What do you believe and why do you believe it?

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Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
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General Comment: Just realised a really important aspect of science that I have omitted in my postings. It has predictive capability. The Bible does not.
Predictive ability in the Bible is known as prophecy. Hundreds of prophecies were fulfilled pointing to Jesus Christ.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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We should communicate with people honestly and try to understand if they are happy or whether they could be more happy being or doing something else. According to the New Testament, a slave is "more blessed" if their master treats them badly. I find this perverse.
So is the person with millions of dollars, living in a free country, with perfect health, with fame and fortune, always more happy/secure/less depressed than the person in prison in the most dank, dark stinky corner of the Earth and who is in poor health and gets tortured every day by vulgar the authorities?

I dare say in many cases I have known it is the person in poor health and dark conditions who is happier and more secure than the person in supposedly the better conditions.

That is why I will absolutely not accept your "bedrock assumptions".
 
Mar 14, 2011
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General Comment: Just realised a really important aspect of science that I have omitted in my postings. It has predictive capability. The Bible does not.
You have not studied the bible much then..

The creation account, The flood.. Bth are based on predictive capability, because no one was there.. so no one knows for a fact..
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Wow. Physical and emotional health is not preferable to physical or mental disease? That tells me everything I need to know about your position. How do you explain that one to your teenagers? The sad fact is that the dominant thinking of the last 2000 years, Christianity, has been inconsistent about improving human welfare. Which is why humanism has done more to reduce human misery in the last 100 years than Christianity has done in 2000. Of course there are Christian Charities who try to alleviate human suffering but that seems to contradict what you just said. Do you want to help people practically or not?
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The key to true, deep, emotional health has little to do with physical circumstances. (My view of course) Of course, physical circumstances enter into the equation, but they are by far not the major determining factor.

I am sad that "Christianity" has done so much harm and evil in our world today. I cannot take responsibilty for "Christian" regimes, dictators, or exploiters who have killed, tortured, etc, many in the name of "Christianity". While I do not take responsibility, I care deeply about the pain the turmoil caused by these.

And while I appreciate and indeed support Christian charities who minister to the physical needs of people, this is not the measuring stick of "human welfare" (not mine, at least).

What is "improving human welfare"? To you it seems to be alleviating sickness, pain, and changing external circumstances which are supposed to give better emotional health.

As I said elsewhere, I reject your "bedrock assumptions", and so of course we are going to go different directions with our reasoning.

Do I want to help people "practically"? I want to help people really! ;)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I don't think you really understand the scientific method, which I'm not blaming you for. However, the evidence for how powerful the scientific method is, is all around us.
Do you use IT technology such as a computer or mobile phone (I'm guessing yes!)?
Do you wear clothes made from synthetic fibres?
Do you take medicines or have you ever had surgery?
Have you flown in an aircraft?
Have you had an X-ray or ultrasound scan?
Do you use batteries?
Do you drive a car?
Do you watch the television?

To take advantage of any of these things and then dismiss science is the ultimate hypocrisy.
I actually understand the scientific method quite well, thank you . . . !
Did the scientific method create all the "stuff" of what you are talking about?

car - where did all that metal come from?
aircraft - where did all the parts/elements come from?
medicines - came from plants, eh?
clothes - came from where?

Your line is all these things came from some sort of big bang? (or maybe you have another story?)
- if it was a big bang - where did all the stuff that went into the bang come from?

Where is my starting point? - "In the beginning God . . ."
Where did God come from? He always was and has been! Am I biased? Call me that if you want - argue your scientific method till you are blue in the face, but eventually you will die (as all mortals do). And when you die, you will not just cease to exist, but you will meet me Redeemer and my God and my Friend face to face! He is loving, kind, and compassionate - and He loves you! He Himself came as a mortal and died! He desires to have you with Him as a friend for all eternity! Will you accept His invitation?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I accept that in the spirit it is given. I think your intentions are good but we see life differently. Your world view starts with an assumption or presupposition that the Bible is true. Mine is a default starting position that the null hypothesis is correct, i.e.
that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena until demonstrated otherwise. This avoids contradictions between competing claims, e.g. Christianity versus Islam. They are both not accepted unless demonstrated to be otherwise.
Well - put -- You are right in that my world view starts with the Bible and God. All of my life revolves around that presupposition.

You say yours starts with a "default starting point" -- the null hypothesis - Where did this "null hypothesis" come from? from "human reasoning"? How can you have a default starting point that comes from something else? One must always go back to the source. As I have said elsewhere I do not accept human reasoning or the scientific method as the basis of reality. Hence I do not accept your starting point as the default.

