speak against being baptized more than once, they received more light on the Holy Spirit and about Christ and were baptized again.

 

[feedm3]

As I said I believe in baptism, the Bible does not speak against being baptized more than once, they received more light on the Holy Spirit and about Christ and were baptized again.

Ok
thanks for the comment

 

[feedm3]

when i read the new testament and i look at the example of the thief on the cross, some things sticks out. he was the only person to come to the defense of Jesus. he was assured by Jesus that he would go to paradise. this thief had never read a bible. it is unknown if he had baptism. he most likely didn't have communion. it is unknown if he was a repentant sinner. so how could he be granted salvation? easy answer, Jesus can do what he wants. regardless of someones understanding of rules and regulations put forth in the bible. Jesus can save anyone.

I agree with most of what you said above.

even if all they ask is to be remembered by Jesus.

This is where we differ in our understanding.
This is not what the Bible teaches concerning salvation; it is not that easy I wish it was.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If salvation is as easy as you claim, then these above would not have to hear “depart from me”

the thief defended Jesus as an innocent man and asked Jesus to remember him. imagine what that must have meant to Jesus at that time. even as he was dying, there was one person by his side going through what he was and proclaiming his innocence. no wonder this man was told he would be in paradise. we should all be so lucky. in the new testament it is taught of those who are crucified with Christ. the thief was the first to do so.

Well put.

all things serve God, the entire world is working through the spirit to bring about salvation. as Christians we witness to other people. we defend to others how an innocent man died for our sins. we ask people to remember him. now i asked you to think about what it meant to Jesus at that time. he told the thief, you will be with me in paradise. imagine what that meant to the thief. i see two men, one innocent and one guilty, offering comfort to each other as death approaches them. isn't that what we as Christians try to do, for believer and non believers alike?

the thief that defended Jesus seemed to understand more in that moment than anyone had so far. while all others had left or denied Jesus, this thief alone said, we are criminals, we deserve our punishment, this man is innocent, he does not deserve this. isn't that the essence of confession? thank God that man was there to comfort Jesus. thank God that Jesus will be there to comfort us.

Again well put.
Yet there are many verses that show us we must obey God in order to be saved.
The fact is as children of God we have the responsibility to so.
This is what shows the world our faith.
We cannot hold on to the world and expect to have a home in Heaven.
I Jn 2:15-17 clearly tells not love the things of the world.
This includes worldly doctrines that deceive people into thinking salvation is as easy as believing in Santa (I am not accusing you of this, I don’t know what you believe).
We need to read and study close the word of God that is able to save our souls.


- I appreciate your response

 

[feedm3]

Not water baptism but the true baptism:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Water baptism was merely a shadow/type of the actual baptism which is of the Holy Spirit.

No that is definitely not true.
Acts 22:16 - it washed away Paul's sins.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit are not type and anti-type.

Baptism in water was not temporal - Matt 28:18.
It is still the only way to be added to the church - Acts 2:38, 47.
It is still the only way to be IN Christ - Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a totally different subject.
Actually I started this thread because my other one that is on the baptism of the Holy Spirit started turning into a discussion on water baptism lol.
Now this one trying to turn into Holy Spirit baptism - man I just cant win.

Here is the link below if you want to read and understand by position on the baptism of the Holy Spirit (if you want).

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/33746-laying-hands-baptism-holy-spirit.html

 

[duewell]

I agree with most of what you said above.


This is where we differ in our understanding.
This is not what the Bible teaches concerning salvation; it is not that easy I wish it was.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If salvation is as easy as you claim, then these above would not have to hear “depart from me”


Well put.

Again well put.
Yet there are many verses that show us we must obey God in order to be saved.
The fact is as children of God we have the responsibility to so.
This is what shows the world our faith.
We cannot hold on to the world and expect to have a home in Heaven.
I Jn 2:15-17 clearly tells not love the things of the world.
This includes worldly doctrines that deceive people into thinking salvation is as easy as believing in Santa (I am not accusing you of this, I don’t know what you believe).
We need to read and study close the word of God that is able to save our souls.


- I appreciate your response

i guess my point about the thief you disagreed with could be a mistake on my part. its a very interesting topic to discuss in the bible. our biblical understanding doesn't seem to apply to this guy, based on our understanding. so i threw out a possible reason why this is. could salvation for this thief be simply because he believed Jesus? according to the bible what did the thief do to be given paradise? this thief is the only one Jesus looked at while Jesus was alive and said "today you will be with me in paradise" he placed no conditions on it. its the only thing Jesus said to the guy that we know of. how does the bible support this?

if someone were to look at the bible and then compare it to the thief. would he have met the requirements we try to set as the standard for being saved today? its an interesting point to discuss. was this man saved by grace alone? was he saved because he asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom, thereby acknowledging Jesus as king and Lord.

the thief is an unknown person before he is next to Jesus on the cross. did he repent? did he have baptism and communion? all that is known is this, he proclaimed Jesus innocent in defense to an accuser and he asked to be remembered. could the thief be the first person to be saved grace? can Jesus save who he wants to regardless of our understanding? all we can be sure of is this. the thief is with Jesus in paradise. does our understanding of why this is even matter? still an interesting topic to discuss.

i understand most Christians think its not easy to be saved. to think its as easy as believing in santa claus is a good point. but as a children some seriously believed in santa. as an adult can you seriously believe in Jesus with the faith of a child? from my own experience it was anything but easy. the book of romans teaches all about it. the experience of it is far more intense.

shouldn't all Christians desire to be like that thief on the cross? where regardless of everything in our lives up to the moment of our impending death, Jesus looks at us and says, today you will be with me in paradise! because we admit our guilt and proclaim his innocence while asking that he remembers us.

Duewell
unconditional love deserves uncompromising care.