What did the Jew receive first?

[Ariel82]

even now many people still have the veil upon their hearts even if they read scripture every day"

[h=1]2 Corinthians 3:14-16New King James Version (NKJV)[/h]14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[just-me]

Okay . . that is the problem and is what is confusing me . . . Are you saying that this information was given in the OT? Or because Paul was a Jew and was given this revelation regarding the mystery? When you started off with scripture concerning the "mystery" is I think what threw off many, including me!

According to Isaiah an old testament prophet the mystery was there then.
Matthew 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came , and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given .
12 For whosoever hath , to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear , and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing , and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

[Elin]

Yep I thought that was what this thread was discussing.....
Even after spending a lifetime with Jesus His Jewish followers did not understand scripture until He opened their understanding.......
Luke 24
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and theProphets and the Psalms concerning Me.”45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things.

Actually, it is only the eleven and those assembled with them that Jesus is addressing here.

It is these who took the gospel to the rest of the Jews, many of whom rejected it, before it was then taken to the Gentiles.

 

[Elin]

The original question of the name of the thread. That's the question. It is a rather simple question and with discussing. There are some that are making it confusing by throwing in a kinds of other things. The answer is that *That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,
Post 242

Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles (plural) and prophets (Plural) by the Spirit;
6 *That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This information came through the Jewish apostles and prophets. Peter was one of those apostles that went to Cornelius.

That would be the NT church, not the OT Jews.

And the NT church took the revelation first to the Jewish nation, who rejected it, so it was then taken to the Gentiles.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles (plural) and prophets (Plural) by the Spirit;
6 *That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

What do "fellowheirs" mean to you?

NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets of the NT

Peter was given the vision concerning "nothing is unclean"; that salvation was also for the Gentiles because God gave them the like gift as he did unto us who believed. Did they fully understand the implication?

Paul was given by revelation that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs - heirs to all things in Christ, heirs to eternal life, of the same body with Christ as the head, i.e. the church and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel - being baptized by one Spirit into ONE body where there is no distinction between Jew nor Gentile.

All I want to know is - are you saying that this "mystery" was known before Paul revealed it in his letters?

 

[Elin]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles (plural) and prophets (Plural) by the Spirit;
6 *That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

What do "fellowheirs" mean to you?

In the NT it means fellow heirs in the glory of Christ, along with the Jews, in the NT church.

 

[just-me]

NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets of the NT

Peter was given the vision concerning "nothing is unclean"; that salvation was also for the Gentiles because God gave them the like gift as he did unto us who believed. Did they fully understand the implication?

Paul was given by revelation that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs - heirs to all things in Christ, heirs to eternal life, of the same body with Christ as the head, i.e. the church and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel - being baptized by one Spirit into ONE body where there is no distinction between Jew nor Gentile.

All I want to know is - are you saying that this "mystery" was known before Paul revealed it in his letters?

Yes it was. (Matthew 13:11) Keep in mind that Jesus taught before the New Testament was in place.
Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth .

According to Isaiah an old testament prophet the mystery was there then.
Matthew 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came , and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given .
12 For whosoever hath , to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear , and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing , and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

[Elin]

even now many people still have the veil upon their hearts even if they read scripture every day"

2 Corinthians 3:14-16New King James Version (NKJV)

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament,
because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Paul is referring to the Jews of his day, and still today, who do not really understand the OT because it cannot be truly understood apart from faith in Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

According to Isaiah an old testament prophet the mystery was there then.
Matthew 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came , and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given .
12 For whosoever hath , to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear , and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing , and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Isaiah 6:9-10
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Why speakest thou unto them in parables? - that is what this is addressing NOT anything to do with the Gentiles . . .

The apostles didn't even understand this: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. . . . What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and you shall you not see me: and again, a little while, and you shall see me: and Because I go to the Father? . . . . . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly and speakest no parable. Sounds like they understood doesn't it? Then why were they so surprised when the tomb was empty?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes it was. (Matthew 13:11) Keep in mind that Jesus taught before the New Testament was in place.
Hebrews 9:15-17
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth .

