What do you believe and why do you believe it?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
Well you sound pretty cocksure... does that prove or disprove this so called Bertrand Russell whoever hes supposed to be...
I'm not actually. I have lots of doubts. Probably too many. I try to be a bit more assertive on the internet because it helps to get to the truth.
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
General Comment: Just realised a really important aspect of science that I have omitted in my postings. It has predictive capability. The Bible does not.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
I may not have given the answer that you find acceptable but I think I'm less close-minded than anyone on this site so far. I care about what's true. I try to have as many true beliefs as possible and as few false beliefs as possible.
DNA is a molecule that mutates over many generations. Ignoring all the details, such as natural selection, this is the simple answer to how it became as complex as it is today.
If DNA is too complicated to arise naturally, then how did something complicated enough to design DNA arise? I agree that much of the complexity of the natural world gives the appearance of design but it may not have been designed. Look at completely redundant vestigial features in some animals, e.g. blind cave fish or the laryngial nerve of a giraffe.
Even if we determined that all life had indeed been designed, how do you get from there to your particular God? The Bible contains no scientific predictions.

You drank poison you say and lived to tell the tale? Wow. What poison was it? How much did you drink?
You are obscuring the point. I understand your need to do this. The code is digital and packed with more info than the library of Congress.

WHERE DID THE INFORMATION COME FROM? And the point that DNA mutates or degrades doesn't change that it is digital. MUTATIONS almost universally result in degradation not improvement. In fact, the mutation VERIFIES Scripture, in that it validates the fall of man and by extension the Creation.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
I may not have given the answer that you find acceptable but I think I'm less close-minded than anyone on this site so far. I care about what's true. I try to have as many true beliefs as possible and as few false beliefs as possible.
DNA is a molecule that mutates over many generations. Ignoring all the details, such as natural selection, this is the simple answer to how it became as complex as it is today.
If DNA is too complicated to arise naturally, then how did something complicated enough to design DNA arise? I agree that much of the complexity of the natural world gives the appearance of design but it may not have been designed. Look at completely redundant vestigial features in some animals, e.g. blind cave fish or the laryngial nerve of a giraffe.
Even if we determined that all life had indeed been designed, how do you get from there to your particular God? The Bible contains no scientific predictions.

You drank poison you say and lived to tell the tale? Wow. What poison was it? How much did you drink?

Here is Post 311:
I have related this story before, but it may be worth telling again.

As long as I can remember I have believed Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead. Whether at this particular point I was "born again" I do not know. But it is irrelevant from the Lord's viewpoint, as He is outside of time.

It was during my heavy party days as a late teen/early 20s. I was in full, feed my flesh mode. We use to have a brown Ice tea container, that my mom periodically cleaned by letting clorox bleach sit in for a while to disinfect. I'm sure it was diluted, but I found out afterward that it was still a very strong, likely fatal mixture. You couldn't tell what color the liquid was because it all looked brown.

Anyway, after a long night of drinking, I woke up with a terrible thirst. I went into the kitchen and saw the Ice tea container on the counter. Without even thinking, I guzzled a pretty big amount, right out of the container, (I know, what a slob!) before it hit my brain that it wasn't ice tea!

All in a second, I thought, "this is it! I'm going to die". The wind knocked out of my lungs and a couple seconds later I took a huge gasp of breath. After that, it was as if I had never swallowed anything evil. Didn't even throw up, and felt fine.
Does that qualify?

I don't believe Christians should go around putting the Lord to the test by purposefully drinking poison, or handling snakes etc... But if those things DO happen, HE will protect us. The snake bit Paul. He wasn't trying to find a snake to bite him to show everyone that he could get bit by a poisonous snake and survive.


Will you now please believe?
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
Slavery is not a bad thing, it is enforced servitude and resolves famine rescue and genocide in war.
The reason slavery was abolished is because working on plantations could be done with hired labour,
and slaves were dealt with as if it did not matter if they lived or died. Often torture and beating were
used which was inhuman way of treating other individuals.

