WHAT ABOUT THE THEIF ON THE CROSS??

[feedm3]

I don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation. I believe baptism by the Holy Spirit is and I believe God still does that today

Well I have shown you what the Bible says and if that will not convince anything will.

Because it is not water baptism that saves for that is a work of men not of God.

Please tell me which part of water baptism is the work of man.
Is it man that commanded it? – Acts 2:38 (peter spoke the words of the Spirit)
Is it man that washes away your sins? – Acts 22:16
Is it man that adds you to the church? – Acts 2:47
Is it man that destroys the body of sin due to baptism – Rom 6:3-f.
Is it man that buries you with Christ – Rom 6:3-f.
Is it man that puts you IN to Christ – Gal 3:27?
These are not rhetorical.

Which passages should we use to show a non-Christian to become Christian? All of them, which ones you start with depends on the person you are talking to but all of them points to Jesus and can be used to evangelized and point people to God.

That is wrong as well.
In order to know what we must do to become a Christian, it from these passages that show what one did that was outside of Christ.

Romans 10 was a statement made to a church who had baptized and unbaptized Christians in it.

There is no such thing as an “unbaptized” Christian.
Please show me one Christian under the NT that was not baptized.
Not those who walked with Jesus under the Law of Moses but under the NT in which we are under.

some had repented but not all had received the Holy Spirit yet and without the Holy Spirit they have not been adopted and do not have the Spirit that testifies with their spirits and calls out Abba Father. when I say baptized I mean with the Holy Spirit not with water. Baptism with water just shows that you have repented, baptism with the HOly Spirit shows that you have accept ed Jesus as Lord and Savior and have a saving faith that He rose from the dead and all the promises He made to His disciples are true and from God.

So again:
Is water baptism the way the Jews in Acts 2 were added to the church according to Acts 2:38,47?
Do we have to be added to the church?
Rom 8:1 implies we are must be IN Christ in order to be saved.
How do we get IN Christ?
When and how exactly did Saul wash away his sins according to Acts 22:16.
Did Peter not understand that Baptism does not save when he stated "baptism doth also now save us" I Pet 3:21?
If I refuse to not to repent will I still be saved?
If I refuse no to confess Christ will I still be saved?
If I refuse to be baptized in water will I still be saved?
Is/Was Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized" a command or a suggestion?

yes non Christians must be baptized after they repent it is what they are baptized with that we need to discuss.

So if we reject something we MUST do, are we still saved????

 

[feedm3]

did i get all the questions answered this time?

i think we disagree upon what the Holy Spirit baptism is. I believe God still gives spiritual gifts to His people today, just what they need to do His will, nothing more, nothing less.

signs and wonders, that is a whole another topic.

OK that is desperate way out, Just simply change the words to mean what you want them to mean.
I guess i was wrong about you.
Im done Have a good one

 

[cronjecj]

Was this stated to Chirsitans or Non-Chiristans?

Christians.

i am not discrediting water baptism at all, i am a baptist myself.

There are scripture that does not require water baptism for salvation that's what im saying here.

 

[cronjecj]

So your answer to my question is another question.

They did this by "calling upon the name of the Lord"

when did they do this? Rom 6:3-f. when they were baptized INTO Christ.

Please be more specific, into Christ like water baptism of Spirit baptism?

 

[AnandaHya]

Well I have shown you what the Bible says and if that will not convince anything will.

you have add the word water to any passage that says baptism which could be of the Spirit not just of water and in the name of Jesus.


Please tell me which part of water baptism is the work of man.
Is it man that commanded it? – Acts 2:38 (peter spoke the words of the Spirit)
Is it man that washes away your sins? – Acts 22:16
Is it man that adds you to the church? – Acts 2:47
Is it man that destroys the body of sin due to baptism – Rom 6:3-f.
Is it man that buries you with Christ – Rom 6:3-f.
Is it man that puts you IN to Christ – Gal 3:27?
These are not rhetorical.
the part where a man dunks another person under water.
all that you listed above is done when JESUS baptizes you with His Holy Spirit not when you get dunked in some water.

That is wrong as well.
In order to know what we must do to become a Christian, it from these passages that show what one did that was outside of Christ.

nope if they are outside of Christ they won't care or even wish to become Christian. you have to use whatever scripture God gives you to speak to reach the lost and plant the seed of His WORDS in their minds and hearts and allow God to send another to water until it grows and they have faith to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior.

