What About Those Stones?

[Straightshot]

.... the time convention for edit control keeps cutting me off .... I was not finished [this limitation should be corrected]

The top of the mount will be "without" a temple of the Lord's during the tribulation and will be confiscated by the Muslims

The temple in 11:1 is the Lord's temple in heaven ... and those worshiping are the pre-tribulation "church"

 

[kennethcadwell]

.... the time convention for edit control keeps cutting me off .... I was not finished [this limitation should be corrected]

The top of the mount will be "without" a temple of the Lord's during the tribulation and will be confiscated by the Muslims

The temple in 11:1 is the Lord's temple in heaven ... and those worshiping are the pre-tribulation "church"

The temple in Revelation 11 is not in heaven because it shows how the gentiles trample the outer court, and it shows the two witnesses prophecy in front of it. The two witnesses on here on earth, and the antichrist kills them and leaves their bodies laying in the street. The temple is a rebuilt temple here on earth that they are standing before. It is not the dome of the rock.

 

[JimmieD]

Was Christ speaking of just the Temple building proper?

Mt 24:1 Nowas Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.
Mk 13:1 Now as Jesuswas going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!”
Lk 21:5 Nowwhile some were speaking about the temple, how it was adornedwith beautiful stones and offerings,​

I assume when they are talking about the temple, the beautiful stones, tremendous buildings and such, they are talking about the actual temple, not a retaining wall.

 

[john832]

Mt 24:1 Nowas Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.
Mk 13:1 Now as Jesuswas going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!”
Lk 21:5 Nowwhile some were speaking about the temple, how it was adornedwith beautiful stones and offerings,​

I assume when they are talking about the temple, the beautiful stones, tremendous buildings and such, they are talking about the actual temple, not a retaining wall.

Yet it plainly says stones and buildings plural.

 

[JimmieD]

It's like when you see a castle and say,

"Hey look! Theres the castle!"

In other words, the castle's outer wall is still considered a part of the castle (Even though it is not connected in some cases). Kind of the same line of thinking here. When people back in Biblical times seen the Temple in the distance, they didn't say,

"Hey look! There is the Temple wall!"

No, no. That would be silly. They would say it was the Temple while looking at the outer court walls of the Temple.

We're not talking about an outer wall as if it's part of the structure. We're talking about a retaining wall.

We are looking hindsight and reading in a book and we were not there. Read the passsage in Revelation again. John was going to measure the outer court, but he was told specifically not to measure it, though. Why? Because the outer court (i.e. outer wall) was a part of the Temple.

The Western Wall was not the wall for the outer court.

It would be like me building a retaining wall to hold up a pile of dirt, then I build a multi million dollar mansion on top of it with a nice fenced in back yard. If someone looked at my house and commented on the beautiful and expensive house, I think they would be talking about the building in which I lived, not a retaining wall. If my house fell down in a storm or something, so that all that was left was the retaining wall used to hold a pile of dirt in place, I doubt anyone would look at the retaining wall and think the house was still in place.

Also, what about Fortress Antonia? Were the Roman military barracks part of the Temple too?

 

[JimmieD]

Yet it plainly says stones and buildings plural.

Sure, and it's talking about the actual temple, not a retaining wall.

 

[Jason0047]

Sure, and it's talking about the actual temple, not a retaining wall.

According to the Britannica on Judaism, the Jews believe the "Wailing Wall" is a part of the Temple. You can check out that claim by the book here:

Judaism: History, Belief, and Practice - Google Books

And here is the Book at Amazon (To see that it is a real book):

http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-History-Practice-Britannica-Religion/dp/1615304878/

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, the Jews are going to one day rebuild the Temple (Including the "Wailing Wall") Because they think it is a part of the Temple. Soooo.... when that happens are you going to admit Preterism is false?

 

[Jason0047]

Also, just read Revelation. Do any of those things sound like they happened already? Anyone who is honest with themselves would just say.... No, they did not happen yet. I can't remember hearing about an event in history where demons had come up of the ground. I don't remember hearing about an event of any enforcement of the Mark of the Beast. The 4th Seal causes death over one fourth of the Earth. Where did we see that happen in History?

 

[Straightshot]

Kenneth

The temple in Revelation 11:1 is the Lord's temple in heaven

Review Revelation's recording of the same in a number of other scriptures of Revelation .... there are several of them given including those that reside there during the tribulation and also where His judgments upon the earth are coming from

He makes the contrast between His temple in heaven, and the mount without the temple on the earth which has become a Gentile possession [Muslims are Gentiles] that is not worth measuring

 

[JimmieD]

According to the Britannica on Judaism, the Jews believe the "Wailing Wall" is a part of the Temple. You can check out that claim by the book here:

(1) Which Jews believe this?