Once society was wealthy enough to employ people, and wars were fought with professional armies,
while civilians were not part of the battles, then conflicts could be resolved through political means
rather than slavery and murder.

Interestingly Stalin, Hitler, Mao still used these techniques for domination. So the source of this approach
is not God but man.
Slavery is not a bad thing? Seriously. Just read Exodus 21 to see how badly slaves could be treated, and fully supported by the God of the Bible. It is possible to have fairly good secular humanist societies like the ones in Scandinavia. Fairly low crime and social ills. Benign government who are servants of the people who try their best to prevent and sort out problems so that citizens can thrive and flourish. Atheists aren't all like Pol Pot and Stalin.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,187
113
I may not have given the answer that you find acceptable but I think I'm less close-minded than anyone on this site so far. I care about what's true. I try to have as many true beliefs as possible and as few false beliefs as possible.
DNA is a molecule that mutates over many generations. Ignoring all the details, such as natural selection, this is the simple answer to how it became as complex as it is today.
If DNA is too complicated to arise naturally, then how did something complicated enough to design DNA arise? I agree that much of the complexity of the natural world gives the appearance of design but it may not have been designed. Look at completely redundant vestigial features in some animals, e.g. blind cave fish or the laryngial nerve of a giraffe.
Even if we determined that all life had indeed been designed, how do you get from there to your particular God? The Bible contains no scientific predictions.

You drank poison you say and lived to tell the tale? Wow. What poison was it? How much did you drink?
The problem of residing in ones own doubt.
The universe is 100% hostile. The only slightly neutral place is our planet.
Our planet has some very odd coincidences. These are so odd and so specific without which life could not exist,
you have to say 99% they allowed life to exist. At what point do these have to exist before one admits this is
a created world, a construction and not just interaction between forces?

Imagine equally God exists but we hate Him. Why would we want to acknowledge anything about creation?
On the other hand if God was like our hearts, just on hearing His name and principles would our hearts warm
to Him? And that for me is the true nature of existence.

Existence is not about acknowledging the truth, but about discovering the creator because we want to.
I found at a young age, after much thought, I wanted something else as an alternative to Jesus, who seemed
singularly restrictive and boring. The difficulty I had, there appears nothing else, literally. And then I discovered
my very heart which I trusted as being ok, would quite happily betray me and send me off on any track as long
as everything stayed safe and as was, so truth and reality were quite happy to be sacrificed on the altar of stability.

As I have grown in Christ, each step has been the same. Another step on, while in the past it seemed so vast
and impossible, yet over time, my life time, each step has been one step further on into glory.

Why should I imagine that which seems so solid, matter but is 99% nothing is more reliable than God and His
word that speaks to every area of my existence and brings me life? I cannot so I bow in praise and worship
to my King, Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,187
113
Slavery is not a bad thing? Seriously. Just read Exodus 21 to see how badly slaves could be treated, and fully supported by the God of the Bible. It is possible to have fairly good secular humanist societies like the ones in Scandinavia. Fairly low crime and social ills. Benign government who are servants of the people who try their best to prevent and sort out problems so that citizens can thrive and flourish. Atheists aren't all like Pol Pot and Stalin.
Everything has problems. What you are talking about in terms of Mosaic law is late bronze age early iron age
society where worshiping idols, had temple prostitutes and child sacrifice were common.
Comparing this to our modern, technological, educated, sophisticated societies of today, fed and supported
by oil, gas and coal energy consumption is not a fair comparison. To get here we have taken the moral framework
of Christian faith and applied it to an ideal, almost heavenly human existence.

The problems of disease have been conquered so we can all potentially live to 70+.
Theologically there are real questions as to why this situation took so long to develop, except God introduced
the idea He sows the seeds, we reap the harvest and consequences. Revelations suggests a final conflict between
rebellion against love with a desire for sin and self indulgence and Gods people who walk in His ways.

Maybe how this is fulfilled or actually which model is reality still has to be worked out.
Does love conquer all? Is spiritual blindness as religious as we make it appear?
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
You are obscuring the point. I understand your need to do this. The code is digital and packed with more info than the library of Congress.

