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A
"For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer." Isaiah 54:7, 8
Going to read this verse in context and come back later after some prayer. Maybe we will be better able to understand each other than.
Going to read this verse in context and come back later after some prayer. Maybe we will be better able to understand each other than.
And they are entitled to believe however they want and how we interpret scripture in light of other scriptures has a lot to do with things too. I won't call them a heretic or insult them just because they believe something different...
I think people should just give out the scriptures of what they believe and leave it in the hands of the Lord. I respect them too for their beliefs and we can actually converse back and forth and joke with each other about it too with some fellow brethren.
I do that now with a few in CC and we tease each other in a good, fun, respectful way - but with some others here - I stay away from them because of their bad behavior like I do the porn ads that pop up on my PC from time to time. This has nothing to do with the disagreeing on some subjects - it's to do with their behavior. Anyway - that's a different subject...lol
I too believed in the past like the ones that believe they lose salvation because of my church teachings but once I learned about the gospel of the grace of God in Christ - that all melted away and those "seemingly conflicting" scriptures opened up and became clear and only confirmed my beliefs in Christ's work.
Anyway - I think we flogged this horse for all it's worth...lol.
Have a great night - I am off to do some reading. I have a new book which is interesting - "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes - removing cultural blindness to better understand the bible."
Bless you!
I think people should just give out the scriptures of what they believe and leave it in the hands of the Lord. I respect them too for their beliefs and we can actually converse back and forth and joke with each other about it too with some fellow brethren.
I do that now with a few in CC and we tease each other in a good, fun, respectful way - but with some others here - I stay away from them because of their bad behavior like I do the porn ads that pop up on my PC from time to time. This has nothing to do with the disagreeing on some subjects - it's to do with their behavior. Anyway - that's a different subject...lol
I too believed in the past like the ones that believe they lose salvation because of my church teachings but once I learned about the gospel of the grace of God in Christ - that all melted away and those "seemingly conflicting" scriptures opened up and became clear and only confirmed my beliefs in Christ's work.
Anyway - I think we flogged this horse for all it's worth...lol.
Have a great night - I am off to do some reading. I have a new book which is interesting - "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes - removing cultural blindness to better understand the bible."
Bless you!
A
I thought that was the meaning of Him turning His face?
When God withholds His protection and allows the,enemy and forces of this world and consquences of our decisions affect us instead of His grace and mercy and forgiveness.
When His face is upon us the Enemy is far from us and those around us.
When His face is turned, we feel forsaken and are troubled by the enemy attacks. However even in the Old testament if His people cried out, He was always there to deliver them.
When God withholds His protection and allows the,enemy and forces of this world and consquences of our decisions affect us instead of His grace and mercy and forgiveness.
When His face is upon us the Enemy is far from us and those around us.
When His face is turned, we feel forsaken and are troubled by the enemy attacks. However even in the Old testament if His people cried out, He was always there to deliver them.
Hi Ariel, I've been thinking on this for a couple of days, not really sure what I believed about God hiding his face. I've heard it taught on Christian radio and somehow it didn't sit right with me, but I never got the word out to study it to see why it bothered me.
And I don't have a great revelation from God, but a scripture popped into my head tonight. It was Jesus saying, "Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Here's the context.
Matthew 28:16-20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
So Jesus is about to leave the earth and He had one last thing to say to the disciples before He left. He wanted them to preach the gospel making disciples of all nations.
Jesus had been given all power and authority on heaven and earth and He's saying that as they go and make disciples, they will have all power and authority to do so in Him.
They can be assured that Jesus would be with them always. So it made me think that no, God won't turn His back on us if we're in Him. Jesus said I'm with you always - even to the end of the age. So I think that means us today as well. Not just the original disciples.
We continue to carry on the preaching of the gospel and continue to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We continue to teach the new converts to obey all the commands of Jesus. So don't you think this would still be for today where He says I will be with you always? How can Jesus be with us always and turn His back on us at the same time? So if we truly are in Him, in Christ, He is with us when we're preaching and teaching, He's with us when we're persecuted, He's with us when we're sick and in need of consolation, He's with us when we were just tempted to lie.
I was thinking that for God to turn His back on us, the Holy Spirt would have to leave and then return somehow. I'm just thinking out loud here.
I'm trying to think how that would work for God to turn His back on us today. In the OT it seems he punished them, exiled them. But today, God stays with us and disciplines us. I'll think more on this, but that's what popped into my mind tonight. I look forward to hearing what you think.
P
I can't think of a reason for the Lord to hide his face. Seek me while I may be found says the Lord. I can't see a life guard turning his face away from a drowning victim.
What I find interesting is that we compare Israel to the church in a lot of scenarios. There is a great difference in us and them. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus, we are complete in Christ. We have a different relationship with the Lord than Israel. We have a mediator that intercede for us. The indwelling of the holy spirit. We are in christ
And He in us. We have been sealed and saved. Totally different than Israel.
