What are the Consequences of Falling from Grace?

[Goodnewsman]

the only way you could have said LESS is if you would have said MORE. I really think you should read rev. 3 in its context. again, why would God warn them of something that could never happen?

[QUOT=Goodnewsman;2435712]what!! I didn't say anything about the parable of gates????? I quoted Rev 3 Jesus is talking☜ to the CHURCH.

And I was pointing out that the majority of people sitting on pews on Sunday Morning have settled for something less than the born again experience, of finding intense LOVE for CHRIST in our hearts, moving us to willingly surrender to HIM AS MASTER (which is what the word LORD means).

Taking up space on a pew on a regular basis does not make you a CHRISTIAN,
any more than taking up space sitting in a garage on a regular basis would make you a CAR.

Either you are not reading the entire context, or you have entered into it with a presupposition that most or all of those in the Sardis Church were saved. HERE READ THE CONTEXT.


Revelation 3:1-6 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works; you have a name of being alive, but you are dead. { ☜ the majority are COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN.}
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Remember then what you received and heard; obey it, and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes;
{ Those are the FEW who are truly Born Again.}
they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes,
and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;
{ That is a promise to the FEW who are worthy and truly born again;
it is not a threat to the many who are still spiritually dead, because
their names were NEVER WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE TO BE BLOTTED OUT.
See the error of trying to read this with your presupposition that Christ is
threatening to blot out NAMES HE wrote in the book of life prior to the foundation
of the world. YOUR Error in interpretation would mean the perfect TRIUNE DIETY
made a mistake writing those names in the Book of Life in the first place.}
I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.



[/QUOTE]

 

[VCO]

the only way you could have said LESS is if you would have said MORE. I really think you should read rev. 3 in its context. again, why would God warn them of something that could never happen?

Amazing, your presupposition totally blinds you to what it is saying.

It is NOT a WARNING, IT IS A PROMISE, to the FEW who are truly Born Again.

I also have more news for you. CHURCH MEMBERSHIP and sitting on a Pew regularly, DOES NOT MAKE YOU PART OF THE "ASSEMBLY" (the word CHURCH is not in the original GREEK language) that Christ is building.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

That assembly is made up of those who have received HIM as MASTER, (which is what the word LORD really means); establishing an inner personal LOVE relationship, where that submission to HIM is an act of LOVE, after the HOLY SPIRIT has come into your heart and POURED GOD's LOVE directly into your heart. THAT IS WHAT CAUSES YOUR DEAD HUMAN SPIRIT TO BE BIRTHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO ETERNAL LIFE. It is called becoming BORN AGAIN. And ONLY THOSE are part of that spiritual ASSEMBLY (what most English Translations mistakenly call the CHURCH).

As for studying REVELATION, I have studied it VERSE BY VERSE, more thoroughly than most Christians today.

Dr. John MacArthur's 36 hours verse by verse sermons thru the entire book - four times.

Dr. Jack MacArthur's study of the first three chapters of Revelation - twice.

Dr. Chuck Swindoll's study of Revelation - Twice.

Dr. Gil Rugh's study thru Revelation - Once.

Pastor Neil Berry verse by verse thru - Revelation Once.

My personal Bible Studies - at least three times.

Literally all of them only see it as a PROMISE TO TRULY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes;
{ Those are the FEW who are truly Born Again.}
they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes,
and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;
{ That is a promise to the FEW who are worthy and truly born again;
it is not a threat to the many who are still spiritually dead, because
their names were NEVER WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE TO BE BLOTTED OUT.
See the error of trying to read this with your presupposition that Christ is
threatening to blot out NAMES HE wrote in the book of life prior to the foundation
of the world. YOUR Error in interpretation would mean the perfect TRIUNE DIETY
made a mistake writing those names in the Book of Life in the first place.}
I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

Do read my comments in blue this time. YOUR twisting of what it says to make it mean that GOD is threatening to blot out names of those who fail, literally is saying that the infinitely HOLY, infinitely perfect, infinitely full of Grace and MERCY, GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, is less than PERFECT, because HE made a mistake and wrote names in the Book of Life that should not be there.