WHERE DID THE INFORMATION COME FROM? And the point that DNA mutates or degrades doesn't change that it is digital. MUTATIONS almost universally result in degradation not improvement.
I don't know. I'm not a molecular biologist. Neither are you, I suspect.
I agree that there are lots of improbabilities in life, e.g. DNA coding, the chirality of proteins, the fact that water has it's highest density at 4 degrees centigrade, the Goldie Locks distance of the Earth from the Sun. But then again, this Universe could be the end result of a trillion, trillion Universal attempts that preceded the Big Bang. How can we know? Also, there are 10 to the power 22 stars in the observable Universe. That's a pretty big number. But even if it is proved to be vanishingly unlikley that natural forces could have created life as we know it, this gets you no closer to proving that your particular God is true. The Bible has zero explanatory power in this regard.

If you accept science "knowledge" like DNA sequencing, do you accept that science is in conflict with the creation account in the Book of Genesis. Do you agree that science does not accept that miracles occur?

In fact, the mutation VERIFIES Scripture, in that it validates the fall of man and by extension the Creation.
It does nothing of the sort as explained above. Why doesn't God heal amputees? That would be a good demonstration of his power.
 
Jul 25, 2019
235
16
18
Here is Post 311:
I have related this story before, but it may be worth telling again.

As long as I can remember I have believed Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead. Whether at this particular point I was "born again" I do not know. But it is irrelevant from the Lord's viewpoint, as He is outside of time.

It was during my heavy party days as a late teen/early 20s. I was in full, feed my flesh mode. We use to have a brown Ice tea container, that my mom periodically cleaned by letting clorox bleach sit in for a while to disinfect. I'm sure it was diluted, but I found out afterward that it was still a very strong, likely fatal mixture. You couldn't tell what color the liquid was because it all looked brown.

Anyway, after a long night of drinking, I woke up with a terrible thirst. I went into the kitchen and saw the Ice tea container on the counter. Without even thinking, I guzzled a pretty big amount, right out of the container, (I know, what a slob!) before it hit my brain that it wasn't ice tea!

All in a second, I thought, "this is it! I'm going to die". The wind knocked out of my lungs and a couple seconds later I took a huge gasp of breath. After that, it was as if I had never swallowed anything evil. Didn't even throw up, and felt fine.
Does that qualify?

I don't believe Christians should go around putting the Lord to the test by purposefully drinking poison, or handling snakes etc... But if those things DO happen, HE will protect us. The snake bit Paul. He wasn't trying to find a snake to bite him to show everyone that he could get bit by a poisonous snake and survive.


Will you now please believe?
I'm glad you survived. It's sounds like a horrible experience. But what does it really prove? It was LIKELY fatal but not confirmed to be so. How do you know that your God was protecting you throughout this and not something else? How do you know that it really was a fatal mixture? Was it tested in any way? Anecdotal evidence is quite bad at getting to the truth.

I understand that your intention is good and that you are trying to help me spiritually. But your presupposition will inevitably cloud your perception of events. Then there's confirmation bias to consider. This idea of faith just seems to be a really ineffective and arbitrary soul filter.

Also, I believe that recently a Christian did allow a poisonous snake to bite him in a ritual and he died as a result. I will try to find the report on it.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
621
93
Now we get the "Christianity is not a religion" special-pleading canard.

From a dictionary:

RELIGION
noun

  1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
    synonyms:faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More
    • a particular system of faith and worship.
      plural noun: religions
      "the world's great religions"
Don’t be snarky, sweetie. I couldn’t care less whether you have salvation or not. I’m just telling you that Jesus came not to give us religion, but to restore our relationship with our Creator. It’s about relationship, not religion.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
621
93
Do you consider Catholics to be Christians? Are they saved?
I consider them misguided children due to the fact that most Catholics place higher emphasis on Mary, the pope, the church itself, and their good works than they place on Jesus.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,187
113
Here is Post 311:
I have related this story before, but it may be worth telling again.