Paul wasn't part of the original twelve . . . . so what Paul received would have been a revealing of the mystery. And Paul through inspiration of God says he received revelation wherein Jesus made known unto him the mystery which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Now - it was either hidden from other ages and not revealed until the NT epistles addressed to the church, i.e. whereof Paul was made a minister of the dispensation of the grace of God or something's messed up.

Also you are using scripture from Matt. before Jesus was crucified - if the mystery had been revealed at that time then "the princes of this world would not have crucified the Lord of glory" [paraphrased 1 Co. 2:7,8]

Something ain't adding up . . . . . .

 

[just-me]

Why speakest thou unto them in parables? - that is what this is addressing NOT anything to do with the Gentiles . . .

That's right. The Jews received the mystery before the Gentiles.

The apostles didn't even understand this: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. . . . What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and you shall you not see me: and again, a little while, and you shall see me: and Because I go to the Father? . . . . . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly and speakest no parable. Sounds like they understood doesn't it? Then why were they so surprised when the tomb was empty?

They knew long before Paul did. Apostle Paul Profile

"After Christ’s Ascension, Saul was gloriously converted on the road to Damascus" The Apostles knew before Paul's conversion. To the Jew first.

 

[just-me]

Paul wasn't part of the original twelve . . . . so what Paul received would have been a revealing of the mystery. And Paul through inspiration of God says he received revelation wherein Jesus made known unto him the mystery which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Now - it was either hidden from other ages and not revealed until the NT epistles addressed to the church, i.e. whereof Paul was made a minister of the dispensation of the grace of God or something's messed up.

Also you are using scripture from Matt. before Jesus was crucified - if the mystery had been revealed at that time then "the princes of this world would not have crucified the Lord of glory" [paraphrased 1 Co. 2:7,8]

Something ain't adding up . . . . . .

Is there something that you cannot understand about this verse?
Matthew 13:11
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given .

To the Jew first.

 

[just-me]

John 4:15-22 The Samaritan woman at the well
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw .
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go , call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

To the Jew first.

 

[RedTent]

We must understand scripture as it talks of the veil. When the veil was split at the time of the crucifixion it allowed all access to the arc. God dwelled in the arc, the Torah dwelled in the arc, it was part of the temple. Before the Levi High Priest must administer the blood representing Christ that leads to salvation. The Jews were the chosen race and temple worship was in place. At the very moment Christ died for us Christ became the High Priest and all could go directly to where God dwelled, for now God dwelled in the heart. We are to know that scripture speaks of this, and not say it is only speaking to a certain segment of men, it is universal for all of us to know. It is part of the glory of the Lord that Moses saw when Moses encountered God. It is part of the mystery of the Lord, that Christ died for us and it is His blood that is powerful. All scripture about the mystery, all scripture about the veil must be understood with this basic truth in mind. Matt. 27 starting at verse 50 tells us about this, it is the heart of what we must know.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In Luke 4:18-21 when quoting Isaiah: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set a liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.

And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled your ears.

If you go to Isaiah 61:2 this is what it says in it's entirety: To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God . . . He quit at that little comma - with a period - because he had fulfilled - to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. There is a time period between "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God . . . . that time period is the "dispensation of grace".

From the day of Pentecost until the return of Christ everyone who is born again of God's Spirit is a member of the Church of Grace, the Body of Christ. Any Judean or Gentile who confesses Jesus as his Lord and believes that God raised him from the dead becomes a member of that body. The greatest mystery the world has ever known -- the mystery of the Body of Christ, which is the Church was revealed to Paul. This mystery was so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of the world. Judeans and Gentiles would be fellow heirs with Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. When Jesus was here upon earth he could only be at one place at one time BUT NOW Christ is in every born again believer that is why had the Devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus.

I will have to disagree with you.

 

[RedTent]

In Luke 4:18-21 when quoting Isaiah: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set a liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.

And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled your ears.

If you go to Isaiah 61:2 this is what it says in it's entirety: To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God . . . He quit at that little comma - with a period - because he had fulfilled - to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. There is a time period between "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God . . . . that time period is the "dispensation of grace".