NOT!

HE IS PERFECT IN ALL OF HIS WAYS, INCLUDING ALL OF THE NAMES HE WROTE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

It is a promise, and not a warning.


Hebrews 13:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Deuteronomy 32:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he.

John 14:16-17 (NLT)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.

Matthew 28:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely
I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


And you want us to believe HIS WORK ON THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, was NOT PERFECT.

Those Promises (including the names in the Book of Life), are only for those who receive the HOLY SPIRIT in their heart; AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SOME MYSTICAL CHARISMATIC FEELING AND EXPERIENCE. I am talking about a GENUINE, inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ.

My turn to ask you a question, "How do you know you are Born Again?"

 

[Goodnewsman]

thanks for the news concerning church membership, I know church membership doesn't save anybody. and WOW sir I must say I am impressed at all your studying that you've done, but "I'm afraid that much learning, hath made thee mad" LOL although it does look like your studying only men that agree with you in the first place.

please stop assuming that I haven't read your post's just because you haven't convinced me in them. ( I have read them)[

I still have to believe this verse is a warning and here is why:
1.) why would God tell them something that he could never do to begin with? lets assume for argument sake it had been written like this "if you conquer I (God) will not lie to you" WAIT, we know God cant lie, right? do you see what I'm saying? the church at sardis must have been scratching there heads on this one if they believed like you.


2.) please, please, please look at verse 5 in your post it starts with the word "IF"!!!! IF YOU CONQUER, IF YOU CONQER


I'm not trying to be elementary here but I took the liberty to look up the word "IF" for us all, here is the link if you don't believe me:

If | Definition of If by Merriam-Webster
[h=2]Simple Definition of if[/h]

• : something that is not certain : something that could either happen or not happen
  
  now that I understand the definition of that word am I safe to assume that "IF" they don't CONQUER (overcome) they may have there names blotted out?
  
  
  as far as your question: how do I know I'm saved? like the old song says "I was there when it happened, I think I ought to know" I heard the preaching of his word and was so convicted in my heart, I remember "counting the cost" as I sat there in the pew as God tenderly called me, finally I got up and to be honest, I believe I was saved before I ever hit the altar. I wept my way through to old time salvation accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and was BORN AGAIN. thanks for asking, I really enjoyed writing that, as it "put me in remember" and brought back a lot of good memories.
  
  UOTE=VCO;2438059]Amazing, your presupposition totally blinds you to what it is saying.
  
  It is NOT a WARNING, IT IS A PROMISE, to the FEW who are truly Born Again.
  
  I also have more news for you. CHURCH MEMBERSHIP and sitting on a Pew regularly, DOES NOT MAKE YOU PART OF THE "ASSEMBLY" (the word CHURCH is not in the original GREEK language) that Christ is building.
  
  Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
  [SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
  
  That assembly is made up of those who have received HIM as MASTER, (which is what the word LORD really means); establishing an inner personal LOVE relationship, where that submission to HIM is an act of LOVE, after the HOLY SPIRIT has come into your heart and POURED GOD's LOVE directly into your heart. THAT IS WHAT CAUSES YOUR DEAD HUMAN SPIRIT TO BE BIRTHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO ETERNAL LIFE. It is called becoming BORN AGAIN. And ONLY THOSE are part of that spiritual ASSEMBLY (what most English Translations mistakenly call the CHURCH).
  
  As for studying REVELATION, I have studied it VERSE BY VERSE, more thoroughly than most Christians today.
  
  Dr. John MacArthur's 36 hours verse by verse sermons thru the entire book - four times.
  
  Dr. Jack MacArthur's study of the first three chapters of Revelation - twice.
  
  Dr. Chuck Swindoll's study of Revelation - Twice.
  
  Dr. Gil Rugh's study thru Revelation - Once.
  
  Pastor Neil Berry verse by verse thru - Revelation Once.
  
  My personal Bible Studies - at least three times.
  
  Literally all of them only see it as a PROMISE TO TRULY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS.
  