As long as I can remember I have believed Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead. Whether at this particular point I was "born again" I do not know. But it is irrelevant from the Lord's viewpoint, as He is outside of time.

It was during my heavy party days as a late teen/early 20s. I was in full, feed my flesh mode. We use to have a brown Ice tea container, that my mom periodically cleaned by letting clorox bleach sit in for a while to disinfect. I'm sure it was diluted, but I found out afterward that it was still a very strong, likely fatal mixture. You couldn't tell what color the liquid was because it all looked brown.

Anyway, after a long night of drinking, I woke up with a terrible thirst. I went into the kitchen and saw the Ice tea container on the counter. Without even thinking, I guzzled a pretty big amount, right out of the container, (I know, what a slob!) before it hit my brain that it wasn't ice tea!

All in a second, I thought, "this is it! I'm going to die". The wind knocked out of my lungs and a couple seconds later I took a huge gasp of breath. After that, it was as if I had never swallowed anything evil. Didn't even throw up, and felt fine.
Does that qualify?

I don't believe Christians should go around putting the Lord to the test by purposefully drinking poison, or handling snakes etc... But if those things DO happen, HE will protect us. The snake bit Paul. He wasn't trying to find a snake to bite him to show everyone that he could get bit by a poisonous snake and survive.

Will you now please believe?
Summary - I might have drunk bleach, a lot of bleach or just water, and survived, its a miracle.

Now to any critical thinker, cause and effect. You drank something, it had no effect, it was not what you
thought it was. So many times people do one thing, then another and forget the other.
So put bleach in leave it. Go back to rinse it out, fill with water, pour away, fill with water, get distracted
and forget it is not emptied of water. Son comes in swallows the lot, believes is going to die.

No a miracle, they are alive. Now please, change your whole world view and come to faith because I
drunk a flask full of water.

To even seriously put this forward as a reason for faith, is just nuts, literally nuts.
I feel ashamed. But then some believe in angel feathers, gold dust, wealth God invented out of thin air.

If I followed Christ because of these testimonies I would soon be an atheist, it is so much more honest.
Christ stands because of changed hearts not miracles, miracles speak to authority nothing more.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
304
624
93
General Comment: Just realised a really important aspect of science that I have omitted in my postings. It has predictive capability. The Bible does not.

Oh boy, I sure hope you accept the truth before you learn how wrong you are the hard way....


The bible is filled with prophecy, some already fulfilled and more which will come to pass.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
I don't know. I'm not a molecular biologist. Neither are you, I suspect.
I agree that there are lots of improbabilities in life, e.g. DNA coding, the chirality of proteins, the fact that water has it's highest density at 4 degrees centigrade, the Goldie Locks distance of the Earth from the Sun. But then again, this Universe could be the end result of a trillion, trillion Universal attempts that preceded the Big Bang. How can we know? Also, there are 10 to the power 22 stars in the observable Universe. That's a pretty big number. But even if it is proved to be vanishingly unlikley that natural forces could have created life as we know it, this gets you no closer to proving that your particular God is true. The Bible has zero explanatory power in this regard.

If you accept science "knowledge" like DNA sequencing, do you accept that science is in conflict with the creation account in the Book of Genesis. Do you agree that science does not accept that miracles occur?



It does nothing of the sort as explained above. Why doesn't God heal amputees? That would be a good demonstration of his power.
God doesn't need to demonstrate His Power. Look above at what you wrote. The answer is literally staring you in the face.

YOU KNOW THERE IS A GOD! If you fail to accept Him you can be certain to see the words you wrote again, as He says " You saw the impossibility of everything coming from nothing, you knew from nature everything HAD to be designed, and yet you still rejected the Truth".

WE..... Are NOT uncertain! Stop looking for reasons to NOT believe.
It's like the movie you watch and certain people KNOW the truth, yet others don't believe they KNOW the truth, and you scream at the set, "Why can't you see the truth!".
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,187
113
Now we get the "Christianity is not a religion" special-pleading canard.