(2) Whoever thinks that it was part of the temple is technically wrong then considering that it was actually a retaining wall. The Western Wall wasn't even in place until Herod wanted to expand the general area - it was never part of Solomon or Zerubbabel's plans and was never part of the actual temple structure.

I suppose one could be in denial of the actual function and architectural placement of the Western Wall, but that doesn't seem to be my problem.

In other words, the Jews are going to one day rebuild the Temple (Including the "Wailing Wall") Because they think it is a part of the Temple.

Which Jews?

Soooo.... when that happens are you going to admit Preterism is false?

I don't really care if people build a physical Temple, other than the rather unpleasant side effect of a holy war with Muslims that would have to take place first to remove their buildings from the location. But if we ignore the bloodshed and severe costs that would be involved, I don't care if anyone builds one there or not. I guess I would be in a similar position to the Samaritans who would consider it illegitimate. It wouldn't really affect my theology or anything.

 

[Jason0047]

(1) Which Jews believe this?

You would have to consult the author of the Briticanna. They are usually not in the habit of writing fiction but they merely report the facts of things.

(2) Whoever thinks that it was part of the temple is technically wrong then considering that it was actually a retaining wall. The Western Wall wasn't even in place until Herod wanted to expand the general area - it was never part of Solomon or Zerubbabel's plans and was never part of the actual temple structure.

I suppose one could be in denial of the actual function and architectural placement of the Western Wall, but that doesn't seem to be my problem.

You have obviously bought into somebody's false article or statement about this (Whether it is an old false document or a recent one). I choose to believe the Jews report and the Bible on this matter.

I don't really care if people build a physical Temple, other than the rather unpleasant side effect of a holy war with Muslims that would have to take place first to remove their buildings from the location. But if we ignore the bloodshed and severe costs that would be involved, I don't care if anyone builds one there or not. I guess I would be in a similar position to the Samaritans who would consider it illegitimate. It wouldn't really affect my theology or anything.

Uh, if the Jews rebuild their Temple again (Including the "Wailing Wall"), then your whole Preterist Theology should be thrown out the window. For if there was another Temple, surely Jesus would have talked about it. No?

 

[JimmieD]

You would have to consult the author of the Briticanna. They are usually not in the habit of writing fiction but they merely report the facts of things.

Well, since the Western Wall was a retaining wall built as a part of Herod's expansion of the area, and not part of the temple building, it looks like the problem is yours, not mine. Maybe you can find a more accurate source next time.

You have obviously bought into somebody's false article or statement about this (Whether it is an old false document or a recent one).

So you are going to argue my motives or something? I'm simply stating the reality of the architectural placement and function of the Western Wall. Me linking to an article won't change the facts.

I choose to believe the Jews report

What report? Encyclopedia Britannica isn't exactly a Jewish report, nor is it necessarily striving for detail and accuracy in it's articles, which is why nobody cites an encyclopedia in research papers past high school, as that's not the function of an encyclopedia article.

and the Bible on this matter.

Which part?

Uh, if the Jews rebuild their Temple again (Including the "Wailing Wall"), then your whole Preterist Theology should be thrown out the window.

Why?

For if there was another Temple, surely Jesus would have talked about it. No?

Is this an assumption on your part? Is Jesus required to talk about all events that may occur in the future? For a minute I thought you claimed to be getting your ideas from "the Jews" (as if there is some monolithic Jewish canon of thought that all Jews adhere to) and the bible.

I guess on some level Jesus did talk about another temple, which was his body and the church. I mean, he did claim he was going to rebuild the temple in three days, unless you think he just got this one wrong.

 

[Jason0047]

Well, since the Western Wall was a retaining wall built as a part of Herod's expansion of the area, and not part of the temple building, it looks like the problem is yours, not mine. Maybe you can find a more accurate source next time.



So you are going to argue my motives or something? I'm simply stating the reality of the architectural placement and function of the Western Wall. Me linking to an article won't change the facts.



What report? Encyclopedia Britannica isn't exactly a Jewish report, nor is it necessarily striving for detail and accuracy in it's articles, which is why nobody cites an encyclopedia in research papers past high school, as that's not the function of an encyclopedia article.



Which part?



Why?



Is this an assumption on your part? Is Jesus required to talk about all events that may occur in the future? For a minute I thought you claimed to be getting your ideas from "the Jews" (as if there is some monolithic Jewish canon of thought that all Jews adhere to) and the bible.