  [SUP]4 [/SUP]Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes;
  { Those are the FEW who are truly Born Again.}
  they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
  [SUP]5 [/SUP]If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes,
  and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;
  { That is a promise to the FEW who are worthy and truly born again;
  it is not a threat to the many who are still spiritually dead, because
  their names were NEVER WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE TO BE BLOTTED OUT.
  See the error of trying to read this with your presupposition that Christ is
  threatening to blot out NAMES HE wrote in the book of life prior to the foundation
  of the world. YOUR Error in interpretation would mean the perfect TRIUNE DIETY
  made a mistake writing those names in the Book of Life in the first place.}
  I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.
  [SUP]6 [/SUP]Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
  
  Do read my comments in blue this time. YOUR twisting of what it says to make it mean that GOD is threatening to blot out names of those who fail, literally is saying that the infinitely HOLY, infinitely perfect, infinitely full of Grace and MERCY, GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, is less than PERFECT, because HE made a mistake and wrote names in the Book of Life that should not be there.
  
  NOT!
  
  HE IS PERFECT IN ALL OF HIS WAYS, INCLUDING ALL OF THE NAMES HE WROTE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.
  
  It is a promise, and not a warning.
  
  
  Hebrews 13:5 (NASB)
  [SUP]5 [/SUP] Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
  
  Deuteronomy 32:4 (ASV)
  [SUP]4 [/SUP] The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he.
  
  John 14:16-17 (NLT)
  [SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
  [SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
  
  Matthew 28:20 (NIV)
  [SUP]20 [/SUP] and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely
  I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
  
  
  And you want us to believe HIS WORK ON THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, was NOT PERFECT.
  
  Those Promises (including the names in the Book of Life), are only for those who receive the HOLY SPIRIT in their heart; AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SOME MYSTICAL CHARISMATIC FEELING AND EXPERIENCE. I am talking about a GENUINE, inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ.
  
  My turn to ask you a question, "How do you know you are Born Again?"[/QUOTE]
  
  

 

[VCO]

If you want to make sure everyone understands who said what, then make sure you use the CORRECT bracketQUOTEbracket. Don't get me wrong, I do not mind if you prove you are FALLIBLE, too; HOWEVER I do mind a twisted theology that declares that GOD is FALLIBLE, and wrote names in the BOOK of LIFE that do not belong there, AND THEREFORE HE IS ALSO NOT ALL KNOWING. That is exactly what your theology does.

THE GOD I LOVE AND SERVE, IS INFALLIBLE AND ALL KNOWING. HE DID NOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES, you did. Think it through.

BUT FIRST, look where the "IF" belongs.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me {only those who are Born Again, truly LOVE HIM}, you will keep My commands.

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

THAT "IF" is the definitive difference between those who entered the Broad Gate, and those who entered the Narrow Gate.

NO CONTINUALLY LOVING EFFORTS TO OBEY HIM OUT OF THE LOVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO ONE'S HEART (Rom. 5:5), only validates that person NEVER was Born Again in the first place:

1 John 2:19 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They left us. However, they were never really part of us. If they had been, they would have stayed with us. But by leaving they made it clear that none of them were part of us.

HOW MANY OF THOSE THAT LEFT US, DOES IT SAY WERE NEVER PART OF THE "BORN AGAIN" ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS?

AND WHY IS THE SECURITY OF A "BORN AGAIN" BELIEVER, THAT ABSOLUTELY ASSURED?

John 10:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] "I and the Father are one."

It is NOT ETERNAL, if you can lose it, and what part of NEVER, do you not understand. NO, they NEVER WERE SAVED (Born Again). Knowledge and agreement of Who He IS, is not SAVING FAITH, it is the same kind of Faith the DEMONS HAVE.

Luke 8:28-31 (NRSV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus, he fell down before him and shouted at the top of his voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me"—
[SUP]29 [/SUP] for Jesus had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many times it had seized him; he was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the wilds.)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They begged him not to order them to go back into the abyss.