From a dictionary:

RELIGION
noun

  1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
    synonyms:faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; More

    • a particular system of faith and worship.
      plural noun: religions
      "the world's great religions"
Hi Spectrox,

It annoys me tremendously is christians arguing they are not religious, when what they mean is they
have a relationship reality with God which people who just follow ceremonies do not.
What they do not understand is faith and belief are not that simple to separate and if you go to any
church and change anything, the level of opposition suggests relationship is not so clear cut in these
faith groups and they are literally a religious group after all, claiming just another reason to be
superior to that group down the road. lol.

I do laugh because working with our limitations and loving all is part of our walk and part of knowing
the truth, God bless you
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,972
3,067
113
I'm glad you survived. It's sounds like a horrible experience. But what does it really prove? It was LIKELY fatal but not confirmed to be so. How do you know that your God was protecting you throughout this and not something else? How do you know that it really was a fatal mixture? Was it tested in any way? Anecdotal evidence is quite bad at getting to the truth.

I understand that your intention is good and that you are trying to help me spiritually. But your presupposition will inevitably cloud your perception of events. Then there's confirmation bias to consider. This idea of faith just seems to be a really ineffective and arbitrary soul filter.

Also, I believe that recently a Christian did allow a poisonous snake to bite him in a ritual and he died as a result. I will try to find the report on it.
Again. You keep moving the goalposts. You asked if I did any of the things talked about in Mark. I told you I did. You STILL don't believe.

Maybe if someone came back from the dead you would believe.... Oh Wait! ... Someone did! And over 500 people saw Him. But something tells me that's still not good enough for you.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,187
113
General Comment: Just realised a really important aspect of science that I have omitted in my postings. It has predictive capability. The Bible does not.
Interesting. You are right to a degree. The scientific method is to propose a law or rule, which can be
tested in a repeatable experiment with outcomes which will confirm or deny the proposition.
For it to be scientific it must be capable of disproving the proposition.

God declared about blessing or judgement linked to behaviour. Predictions are made in social behaviour
which results in love or anger and violence. Certain groups are told they will hate you, and others they will
love you. Certain trials and difficulties will occur but stay strong and the end will be reached.

Now these are repeatable experiments and the results predictable.
So predictable are the moral outcomes, humanists have adopted them and removed the elements of faith.
So I have to support the idea, the bible is 100% predictive, especially about my life and how it will go.

God bless you
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,540
890
113
But faith in what and for what reason? There are lots of alternative faiths out there. How do you determine which, if any, is more likely to be correct?
Scripture speaks of one faith. The faith of Christ. The work of the faith of God .

The faith that comes from hearing God as it is written is the correct one. Adding to it or taking from it destroys the integrity of sola scriptura. (All things written in the law and the prophets ).God's two witnesses
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,540
890
113
Spectrox said: I'm glad you survived. It's sounds like a horrible experience. But what does it really prove? It was LIKELY fatal but not confirmed to be so. How do you know that your God was protecting you throughout this and not something else? How do you know that it really was a fatal mixture? Was it tested in any way? Anecdotal evidence is quite bad at getting to the truth.

I understand that your intention is good and that you are trying to help me spiritually. But your presupposition will inevitably cloud your perception of events. Then there's confirmation bias to consider. This idea of faith just seems to be a really ineffective and arbitrary soul filter.

Also, I believe that recently a Christian did allow a poisonous snake to bite him in a ritual and he died as a result. I will try to find the report on it.
The parable involving the use of poison from serpents (metaphor) as to its hidden understanding must be searched out. The literal understanding is for those who know not Christ. Poison represents false doctrine. Believers that walk by faith the unseen eternal understanding will not be deceived by false doctrine.

There simply is no outward sign we could perform . No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm something. We have the witness of the Holy Spirit in us he does all the confirming . Learn what it means to walk by faith not after the imaginations of one heart like those who drink poison and die.


Keep studying and asking questions to show one self approved unto God. You are getting closer...