There is no such thing as an “unbaptized” Christian.
Please show me one Christian under the NT that was not baptized.
Not those who walked with Jesus under the Law of Moses but under the NT in which we are under.

why you will just assume that they are? I could give you a list of names of people where there is no scripture of them ever being baptized in water like Paul for example. He was baptized with the Holy Spirit, did it mention him being taken to a lake and being dunked?


So again:
Is water baptism the way the Jews in Acts 2 were added to the church according to Acts 2:38,47?
Do we have to be added to the church?
Rom 8:1 implies we are must be IN Christ in order to be saved.
How do we get IN Christ?
When and how exactly did Saul wash away his sins according to Acts 22:16.
Did Peter not understand that Baptism does not save when he stated "baptism doth also now save us" I Pet 3:21?
If I refuse to not to repent will I still be saved?
If I refuse no to confess Christ will I still be saved?
If I refuse to be baptized in water will I still be saved?
Is/Was Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized" a command or a suggestion?


So if we reject something we MUST do, are we still saved????

answered it in the other post...you didn't seem to like my answers... hmmm

are you getting angry?

how disappointing.

 

[feedm3]

answered it in the other post...you didn't seem to like my answers... hmmm

are you getting angry?

how disappointing.

Angry - not at all.

Disappointed - a little, I was hoping to gain a person.

But I do not have time to now have to prove every passage that does not say "water" is spirit baptism.

I think one can do that on their own with some study on baptism in the Bible.

 

[AnandaHya]

OK that is desperate way out, Just simply change the words to mean what you want them to mean.
I guess i was wrong about you.
Im done Have a good one

I did not change the words to say what I want them to mean.

I showed you that Paul was baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT. you quoted the passage where Paul is telling people about being baptized and I showed you previous passages that shows that he is referring being baptized with the Holy Spirit not water. I don't get you. You say not to add words but then you want to add water baptism to Paul's salvation experience.

show me a passage where he got baptized in water.

When and how exactly did Saul wash away his sins according to Acts 22:16.

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

yep Saul who is later called Paul was baptized with the Holy Spirit...

New King James Version (NKJV)
Acts 9

The Damascus Road: Saul Converted

1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Ananias Baptizes Saul


10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

any mention of water? "and be filled with the Holy Spirit" seems to me to correspond with "and was baptized" kind of like "that you may receive your sight" goes with "he received his sight at once"

call me simple minded but that is how I read the text right there is baptism by the Holy Spirit....

anyways I've got to go and take care of my family. maybe we'll talk later.

 

[cronjecj]

Angry - not at all.

Disappointed - a little, I was hoping to gain a person.

But I do not have time to now have to prove every passage that does not say "water" is spirit baptism.

I think one can do that on their own with some study on baptism in the Bible.

Gain a person? Somebody that believes without water baptism you are condemned?

or

Gain a friend?

 

[feedm3]

Christians.

i am not discrediting water baptism at all, i am a baptist myself.

There are scripture that does not require water baptism for salvation that's what im saying here.

Yea I get that.
But there are also scriptures that do not mention belief in them at all - Heb 5:9"and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey"

Of course we understand we must believe.

There are also passages that do not mention confession, repentance etc.

And then there are those that do but do not mention faith.

So what do we do with all of these, they are not in contradiction to each other.

We must harmonize God's word, that is one of the great advantages we have in having the complete word of God.

I am saying we must do all of these before we become a Christian.

We cannot leave some things undone because of what one passage says, knowing there is another that says otherwise.
I understand you are a baptist and faith only is a doctrine that is taught by most baptists.

But do we listen to what different churches teach or what the Bible says?

And I know that most church think they teach what the Bible says and I know that could be said of me as well lol,

That is why we must study for ourselves and examine what we believe just as Paul tells us.

2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[cronjecj]

Angry - not at all.

Disappointed - a little, I was hoping to gain a person.

But I do not have time to now have to prove every passage that does not say "water" is spirit baptism.

I think one can do that on their own with some study on baptism in the Bible.

Just to let you know i am no teacher but i tend to use John 7:24 (KJV) and 1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV) if a person should teach out of the word..

Your siggi speaks for itself..

i believe with my whole heart that the thief on the cross was saved by grace through faith the moment he believed in Christ not by any works whatsoever..

If it so happened that the thief did not die on the cross he would've baptized himself probably and the Spirit would have guided him into all truth anyway..

