What do you believe and why do you believe it?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
So is the person with millions of dollars, living in a free country, with perfect health, with fame and fortune, always more happy/secure/less depressed than the person in prison in the most dank, dark stinky corner of the Earth and who is in poor health and gets tortured every day by vulgar the authorities?

I dare say in many cases I have known it is the person in poor health and dark conditions who is happier and more secure than the person in supposedly the better conditions.

That is why I will absolutely not accept your "bedrock assumptions".
This is very bizarre and disturbing. As I've pointed out, people don't have to accept the bedrock assumptions of situational ethics. There is however a consequence for that - that the quality of life on this planet is diminished, either for them or someone else. Like I've maintained, there is an objective optimum wellbeing that could in theory be measured. What you've said doesn't alter that.
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
You have not studied the bible much then..

The creation account, The flood.. Bth are based on predictive capability, because no one was there.. so no one knows for a fact..
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports the Adam and Eve creation story?
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports a Global Flood?
(Here is a clue - you won't be able to find it)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
Name your best example.
The ENTIRE saga of Israel and the Jews exactly foretold. Here is just ONE. Instead of trying to pick it apart, truly think about it:
Isaiah 11:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [a]islands of the sea.


The 1st time God regathered the Jews was after the Babylonian captivity.

Then, for almost 2000 yrs, scoffers said "ha! Where is the promise that God would regather His people like He said!?" When will He regather the SECOND time?

Well, that happened on May 14th 1948. What other nation was completely defunct for 2000 yrs, and re-established in the same land, a land that just happened to be given them by the God you say doesn't exist?
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
Seems to me that 97% of the scientific community has been wrong about some things before . . . :eek:
Like I've said already, you could disprove it with a single discovery. If you find the fossilised remains of a T.Rex in the same geological layer as a neanderthal. So if I were you, I'd start digging...

I much prefer a better foundation than human reasoning - Obviously I have a different starting point - but you also have a starting point . . .
My simple starting points are:

1. I, as a thinking entity, exist

2. The laws of logic are self-attesting truths due to the impossibility of the contrary.

The Christian Presuppositionalist starting point (before anything else can be granted) is a complex set of far-fetched stories, real or allegorical characters and miracle claims.
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
You are mistaken here, Spectrox. Faith is faith. What you term "lots of alternative faiths" is, in reality, various ideologies.

The reason there are so many varying ideologies / beliefs is that one person puts his/her faith in one thing and another person puts his/her faith in another.

The issue is not the faith God has placed within you, me, each person born from time of Adam ... the faith which when not suppressed/restrained brings each person to God.

The issue is in what (or in Whom) do we place our faith? Is our faith rooted in Truth or in something other than Truth?

The more fervently we believe what is false, the worse it is for us. If what we hear is false, then our safety lies in not having faith in the falsehood.

Most members of CC have come to the conclusion that God is and what God has revealed to mankind in Scripture is Truth.

Because you have placed your faith in what you heard from the atheists and ex-christians, you have concluded that Scripture is mythical and God does not exist. Because of this, you are weak in faith.

Others here actually believe God and in hearing the Word of God, they are strong in faith. This strengthening of faith is something God works within the heart of those who do not reject the Truth. If we believe a lie, no strengthening by God; if we reject the truth, no strengthening by God. However, if we believe the truth, God causes increase in our hearts and faith grows strong.



By the way, do you now have a better understanding of the issue concerning the field of blood spoken of in Matt 27 and the field of blood spoken of in Acts 1 ... that there is no contradiction in Scripture concerning the two fields mentioned?
I would not use that example in future to demonstrate a Biblical inconsistency, so you won that particular argument. There are numerous examples of other inconsistencies though
(e.g. Matthew 17 – The journey to Copernium took “6 days.”
Luke 9 – The journey took “about 8 days.”
How difficult is it for God to look after the accuracy of his book?)

But I think there are too many to go through one by one, but thank you for your efforts with the Judas Death story.

In terms of faith, I believe "faith" and "trust" have the same root word "Pistis".
So my point still stands. How do you know you are trusting the correct ideology/conception of God?
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
The ENTIRE saga of Israel and the Jews exactly foretold. Here is just ONE. Instead of trying to pick it apart, truly think about it:
Isaiah 11:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [a]islands of the sea.