I guess on some level Jesus did talk about another temple, which was his body and the church. I mean, he did claim he was going to rebuild the temple in three days, unless you think he just got this one wrong.

Just because Herod had designed it does not mean it was not a part of the Temple.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

"Parts of the wall are remnants of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard, and is arguably the most sacred site recognized by the Jewish faith outside of the Temple Mount itself."​

Western Wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, the courtyard was the outercourt of the Temple.

Also, what about Revelation? It is preposterous to believe that those events have happened already.

 

[JimmieD]

Just because Herod had designed it does not mean it was not a part of the Temple.

So in other words, even you recognize that there existed a temple before a western wall. So it stands to reason that it wasn't part of the temple. And in fact, since it was a retaining wall, it indeed never was part of the temple.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

"Parts of the wall are remnants of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard, and is arguably the most sacred site recognized by the Jewish faith outside of the Temple Mount itself."​

Western Wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, the courtyard was the outercourt of the Temple.

What's better than Britannica? Wikipedia of course. You do know that wiki article supports my view anyway, right? You should really read your own sources before you start using them to try to support your view.
.

The wall functions as a retaining wall, built to support the extensive renovations that Herod the Great carried out around 19 BCE.

Today's Western Wall formed part of the retaining perimeter wall of this platform
.​

Some scholars were of the opinion that this referred to a wall of the Temple itself which has long since vanished. Others believed that the wall still stood and was actually a surviving wall of the Temple courtyard. However, today there is no doubt that the wall is the western retaining wall of the Temple Mount
.

​

In any case, it was not the wall for the temple courts; it was a retaining wall.

 

[john832]

In other words, the Jews are going to one day rebuild the Temple (Including the "Wailing Wall") Because they think it is a part of the Temple. Soooo.... when that happens are you going to admit Preterism is false?

No, that is a pernicious disease that seems incurable.

 

[4enlightment]

Is this complete?

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Isaiah 2:19 People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from the fearful presence of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.

Luke 23:29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’
31 For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Matthew 9:15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt (Hebrew: המרד הגדול‎, ha-Mered Ha-Gadol,Latin: Primum populi Romani bellum in Iudaeos[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]), was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews of Judea Province (Iudaea) against the Roman Empire. The second was the Kitos War in 115–117, and the third was Bar Kokhba's revolt of 132–135. First Jewish–Roman War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The siege of Masada was among the final accords of the Great Jewish Revolt, occurring from 73 to 74 CE on a large hilltop in current-day Israel. According to Josephus the long siege by the troops of the Roman Empire led to the mass suicide of theSicarii rebels and resident Jewish families of the Masada fortress. The siege was chronicled by Flavius Josephus, a Jewish rebel leader captured by the Romans, in whose service he became a historian. Masada has become a controversial event in Jewish history, with some regarding it as a place of reverence, commemorating fallen ancestors and their heroic struggle against oppression, and others regarding it as a warning against extremism and the refusal to compromise.

Siege of Masada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jason0047]

So in other words, even you recognize that there existed a temple before a western wall. So it stands to reason that it wasn't part of the temple. And in fact, since it was a retaining wall, it indeed never was part of the temple.



What's better than Britannica? Wikipedia of course. You do know that wiki article supports my view anyway, right? You should really read your own sources before you start using them to try to support your view.
.

The wall functions as a retaining wall, built to support the extensive renovations that Herod the Great carried out around 19 BCE.

Today's Western Wall formed part of the retaining perimeter wall of this platform
.​

Some scholars were of the opinion that this referred to a wall of the Temple itself which has long since vanished. Others believed that the wall still stood and was actually a surviving wall of the Temple courtyard. However, today there is no doubt that the wall is the western retaining wall of the Temple Mount
.

​

In any case, it was not the wall for the temple courts; it was a retaining wall.

It's both. But you focus on only that one side of the truth you are interested in to fit your views, my friend. Besides. What about the events in Revelation?

 

[prove-all]

this gal has found some cool stuff digging

Large Stone Structure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eilat Mazar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[4enlightment]

It seem to me that everyone believe that God is going to restore the temple, but I was wondering how when Jesus said that this temple was going to be rebuild without the use of hands, unless it is going to be rebuild by the use of their feet or earth-moving machinery. People wants to revive our old nature because they are like Lot's wife that had to look back where her heart is eventhough it were all sort of wickedness going on in those cities. But I guess she had loved the wild-life, especially seeing naked men twirling their stuff around.

2 Corinthians 5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.