We who are truly "born again", cannot lose our Salvation, because WE are not the one's holding on to it, and HE also is the One who is Maturing us spiritually.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

LOOK how much SCRIPTURE your false theology about losing your Salvation contradicts. It is NOT a question of whether or not you can hang on to your Salvation; but rather it is a question of whether or not you were ever truly BORN AGAIN by the Holy Spirit.


I ask you again, "How do you know you were truly "Born Again"?

 

[blondieindahouse]

This is such crock. GOD the father was well pleased with Jesus because he was perfectly obedient. Can anyone seriously think that Jesus would have been in good standing with the father if he hadn't been perfectly obedient to him?

Well, actually its a moot point because Jesus> fully man fully God.

 

[VCO]

This is such crock. GOD the father was well pleased with Jesus because he was perfectly obedient. Can anyone seriously think that Jesus would have been in good standing with the father if he hadn't been perfectly obedient to him?

Yes, I too have a problem with the way you worded that post. It seems to ignore the FACT that each person within the Triune Deity, is Co-equally GOD HIMSELF.

Colossians 2:8-9 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I had to use the KJV on that verse, because I love that expression: "To wit". LOL, I guess that dates me.

John 14:8-11 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves.

NOTICE: Jesus says it is the FATHER Dwelling In HIM, who DOES THE WORKS. That theory that it is Jesus apart from the Father, doing what pleases the Father, is a boat with a big whole in it.

Philippians 2:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death— even to death on a cross.


To put it in simple terms, we Christians are to be in agreement with Christ, that HE WAS FULLY GOD, but during His ministry here on Earth, HE did not take up that DEITY, and use it for HIS personal advantage. HE REALLY SUFFERED AND HE REALLY DIED for our SINS.

Now I frequently like to explain the Holy Trinity, like this to Unbelievers, even though it too, is less than 100% accurate:

We are a mirrored image of what the Holy Trinity is like. The Bible says that a Human Being is made up of three distinct parts that make up that ONE whole Human Being, 1 Thess. 5:23. We are created in the image of GOD, and because we are three distinct parts body and soul and spirit​ making up that ONE Human Being, Gen. 1:26-27.


Yes that can be somewhat helpful in explaining how THREE can be ONE, to an unbeliever. BUT STILL IT IS FAR FROM A PERFECT EXAMPLE. Why do I say that? Because:

1. a human being is NOT DEITY, while the Trinity is co-equally the ONLY DEITY THAT EXISTS, Isa. 43:10-11 & Lk. 2:11.

2. The other primary difference is we have a dividing line between our three parts that make up the whole, WHILE WITHIN GOD, THERE IS NO DIVIDING LINE BETWEEN THE THREE DISTINCTIVE PARTS THAT MAKE UP THE ONE AND ONLY GOD THAT EXISTS. ALL THREE PARTS OF THE TRINITY ARE CO-EQUALLY GOD.

 

[Goodnewsman]

concerning me being born again I will ask you to just read my last post were I told you.

do you think loooooong answers means you answered my question? you never even addressed by question about Rev. 3:5 while telling me how wrong I am.

slow down and read the definition of the word "IF" again

I don't believe we can "lose" our salvation, but we can "leave" it and walk away from God like many did in the bible. should I even mention JUDAS who was saved? killed himself and died lost

John 15:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

look, there is that word again "IF"........if we don't "abide" or remain (that's our part) in Christ ....cast in the fire (a branch that was apart of the vine.....cast into the fire) how can you say he never was saved when he clearly said he was part of the vine?

ETERNAL LIFE is only "in Christ" if we don't abide in Christ, do we still have it? of course not

If you want to make sure everyone understands who said what, then make sure you use the CORRECT bracketQUOTEbracket. Don't get me wrong, I do not mind if you prove you are FALLIBLE, too; HOWEVER I do mind a twisted theology that declares that GOD is FALLIBLE, and wrote names in the BOOK of LIFE that do not belong there, AND THEREFORE HE IS ALSO NOT ALL KNOWING. That is exactly what your theology does.

THE GOD I LOVE AND SERVE, IS INFALLIBLE AND ALL KNOWING. HE DID NOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES, you did. Think it through.