What I find interesting is that we compare Israel to the church in a lot of scenarios. There is a great difference in us and them. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus, we are complete in Christ. We have a different relationship with the Lord than Israel. We have a mediator that intercede for us. The indwelling of the holy spirit. We are in christ
And He in us. We have been sealed and saved. Totally different than Israel.
A
Turn his back and turn His face are two totally different concepts.
The first implies that God is ignoring you.
The second has more to do with God not protecting you from the consequences of your actions.
Not that He isn't going to rescue you from the death penalty.,,more as if you got drunk, thrown in jail and God allows you to stay in jail instead of bailing you out right away to teach you that your actions have consequences. You can't sin and expect God's love and grace to cover you always and never have to suffer for your defiance and disrespect of God and His rules.
It is tied in with God's chastenment.
However I would agree God never turns His back on us or forsake us forever. However, for a time He does turn His face from us if we sin and refuse to admit that we have sinned.
The first implies that God is ignoring you.
The second has more to do with God not protecting you from the consequences of your actions.
Not that He isn't going to rescue you from the death penalty.,,more as if you got drunk, thrown in jail and God allows you to stay in jail instead of bailing you out right away to teach you that your actions have consequences. You can't sin and expect God's love and grace to cover you always and never have to suffer for your defiance and disrespect of God and His rules.
It is tied in with God's chastenment.
However I would agree God never turns His back on us or forsake us forever. However, for a time He does turn His face from us if we sin and refuse to admit that we have sinned.
A
Yes if the drunk realizes that the reason he was bailed out is because God looked upon him again and forgave him through God's mercy and grace.
For the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.
Born again believers have the Holy Spirit to intercede for us and ask God to look upon us again. When in truth we deserve punishment, He gives us mercy.
However I wonder how many people even notice when God looks away from them in order to repent or if God has to do something more extreme to get their attention?
For the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.
Born again believers have the Holy Spirit to intercede for us and ask God to look upon us again. When in truth we deserve punishment, He gives us mercy.
However I wonder how many people even notice when God looks away from them in order to repent or if God has to do something more extreme to get their attention?
A
In the evenings and at night in my house,we typically dontwork but rest and spend time with loved ones.
Maybe when it feels like spiritual night, God is telling us to rest and spend time with Him instead of trying and working?
We can watch and see the evil happening in the world. Trying to walk in darkness will cause us to stumble and fall, so we need to learn to stand still when God tells us to and move when He directs us to.
The concept "waiting upon the Lord"
Maybe when it feels like spiritual night, God is telling us to rest and spend time with Him instead of trying and working?
We can watch and see the evil happening in the world. Trying to walk in darkness will cause us to stumble and fall, so we need to learn to stand still when God tells us to and move when He directs us to.
The concept "waiting upon the Lord"
A
Example of God hiding His face from the WHOLE world, NOT just Israel
Psalm 104 (select verses)
The earth is satisfied with the fruit of Your works.
Man goes out to his work
And to his labor until the evening.
O Lord, how manifold are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all.
The earth is full of Your possessions
These all wait for You, That You may give them their food in due season. What You give them they gather in; You open Your hand, they are filled with good. You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.
Psalm 104 (select verses)
The earth is satisfied with the fruit of Your works.
Man goes out to his work
And to his labor until the evening.
O Lord, how manifold are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all.
The earth is full of Your possessions
These all wait for You, That You may give them their food in due season. What You give them they gather in; You open Your hand, they are filled with good. You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.
The other thing to consider is - what if God never does turn His face away from us that are in Christ? What if it's our own thinking that we think He is angry with us and so He turns His face away from us because we have been taught this?
Romans 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
It is the "not knowing the riches of His goodness/kindness" to us that can warp our thinking towards Him.
What if the scripture that says "It's the goodness/kindness of God that brings repentance" is true when He gives us a revelation of His love and grace towards us because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.
That in fact He will never leave us nor forsake us. Would the knowledge of that help us to trust in Him and stop trying to live life by our own ways and thinking?
Would the knowledge that He will never turn away from us make us trust Him more and to rely on Him in every situation? Is ay Yes!
I say - Yes! I know - because that is exactly what He did for me.
Romans 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
It is the "not knowing the riches of His goodness/kindness" to us that can warp our thinking towards Him.
What if the scripture that says "It's the goodness/kindness of God that brings repentance" is true when He gives us a revelation of His love and grace towards us because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.
That in fact He will never leave us nor forsake us. Would the knowledge of that help us to trust in Him and stop trying to live life by our own ways and thinking?
Would the knowledge that He will never turn away from us make us trust Him more and to rely on Him in every situation? Is ay Yes!
I say - Yes! I know - because that is exactly what He did for me.
A
Going to examine more verses in the Bible with the phrase.
PSALM 10 A Song of Confidence in God's Triumph over Evil
1 Why do You stand afar off, O Lord? Why do You hide in times of trouble?
The wicked in his pride persecutes the poor; Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised. For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire; He blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.
His ways are always prospering; Your judgments are far above, out of his sight; As for all his enemies, he sneers at them.