Just be honest and say your starting position is that the null hypothesis is correct. I am OK if you start there: you have every right to do that if you want.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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This is demonstrably not true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution
It states "Nearly all (around 97%) of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity."
There are footnotes at the bottom which provide further links to peer-reviewed articles from scientists who have actually done the hard work to put the information together. It's very easy to dismiss other people's hard work with a few casual sentences. Much more difficult to piece together the self-supporting evidence.
Seems to me that 97% of the scientific community has been wrong about some things before . . . :eek:

I much prefer a better foundation than human reasoning - Obviously I have a different starting point - but you also have a starting point . . .
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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You have not studied the bible much then..

The creation account, The flood.. Bth are based on predictive capability, because no one was there.. so no one knows for a fact..
isaiah 53


1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portionwith the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
_____________

Inspired hundreds of years before Jesus manifested in the flesh,born of a virgin.
______

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

1694. Emmanouél
Strong's Concordance
Emmanouél: "God with us," Immanuel, a name of Christ​
Original Word: Ἐμμανουήλ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Emmanouél
Phonetic Spelling: (em-man-oo-ale')
Definition: "God with us", Immanuel, a name of Christ
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Merced, CA
The Wisdom of God
18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”
20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. 22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.

24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.

26 Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world’s eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you. 27 Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. 28 God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. 29 As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God.

30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin. 31 Therefore, as the Scriptures say, “If you want to boast, boast only about the Lord.”
-1 Corinthians 1
 
Mar 23, 2016
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There are lots of alternative faiths out there.
You are mistaken here, Spectrox. Faith is faith. What you term "lots of alternative faiths" is, in reality, various ideologies.

The reason there are so many varying ideologies / beliefs is that one person puts his/her faith in one thing and another person puts his/her faith in another.

The issue is not the faith God has placed within you, me, each person born from time of Adam ... the faith which when not suppressed/restrained brings each person to God.

The issue is in what (or in Whom) do we place our faith? Is our faith rooted in Truth or in something other than Truth?

The more fervently we believe what is false, the worse it is for us. If what we hear is false, then our safety lies in not having faith in the falsehood.

Most members of CC have come to the conclusion that God is and what God has revealed to mankind in Scripture is Truth.

Because you have placed your faith in what you heard from the atheists and ex-christians, you have concluded that Scripture is mythical and God does not exist. Because of this, you are weak in faith.

Others here actually believe God and in hearing the Word of God, they are strong in faith. This strengthening of faith is something God works within the heart of those who do not reject the Truth. If we believe a lie, no strengthening by God; if we reject the truth, no strengthening by God. However, if we believe the truth, God causes increase in our hearts and faith grows strong.



By the way, do you now have a better understanding of the issue concerning the field of blood spoken of in Matt 27 and the field of blood spoken of in Acts 1 ... that there is no contradiction in Scripture concerning the two fields mentioned?


 
Mar 23, 2016
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Chester said:
You clearly say here that science does not "conclusively prove anything" - Exactly! I am glad you admit that!

How did you come up with this "accepted theory"? Does majority mean it is an "accepted theory"? Or does it take 90%? or 99%? However you decide it - you have no way of knowing if it is true or not?

So why should I try to disprove something that I do not know is true or not? And how can I disprove it with more methods that I have no way of knowing if they are true or not?

You may use science, instinct, reason, etc. to come up with what is "truth" - but you have no way to know if you are right or wrong! You do not have to accept the Bible and God as true, but don't think you can prove some moral goodness or truth if you have no foundation to start with!

I admit my basis as a bias - I choose to believe in God as supreme truth.
To paraphrase Bertrand Russell, the main problem with this world is that intelligent, thoughtful people are full of doubt whereas the willfully ignorant are cocksure.
In your Post #340, you appear to infer that Chester is "willfully ignorant" and you are the "intelligent thoughtful" person because Chester chooses to believe in God as supreme truth. In so doing, you remain "willfully ignorant" in your "cocksure" belief that Chester is being hoodwinked by a myth.