 

[feedm3]

Just to let you know i am no teacher but i tend to use John 7:24 (KJV) and 1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV) if a person should teach out of the word..

I understand. But no matter where we me be talking, when we are speaking of what is truth and not, we are teaching.

Your siggi speaks for itself..

i believe with my whole heart that the thief on the cross was saved by grace through faith the moment he believed in Christ not by any works whatsoever..

That is fine, but the fact is we are commanded otherwise.

If it so happened that the thief did not die on the cross he would've baptized himself probably and the Spirit would have guided him into all truth anyway..

If the Spirit guided all believers into the truth, we would all be unified, and there not be all these different churches. This was promised to the Apostles because it is from their accounts of the the events that took place that we have the Bible.

I understand you are not discrediting baptism as I am not discreditng grace.

 

[Israel]

BOTH thieves are saved!

 

[cronjecj]

BOTH thieves are saved!

Hi Israel, do you have scripture to support that?

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Many people were saved and baptised in the Holy Spirit before water baptism in the Book of Acts. We know that we are not saved by works: Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast." Water baptism is for saved people. In obedience to the Scripture and God we must be baptised but we are not saved by works but a good answer toward God which is our faith in the salvation of the Cross of Christ. Water Baptism represents salvation but is not saving in it self. Men are not saved because they were emersed in water they are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[cronjecj]

Many people were saved and baptised in the Holy Spirit before water baptism in the Book of Acts. We know that we are not saved by works: Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast." Water baptism is for saved people. In obedience to the Scripture and God we must be baptised but we are not saved by works but a good answer toward God which is our faith in the salvation of the Cross of Christ. Water Baptism represents salvation but is not saving in it self. Men are not saved because they were emersed in water they are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Speaking truth again are we johnny?

The OP of this thread can join if he wantz..

 

[Israel]

Hi Israel, do you have scripture to support that?

1 John 2:1-2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[cronjecj]

1 John 2:1-2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Dear Israel, what happens to those who refuse to believe in Christ?

1 Peter 4:8 (KJV)
nd if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

For the world yes but the world got to believe first right? but not everyone believes..that is the problem

John 3:16 (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[cronjecj]

1 John 2:1-2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:18 (KJV)
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Israel]

Dear Israel, what happens to those who refuse to believe in Christ?

1 Peter 4:8 (KJV)
nd if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

For the world yes but the world got to believe first right? but not everyone believes..that is the problem

John 3:16 (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who gave man a mouth by which to speak? Who gave him arms and legs upon which to walk and interact? Is it not the LORD?

Is God then limited by that which he GAVE man to save him?

Please listen to the heart of the matter for all who live in fear.

Most people believe that for the vast majority of the human race there is no hope, and we say AMEN to that!?

I say that it is finished! And through His blood, ALL men will come to the TRUE knowledge of God!

 

[feedm3]

Many people were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit before water baptism in the Book of Acts.

No they were not, if fact the baptism of the Holy Spirit only happened two times in the book of Acts.
First, on the Apostles in Acts 2:
Next, on Cornielus in Acts 10:

No one in acts was saved before baptism.
Because that would imply they were saved:
without washing away their sins - Acts 22:16.
Without being added to the Church – Acts 2:38, 47.
Without being freed from sin – Rom 6:3-7.
Without being buried with Chirst – Rom 6:3.

We know that we are not saved by works: Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This does not mean we have do not have to obey God in what he has commanded us to do.
Paul is saying in this chapter that we are saved by God’s grace and making it clear that we did not earn that.
This is speaking of meritorious works Not works of obedience.

This is the same message God has been giving His people since the beginning:
Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart,dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Paul is saying the same thing, it is not because of our righteousness God sent His son to die for our sins.
If so we could “boast.”

This does not mean we do not have to obey God.

Noah found grace, was saved by God’s grace, or in obeying God in building the ark?
Or Both?
Was Noah earning salvation by building the ark?
Or just obeying?

[FONT=&quot]Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/FONT]

Water baptism is for saved people.

Water baptism Is never commanded to a “saved person” if so show me.

In obedience to the Scripture and God we must be baptised but we are not saved by works but a good answer toward God which is our faith in the salvation of the Cross of Christ.

If it does not save then why “must” we do it?
What If I refuse to be baptized, am I saved?

Water Baptism represents salvation but is not saving in it self. Men are not saved because they were emersed in water they are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

How do we contact the “blood of the lamb”?