He has said in his heart, “I shall not be moved; I shall never be in adversity.” His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and oppression; Under his tongue is trouble and iniquity. He sits in the lurking places of the villages; In the secret places he murders the innocent; His eyes are secretly fixed on the helpless. He lies in wait secretly, as a lion in his den; He lies in wait to catch the poor; He catches the poor when he draws him into his net. So he crouches, he lies low, That the helpless may fall by his strength.
He has said in his heart, “God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will never see.”
Arise, O Lord! O God, lift up Your hand! Do not forget the humble. Why do the wicked renounce God? He has said in his heart, “You will not require an account.”
But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief, To repay it by Your hand. The helpless commits himself to You; You are the helper of the fatherless. ** Break the arm of the wicked and the evil man; Seek out his wickedness until You find none. The Lord is King forever and ever; The nations have perished out of His land. Lord, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will prepare their heart; You will cause Your ear to hear, To do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, That the man of the earth may oppress no more
PSALM 10 A Song of Confidence in God's Triumph over Evil
1 Why do You stand afar off, O Lord? Why do You hide in times of trouble?
The wicked in his pride persecutes the poor; Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised. For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire; He blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.
His ways are always prospering; Your judgments are far above, out of his sight; As for all his enemies, he sneers at them.
He has said in his heart, “I shall not be moved; I shall never be in adversity.” His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and oppression; Under his tongue is trouble and iniquity. He sits in the lurking places of the villages; In the secret places he murders the innocent; His eyes are secretly fixed on the helpless. He lies in wait secretly, as a lion in his den; He lies in wait to catch the poor; He catches the poor when he draws him into his net. So he crouches, he lies low, That the helpless may fall by his strength.
He has said in his heart, “God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will never see.”
Arise, O Lord! O God, lift up Your hand! Do not forget the humble. Why do the wicked renounce God? He has said in his heart, “You will not require an account.”
But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief, To repay it by Your hand. The helpless commits himself to You; You are the helper of the fatherless. ** Break the arm of the wicked and the evil man; Seek out his wickedness until You find none. The Lord is King forever and ever; The nations have perished out of His land. Lord, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will prepare their heart; You will cause Your ear to hear, To do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, That the man of the earth may oppress no more
B
Sorry I completely disagree God doesn't need to hide his face He can handle anything in front of him...
This hiding face thing is from a mistranslation of old text and now people are so ingrained in that theory, it's like trying to lead a blind horse to water they just can't see the truth in languages..
This hiding face thing is from a mistranslation of old text and now people are so ingrained in that theory, it's like trying to lead a blind horse to water they just can't see the truth in languages..
A
So in psalm 10 we have the wicked person murdering people and commiting all sorts of sin because they believe God is not watching and won't punish them. However, the Islamist affirms that God is watching and justice will be done. Interesting. Still needs to examine what the author means when he ask God why He hides His face...
A
How does the phrase "God hides His face" leads you to infer that God can't handle something?
The problem is that people infer more meaning to the words.
You might hide your face because you don't want to deal with something, but that doesn't mean God does it for those reasons.
The words are clearly in the Bible. I want to understand what was happening in the author life that inspired him to write those words and if there is a parallel to our lives today. Do we experience moments of God hiding His face?
Yes some people think it's not really God hiding as us not seeing God work. Psalm 10 would agree with that assessment.
However psalm 104 and the other Isaiah show that sometimes God will turn His face or forsake us for a little while to allow things to die in our lives and hearts that war against Him. However afterwards He will send His Holy Spirit to bless and renew us.
At least that is what I have learnt from my study of the phrase and scripture so far.
I also wonder at the concept of how God said He would forsake his bride for a little while but how Jesus step up instead. How Jesus said He would leave a little while but would send His Holy spirit. Truthfully I am studying verses trying to understand. I apologise if I don't blindly swallow what I have been told.
If consider me a horse and are trying to lead me to water, then you will have a hard time for I will only drink the pure water flowing from the Holy Spirit. Wisdom that is pure, gentle, patient and kind. Too often the vessel adds too much salt to be very refreshing,
The problem is that people infer more meaning to the words.
You might hide your face because you don't want to deal with something, but that doesn't mean God does it for those reasons.
The words are clearly in the Bible. I want to understand what was happening in the author life that inspired him to write those words and if there is a parallel to our lives today. Do we experience moments of God hiding His face?
Yes some people think it's not really God hiding as us not seeing God work. Psalm 10 would agree with that assessment.
However psalm 104 and the other Isaiah show that sometimes God will turn His face or forsake us for a little while to allow things to die in our lives and hearts that war against Him. However afterwards He will send His Holy Spirit to bless and renew us.
At least that is what I have learnt from my study of the phrase and scripture so far.
I also wonder at the concept of how God said He would forsake his bride for a little while but how Jesus step up instead. How Jesus said He would leave a little while but would send His Holy spirit. Truthfully I am studying verses trying to understand. I apologise if I don't blindly swallow what I have been told.
If consider me a horse and are trying to lead me to water, then you will have a hard time for I will only drink the pure water flowing from the Holy Spirit. Wisdom that is pure, gentle, patient and kind. Too often the vessel adds too much salt to be very refreshing,
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