The 1st time God regathered the Jews was after the Babylonian captivity.

Then, for almost 2000 yrs, scoffers said "ha! Where is the promise that God would regather His people like He said!?" When will He regather the SECOND time?

Well, that happened on May 14th 1948. What other nation was completely defunct for 2000 yrs, and re-established in the same land, a land that just happened to be given them by the God you say doesn't exist?
A prophecy or prediction has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. Dates and numbers are powerful evidence.

2. It must be precise and unambiguous. Vague and meaningless is not acceptable.

3. It must be improbable. Lucky guesses don't count.

4. It must have been unknown at the time of writing.

The passage from Isaiah does not satisfy all of the criteria. So why don’t Jewish people believe your claim? I suppose from their point of view, the Old Testament itself explains that no other divine being exists before God, so Jesus couldn't be his son; in Isaiah 43:10-13, God himself says there is no saviour and all men must contact him directly. Therefore, from their point of view, there's no need for a saviour, and Jesus was a false prophet.

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
8,978
5,452
113
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports the Adam and Eve creation story?
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports a Global Flood?
(Here is a clue - you won't be able to find it)
Probably a good thing considereng what gets published and how papers get published now a days.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
8,978
5,452
113
This is very bizarre and disturbing. As I've pointed out, people don't have to accept the bedrock assumptions of situational ethics. There is however a consequence for that - that the quality of life on this planet is diminished, either for them or someone else. Like I've maintained, there is an objective optimum wellbeing that could in theory be measured. What you've said doesn't alter that.
Is it objective or subjective?.... while you state "objective" it is in fact subjective.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
A prophecy or prediction has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. Dates and numbers are powerful evidence.

2. It must be precise and unambiguous. Vague and meaningless is not acceptable.

3. It must be improbable. Lucky guesses don't count.

4. It must have been unknown at the time of writing.

The passage from Isaiah does not satisfy all of the criteria. So why don’t Jewish people believe your claim? I suppose from their point of view, the Old Testament itself explains that no other divine being exists before God, so Jesus couldn't be his son; in Isaiah 43:10-13, God himself says there is no saviour and all men must contact him directly. Therefore, from their point of view, there's no need for a saviour, and Jesus was a false prophet.

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”

You outta start a career in moving goalposts! Again, I ask, WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE HERE? If you are not interested in Truth, and just time and again change the rules for what YOU consider proof, I think there is another agenda going on. But surely you MUST know that no born again Child of God can ever be swayed into the religion of atheism. We HAVE the light of the world, Jesus Christ.

Most Jews don't believe in their Messiah today because it is exactly, Biblically predicted that they would be blinded IN PART for a set amount of time.

You want precise dates in Prophecy? Fine. But your heart is hardening more and more as you continue to reject the Truth you asked for.
Here is some of the incredible work Sir Robert Anderson did in identifying the exact day, and ONLY on that day, Jesus would allow Himself to be praised and declared the Messiah. His triumphal entry as the people laid down palm branches, where He said if the people didn't praise Him the VERY stones would cry out. Jesus said at all other occasions "My time has not yet come". ONLY on THIS day did He not only allow, but arranged for Him to be praised.

Sir Robert Anderson spent a lifetime studying God’s Word. He worked with the Royal Observatory in London and gathered his work into a book called The Coming Prince. In this monumental work he records all the historical and Biblical evidences that point to the precision of Daniel’s prophecy. Here are the details for Daniel’s Map of the Future. God gave him three numbers, they were 49 + 434 + 7 = 490 years.

You can check out all the exact details here:https://discoverthebook.org/palm-sunday-and-daniels-70th-week/
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
304
624
93
A prophecy or prediction has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. Dates and numbers are powerful evidence.

2. It must be precise and unambiguous. Vague and meaningless is not acceptable.

3. It must be improbable. Lucky guesses don't count.

4. It must have been unknown at the time of writing.

The passage from Isaiah does not satisfy all of the criteria. So why don’t Jewish people believe your claim? I suppose from their point of view, the Old Testament itself explains that no other divine being exists before God, so Jesus couldn't be his son; in Isaiah 43:10-13, God himself says there is no saviour and all men must contact him directly. Therefore, from their point of view, there's no need for a saviour, and Jesus was a false prophet.