BUT FIRST, look where the "IF" belongs.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me {only those who are Born Again, truly LOVE HIM}, you will keep My commands.

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

THAT "IF" is the definitive difference between those who entered the Broad Gate, and those who entered the Narrow Gate.

NO CONTINUALLY LOVING EFFORTS TO OBEY HIM OUT OF THE LOVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO ONE'S HEART (Rom. 5:5), only validates that person NEVER was Born Again in the first place:

1 John 2:19 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They left us. However, they were never really part of us. If they had been, they would have stayed with us. But by leaving they made it clear that none of them were part of us.

HOW MANY OF THOSE THAT LEFT US, DOES IT SAY WERE NEVER PART OF THE "BORN AGAIN" ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS?

AND WHY IS THE SECURITY OF A "BORN AGAIN" BELIEVER, THAT ABSOLUTELY ASSURED?

John 10:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] "I and the Father are one."

It is NOT ETERNAL, if you can lose it, and what part of NEVER, do you not understand. NO, they NEVER WERE SAVED (Born Again). Knowledge and agreement of Who He IS, is not SAVING FAITH, it is the same kind of Faith the DEMONS HAVE.

Luke 8:28-31 (NRSV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus, he fell down before him and shouted at the top of his voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me"—
[SUP]29 [/SUP] for Jesus had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many times it had seized him; he was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the wilds.)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They begged him not to order them to go back into the abyss.

We who are truly "born again", cannot lose our Salvation, because WE are not the one's holding on to it, and HE also is the One who is Maturing us spiritually.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

LOOK how much SCRIPTURE your false theology about losing your Salvation contradicts. It is NOT a question of whether or not you can hang on to your Salvation; but rather it is a question of whether or not you were ever truly BORN AGAIN by the Holy Spirit.


I ask you again, "How do you know you were truly "Born Again"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is such crock. GOD the father was well pleased with Jesus because he was perfectly obedient. Can anyone seriously think that Jesus would have been in good standing with the father if he hadn't been perfectly obedient to him?

This poses dire consequences.

If what you say is true, No one will get to heaven, Because as you said, How can we be in good standing with the father, since we have been disobedient to him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This poses dire consequences.

If what you say is true, No one will get to heaven, Because as you said, How can we be in good standing with the father, since we have been disobedient to him.

I don't understand how you can say that. Perfect righteousness is not required from us. That's what grace is about. However, we must through faith abide in the grace of GOD that was made possible through his perfect righteousness.

 

[sondra333]

Brother Goodnewsman,
I had written to you on page 11 of this thread did you get the oppourtunity to read it? I believe that it answered the questions that you have set forth and as far as the example of suicide once again we don't know this person's heart that is the reason why God is the one and only true judge for i know many are very sorry and seek His forgiveness as the do such a thing and as far as repentance they just don't have the strength, and i would remind us all that in this flesh none of us are perfect and if we had seeked repentance for all sins then why are you still not perfect? And did the Lord not die for all sins? Please don't missunderstand and think within yourself that i would encourage suicide...I WOULD NOT, i would try hopefully with the help of the Comforter to reach them and strengthen them to change their minds, but i do believe that none are perfect regardless of the ability to repent from some sins and yet not other's and i do believe that Jesus died for all sins and that the Heavenly Father knows the hearts of man which we do not and i am certain He knows of hypocrites for after all the Lord spoke to the Pharisses and Saduacess in such a manner did he not? So why are you so troubled with this?

 

[Grace777x70]

Perhaps this scripture might help us out...Jesus sure comes in handy here for us!..it always comes back to Jesus and His finished work for us.

Romans 5:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

This poses dire consequences.

If what you say is true, No one will get to heaven, Because as you said, How can we be in good standing with the father, since we have been disobedient to him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't understand how you can say that. Perfect righteousness is not required from us.

It is required of is, When have I ever said it was not? (as far as salvation is concerned)

Thats why Christ had to become man, Be born in a manger, Suffer as no human has ever suffered, And then after all this, endure the pain of the cross.

Because we have failed to live up to this standard

Are failing to live up to this standard

and will continue (in the flesh) to live up to this standard.