 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
353
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Merced, CA
In your Post #340, you appear to infer that Chester is "willfully ignorant" and you are the "intelligent thoughtful" person because Chester chooses to believe in God as supreme truth. In so doing, you remain "willfully ignorant" in your "cocksure" belief that Chester is being hoodwinked by a myth.
Being willfully ignorant according to Russell Bertrand is the least of his worries. He should acknowledge what the bible says of him..
 

billymorgan

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2010
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I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?
I not only believe and have faith but I am a living witness I have seen with my own eyes the spirits of lord
 

billymorgan

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2010
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my friends, I am here today to tell you about a great miracle the Lord has blessed me and has chosen me to see great wonders and miracles. I am a living witness with my own eyes I have seen the spirits of the lord and I stood before them and seen the sky open up and the church of god coming down .it's true god is real and his spirits are among us rejoice this is the good news.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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What sudden exposure did you have to cause a distraction from your G-d believing era?

It is human nature to believe in and ally with something of a spiritual nature. Usually evolution is among the most popular alternative attractions from G-d. Check that by studying the .......Cambrian explosion. That will remove all association with evolution and has served to answer many scientific questions about origins .

I recommend much prayer. My experience with your dilemma usually surrounds Satan sensing a weak belief system and making it his constant target. That connection must be broken.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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my friends, I am here today to tell you about a great miracle the Lord has blessed me and has chosen me to see great wonders and miracles. I am a living witness with my own eyes I have seen the spirits of the lord and I stood before them and seen the sky open up and the church of god coming down .it's true god is real and his spirits are among us rejoice this is the good news.
my friends, I am here today to tell you about a great miracle the Lord has blessed me and has chosen me to see great wonders and miracles. I am a living witness with my own eyes I have seen the spirits of the lord and I stood before them and seen the sky open up and the church of god coming down .it's true god is real and his spirits are among us rejoice this is the good news.
Ok What does this mean? People have visions everyday. God has been here from the beginning of creation. And amen, you have caught up God bless you
 
Jul 25, 2019
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I have another premise.
Life maybe more about do the seeds of love take root and grow to produce the result the sower desires,
or distractions along the way take hold.

You strike me as someone who has closed the door, I am just wondering why?
I would not want good soil to miss the very life it craves to have, just because of cynicism.
Have you not read any of my responses? A lot of the Bible has nothing to do with love. Much of it is to do with control.
 
Jul 25, 2019
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What sudden exposure did you have to cause a distraction from your G-d believing era?

It is human nature to believe in and ally with something of a spiritual nature. Usually evolution is among the most popular alternative attractions from G-d. Check that by studying the .......Cambrian explosion. That will remove all association with evolution and has served to answer many scientific questions about origins .

I recommend much prayer. My experience with your dilemma usually surrounds Satan sensing a weak belief system and making it his constant target. That connection must be broken.
It wasn't a sudden exposure to alternative arguments and ideas that eroded my faith. It was a steady drip feed as I interacted with the real world and found large aspects of my faith to be found wanting. It reached a point where i could no longer believe and I had to be honest with myself that I had made a mistake.

Your observation about evolution is incorrect. Evolution is simply species change over long periods of time. What you described is a science called Abiogenesis.
 
Jul 25, 2019
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The problem of residing in ones own doubt.
The universe is 100% hostile. The only slightly neutral place is our planet.
Our planet has some very odd coincidences. These are so odd and so specific without which life could not exist,
you have to say 99% they allowed life to exist. At what point do these have to exist before one admits this is
a created world, a construction and not just interaction between forces?

Imagine equally God exists but we hate Him. Why would we want to acknowledge anything about creation?
On the other hand if God was like our hearts, just on hearing His name and principles would our hearts warm
to Him? And that for me is the true nature of existence.

Existence is not about acknowledging the truth, but about discovering the creator because we want to.
I found at a young age, after much thought, I wanted something else as an alternative to Jesus, who seemed
singularly restrictive and boring. The difficulty I had, there appears nothing else, literally. And then I discovered
my very heart which I trusted as being ok, would quite happily betray me and send me off on any track as long
as everything stayed safe and as was, so truth and reality were quite happy to be sacrificed on the altar of stability.

As I have grown in Christ, each step has been the same. Another step on, while in the past it seemed so vast
and impossible, yet over time, my life time, each step has been one step further on into glory.

Why should I imagine that which seems so solid, matter but is 99% nothing is more reliable than God and His
word that speaks to every area of my existence and brings me life? I cannot so I bow in praise and worship
to my King, Amen.
Correction : The Universe is 99.99999999% hostile. The purpose of which seems to be about making Black Holes.

Existence is not about acknowledging the truth? Wow! I think this is a serious flaw in thinking. Look, I like some of what you've written, but it does not persuade. Sorry. I wish you well and hope you find your heaven.