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
You skipped my post, which if you understood would easily explain away your false assumptions here.


isaiah 53


1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portionwith the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
_____________

Inspired hundreds of years before Jesus manifested in the flesh,born of a virgin.
______

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

1694. Emmanouél
Strong's Concordance​
Emmanouél: "God with us," Immanuel, a name of Christ

Original Word: Ἐμμανουήλ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Emmanouél
Phonetic Spelling: (em-man-oo-ale')
Definition: "God with us", Immanuel, a name of Christ

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
8,978
5,452
113
A prophecy or prediction has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. Dates and numbers are powerful evidence.

2. It must be precise and unambiguous. Vague and meaningless is not acceptable.

3. It must be improbable. Lucky guesses don't count.

4. It must have been unknown at the time of writing.

The passage from Isaiah does not satisfy all of the criteria. So why don’t Jewish people believe your claim? I suppose from their point of view, the Old Testament itself explains that no other divine being exists before God, so Jesus couldn't be his son; in Isaiah 43:10-13, God himself says there is no saviour and all men must contact him directly. Therefore, from their point of view, there's no need for a saviour, and Jesus was a false prophet.

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”

And the source of this criteria?
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,672
230
63
It wasn't a sudden exposure to alternative arguments and ideas that eroded my faith. It was a steady drip feed as I interacted with the real world and found large aspects of my faith to be found wanting. It reached a point where i could no longer believe and I had to be honest with myself that I had made a mistake.

Your observation about evolution is incorrect. Evolution is simply species change over long periods of time. What you described is a science called Abiogenesis.

...and you are doing the same trip here with man rather than G-d.

Then you did not read/understand the ...Cambrian Explosion...which proves evolution is a ruse.
Species change is, no doubt, part of G-d's built in adaptation element, knowing man would change the environment. A common sense answer.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,848
564
113
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports the Adam and Eve creation story?
Where is the peer-reviewed science that supports a Global Flood?
(Here is a clue - you won't be able to find it)
Where is the peer-reviewed science that proves the Big Bang theory?
Where is the peer-reviewed human reasoning that proves all the intellectual theories which are your starting points?
(Here is a clue - you won't be able to find it: because in your own words you admit science is not conclusive proof of anything)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,848
564
113
Like I've said already, you could disprove it with a single discovery. If you find the fossilised remains of a T.Rex in the same geological layer as a neanderthal. So if I were you, I'd start digging...



My simple starting points are:

1. I, as a thinking entity, exist

2. The laws of logic are self-attesting truths due to the impossibility of the contrary.

The Christian Presuppositionalist starting point (before anything else can be granted) is a complex set of far-fetched stories, real or allegorical characters and miracle claims.
Hmmm -- seems you are using your starting point ("thinking entity" and "logic") to try to make my starting point look foolish?

Again, you may do that -- that is your prerogative . . . but it does not prove anything at all . . .

I, as I said before, reject your starting point as having no basis at all - thinking and logic did not suddenly appear out of nowhere as a "starting point"!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,848
564
113
This is very bizarre and disturbing. As I've pointed out, people don't have to accept the bedrock assumptions of situational ethics. There is however a consequence for that - that the quality of life on this planet is diminished, either for them or someone else. Like I've maintained, there is an objective optimum wellbeing that could in theory be measured. What you've said doesn't alter that.
How do you measure "quality of life"? By your standards derived from human reason and science? You try to point to the results of my starting points and show that my beliefs lead to bad results - but all you are constantly using are vague terms defined by your definitions (which I reject as having no basis)

You may follow your philosophy of life - that is your right - but it is making this world a place of greed, immorality, sexual deviations of all kinds, and all other kinds of evil (that of course is my opinion!:)) My definitions of immorality and evil have a basis in the eternal God and in His Word (which you seem to reject). This world is going to get worse, not better . . . . BUT - that will not be the end of the story - read the book of Revelation for the ending of the story . . . :D:eek:
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,672
230
63
Folks, until Spectrox responds to the challenge of considering the Cambrian Explosion study....it is significant to his positions... I submit a game is being hoaxed upon this forum. Notice he has yet to acknowledge it even exists.

Act as such.

No further comment.