That's what grace is about. However, we must through faith abide in the grace of GOD that was made possible through his perfect righteousness.

No Grace is about a person who deserves eternal condemnation, because they have failed to live up to the standard, being given eternal life based on what the giver has done, Because they one who was given can not pay for it him or herself.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is required of is, When have I ever said it was not? (as far as salvation is concerned)

Thats why Christ had to become man, Be born in a manger, Suffer as no human has ever suffered, And then after all this, endure the pain of the cross.

Because we have failed to live up to this standard

Are failing to live up to this standard

and will continue (in the flesh) to live up to this standard.



No Grace is about a person who deserves eternal condemnation, because they have failed to live up to the standard, being given eternal life based on what the giver has done, Because they one who was given can not pay for it him or herself.

Let me repeat: Perfect righteousness is not required from us. Faith in Christ's perfect righteousness is required. Grace is overlooking our imperfections through Christ's perfect righteousness until we are perfected in righteousness at the lord's return.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Let me repeat: Perfect righteousness is not required from us. Faith in Christ's perfect righteousness is required. Grace is overlooking our imperfections through Christ's perfect righteousness until we are perfected in righteousness at the lord's return.

Perfect righteousness IS what is required.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me repeat: Perfect righteousness is not required from us. Faith in Christ's perfect righteousness is required. Grace is overlooking our imperfections through Christ's perfect righteousness until we are perfected in righteousness at the lord's return.

yeah, actually it is, if we want to save ourselves. and live up to Gods standard.

Otherwise, we must rely on Grace.

Those are your ownly two options. there is not a third.

 

[Goodnewsman]

hello Sondra333
I did answer your first post, its on page 12 #234 (little advise, break up your paragraphs a little. long paragraphs makes it hard to read)

I think your asking me why suicide bothers me? well for one "all murderers shall have there part in the lake of fire" (probably what bothers me the most)

also if your argument is that some people just get so stressed out that they have no other option then the bible is a lie. lets look at this verse:

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

hope this helps.....................you can read my response to your first question on page 12

Brother Goodnewsman,
I had written to you on page 11 of this thread did you get the oppourtunity to read it? I believe that it answered the questions that you have set forth and as far as the example of suicide once again we don't know this person's heart that is the reason why God is the one and only true judge for i know many are very sorry and seek His forgiveness as the do such a thing and as far as repentance they just don't have the strength, and i would remind us all that in this flesh none of us are perfect and if we had seeked repentance for all sins then why are you still not perfect? And did the Lord not die for all sins? Please don't missunderstand and think within yourself that i would encourage suicide...I WOULD NOT, i would try hopefully with the help of the Comforter to reach them and strengthen them to change their minds, but i do believe that none are perfect regardless of the ability to repent from some sins and yet not other's and i do believe that Jesus died for all sins and that the Heavenly Father knows the hearts of man which we do not and i am certain He knows of hypocrites for after all the Lord spoke to the Pharisses and Saduacess in such a manner did he not? So why are you so troubled with this?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Perfect righteousness IS what is required.

Then you are lost and will never be saved. Only Christ is perfectly righteous. GOD overlooks our unrighteouness through Christ's perfect righteousness that has been imputed to us through grace. Imputation means considered as one's own, not has become one's own.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Then you are lost and will never be saved. Only Christ is perfectly righteous. GOD overlooks our unrighteouness through Christ's perfect righteousness that has been imputed to us through grace. Imputation means considered as one's own, not has become one's own.

Hey, you're starting to get it!

 

[VCO]

concerning me being born again I will ask you to just read my last post were I told you.

do you think loooooong answers means you answered my question? you never even addressed by question about Rev. 3:5 while telling me how wrong I am.

slow down and read the definition of the word "IF" again

I don't believe we can "lose" our salvation, but we can "leave" it and walk away from God like many did in the bible. should I even mention JUDAS who was saved? killed himself and died lost

John 15:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

look, there is that word again "IF"........if we don't "abide" or remain (that's our part) in Christ ....cast in the fire (a branch that was apart of the vine.....cast into the fire) how can you say he never was saved when he clearly said he was part of the vine?