From the day of Pentecost until the return of Christ everyone who is born again of God's Spirit is a member of the Church of Grace, the Body of Christ. Any Judean or Gentile who confesses Jesus as his Lord and believes that God raised him from the dead becomes a member of that body. The greatest mystery the world has ever known -- the mystery of the Body of Christ, which is the Church was revealed to Paul. This mystery was so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of the world. Judeans and Gentiles would be fellow heirs with Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. When Jesus was here upon earth he could only be at one place at one time BUT NOW Christ is in every born again believer that is why had the Devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus.

I will have to disagree with you.

You are agreeing with me, you are saying it is in the blood of Christ and so am I. It is just that you are blinding yourself to Christ as He was in the blood for thousands and thousands of years before Christ lived as a man. It is the same blood. It is the same Christ. It is perfected in a certain year as we as humans measure time, but still, in eternal tie Christ is Christ. Read the first verses of John.

 

[just-me]

In Luke 4:18-21 when quoting Isaiah: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set a liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.

And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled your ears.

If you go to Isaiah 61:2 this is what it says in it's entirety: To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God . . . He quit at that little comma - with a period - because he had fulfilled - to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. There is a time period between "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God . . . . that time period is the "dispensation of grace".

From the day of Pentecost until the return of Christ everyone who is born again of God's Spirit is a member of the Church of Grace, the Body of Christ. Any Judean or Gentile who confesses Jesus as his Lord and believes that God raised him from the dead becomes a member of that body. The greatest mystery the world has ever known -- the mystery of the Body of Christ, which is the Church was revealed to Paul. This mystery was so important that it was kept secret since the foundation of the world. Judeans and Gentiles would be fellow heirs with Christ and that Christ would be in every one of them. When Jesus was here upon earth he could only be at one place at one time BUT NOW Christ is in every born again believer that is why had the Devil known this mystery he would never have crucified Jesus.

I will have to disagree with you.

One day you will see. May God bless you with wisdom and understanding.

 

[just-me]

You are agreeing with me, you are saying it is in the blood of Christ and so am I. It is just that you are blinding yourself to Christ as He was in the blood for thousands and thousands of years before Christ lived as a man. It is the same blood. It is the same Christ. It is perfected in a certain year as we as humans measure time, but still, in eternal tie Christ is Christ. Read the first verses of John.

Amen. and I will add that Christ is the creator of all things including principalities. The mystery was from the beginning. Christ elected the Jews to reveal it in His timing which is perfect.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was .

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

One day you will see. May God bless you with wisdom and understanding.

Thanks but there is nothing wrong with my "sight" . . .
kingdom - basileia
1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
A. not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
B. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah;
C. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

heavens - ouranos1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
A. the universe, the world
B. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
C. the sidereal or starry heavens

1. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

The "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" is NOT the same as the mystery of the church revealed to Paul. Is what you are saying contrary to doctrine? Romans and Ephesians are doctrinal epistles directed toward the church . . . both speak about the mystery that was hid and that was revealed to Paul and explain what that mystery is and it is not what you are saying nor was it revealed beforehand.

 

[RedTent]

Thanks but there is nothing wrong with my "sight" . . .
kingdom - basileia
1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
A. not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
B. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah;
C. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

heavens - ouranos1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
A. the universe, the world
B. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
C. the sidereal or starry heavens

1. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

The "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" is NOT the same as the mystery of the church revealed to Paul. Is what you are saying contrary to doctrine? Romans and Ephesians are doctrinal epistles directed toward the church . . . both speak about the mystery that was hid and that was revealed to Paul and explain what that mystery is and it is not what you are saying nor was it revealed beforehand.

When you grow in understanding you will be able to connect all scripture together. You won't be reading the epistles and then going backward from that, but you will be able to do it like Christ the man and Paul did it, you will read the OT and see how the NT evolved from that. Your focus will be on God's overall plan for our salvation and also for our life as we live it here, and all things of scripture, your life, and the world will revolve around the absolute harmony of all of this in scripture. Then you will be able to read Hebrews as the Jews read it, from the vantage point of all the Old testament teaches and seeing what is better in Christ, and how it is better.

Mysteries will not start with Paul, it will start with God.