ETERNAL LIFE is only "in Christ" if we don't abide in Christ, do we still have it? of course not

I noticed that you had difficulty, remembering and defining "How you know you are Born Again"; something every single Born Again Christian should be able to do EASILY. Why do I say that, because those kind of memories should remain FRESH in our minds every time we worship. I frequently have tears flowing in Church, as we sing certain songs, remembering HOW HE SAVED ME. But there is more to it than that:

Do you hunger and thirst for more understanding in His word, or are you content with what you think you know?
Do you mourn when you hear someone denying Jesus?
Do you Love all the brethren, or only those from your denomination?
Does HE SPEAK TO YOUR HEART, as you read HIS WORD?
Do you desire do SERVE HIM, purely out of LOVE for HIM?
Do you LOVE JESUS more than anyone else, including your spouse?
Do you LONG to go home to be with Jesus in Heaven?
Do you sense a born again Christian near you (spirit ministering to spirit) before you ever talk to him or her?
Do you ever wake up finding you human spirit is already singing gospel songs in your heart?
Do you KNOW you really have a serious inner and very personal, LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ?

Here is what it says in 1 John:

1 John 2:3-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

AND may I point out, JUDAS NEVER WAS SAVED, he followed Jesus for financial gain, and an important position in the Kingdom. Following Jesus for any reason other than LOVE FOR HIM, is of no value to GOD, and does not equate to Salvation. When Judas figured out that Jesus was NOT going set up His Kingdom at that time, Judas sold Jesus for a few pieces of Silver, so as not to leave empty handed. Remember Judas carried the purse for the Disciples, his focus always was on the money. NOTICE, that in Young's Literal Translation, it calls Judas the Son of the Destruction. That is because Judas was the ONLY ONE that came through the Broad Gate that leads to Destruction and NOT through the NARROW GATE that leads to genuine Salvation. ONLY those who come through that NARROW GATE are Saved and will be Called to Heaven when our Bridegroom sends the Archangel to Call Us out.

John 17:12 (YLT)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.

LOOK at what happens when we do ABIDE IN HIM, HE is the ONE that holds on to our Salvation, HE is the ONE Who brings us to FULL Maturity, continually molding us to be more and more like HIM. Therefore what YOU call walking away from abiding in HIM, only VALIDATES that you NEVER REALLY WERE IN HIM.

1 John 2:19 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They left us. However, they were never really part of us. If they had been, they would have stayed with us. But by leaving they made it clear that none of them were part of us.

John 15:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Jude 1:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NOT ONE PERSON ON THE BROAD ROAD IS REALLY SAVED (BORN AGAIN), AND NOT ONE PERSON ON THE NARROW ROAD WILL WALK AWAY FROM CHRIST WHO IS IN THEIR HEARTS CONTROLLING THEIR LIVES.

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

John 10:28-30 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. {Not even SELF.}
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and My Father are one."No, your theology does not square with what the Scriptures actually say.

The problem, is the majority of Churches no longer teach the GOSPEL the way it was taught when I was growing up in the Bible Belt of America. The way it was taught, for all the centuries before, is there is NO TURNING BACK, if you truly made that decision to FOLLOW JESUS. Now, in this world of ENTERTAIN ME congregations, fewer and fewer actually make that total surrender to JESUS. I am sorry, but that easy believism gospel, is a FALSE GOSPEL, that does not SAVE, and ushers their followers onto the BROAD ROAD that leads to Destruction, that is why they appear to walk away from Jesus. THEY ENTERED THE WRONG GATE.

REMEMBER: Jesus is the Potter, we are but only the clay. It JESUS who is continually molding us, if we really were saved in the first place.

<strong>[video=youtube;55eESzdyPoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55eESzdyPoY[/video]

 

[royalscot]

7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)

if paul was a apostle to the gentiles, and peter ministry was for jewish.

then who would the like of john and jude be writing to. etc

the spiritual,(difference between grace and law.) truth was told by paul. to peter. etc


14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"


It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

leading to

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?