What does God want in Christian churches?

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Oct 24, 2018
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#61
Well, not sure if you wrote the last part or not. If not, your source is utterly confused. Classical Greek (as above!) was BEFORE Koine Greek. Therefore, it does NOT come from a "late Greek word" but an earlier Greek word.

Which makes no sense at all, either way. Ekklesia is in the Bible. It does literally mean "called or elected ones," in the early church. And the romance languages seem to get it a bit closer - l'Eglises in French, for example. Which, by the way, translates directly into English as "church."

But, the Germanic languages were probably just try to capture the flavour of the "K" sound, with Kirche. Germans tend not to put "E" before nouns, (except for ein!). And, German is much more related to Greek than western, Latin based languages. When I took advanced German last year, I was delighted to find the grammar was virtually identical to Greek, in many ways. In fact, it helped my German to know Greek. But the explanations in German, also helped my Greek. I have not had a chance to check vocabulary origins, but certainly the noun and adjectival cases, the verbs, and the word order mirror Greek. It has been a pleasure reading the Bible in German, too! It is so similar to Greek!

My suggestion is to not copy and paste from sources that are iffy. In fact, until you can actually speak some Romance Languages, German and read Greek, probably best not to pontificate about things you know nothing about!

***The source is from a cult that is run like an army and many have to sleep on the floor. It was in California and I visited it there with my family, then they moved to Oregon, and then to New Mexico. I tried the e-mail address and it said the mailbox was full. One of my friends in Seattle said that a man who led a street preaching ministry she was part of quit and went to them in New Mexico and she has not heard from him for about two years. Did you go to the website? The contact page is what informed me.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#62
This excerpt is from the article I already linked,
Christ's Ekklesia and The Church Compared

By:Richard Anthony


The Origin of the word Church
(SIC)....."We see from this Greek Lexicon that no one really knows how church got into the languages of the world to be used as a replacement for the Christ's ekklesia.

Church: "Derived from the Middle English word chirch/kirke, which is derived from the Old English word cirice (and the Old Norse kirkja), which is derived from the Germanic kirika, which is derived from the Classical Greek kyriake (oikia) which means "lord's house," and kyriakos which means "belonging to the lord," and kyrioswhich means "ruler," and kyros which means "supreme power," and all these words are derived from the Indo European base keu which means "a swelling, to be strong, hero," whence is derived "cave." 1. A building set apart or consecrated for public worship." Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 251.​
Church: "The etymology of this word is generally assumed to be from the Greek, Kuriou oikos (house of God); but this is most improbable, as the word existed in all the Celtic dialects long before the introduction of Greek. No doubt the word means "a circle." The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular. (Welsh, cyrch, French, cirque; Scotch, kirk; Greek, kirk-os, etc.) Compare Anglo-Saxon circe, a church, with circol, a circle." The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, E. Cobham Brewer, 1894.
Church: "Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship. In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning." Easton's Bible Dictionary.​
The courts have ruled that "The word 'church' is used interchangeably to designate a society of persons who profess the Christian religion and the place where such personsregularly assemble for worship."
The word in Latin for ekklesia is also ekklesia, so even the Latin retained this word. When we know what the word ekklesia means, how can we take something unclean, such as "The Church," and make it clean (Job 14:4)? We can't.
So, most bible translators have interpreted the Greek word ekklesia as Church, but ekklesia has nothing to do with the word Church! Every word study and reference available all agree that the word Church does not come from the original Koine Greek word ekklesia, but comes from a late Greek word, which has a totally different meaning! So we must ask ourselves this question: "Why do bibles falsely use the word church in place of the Christ's ekklesia?"


Churches are Businesses-Article Continues at this header link "


***The source is from a cult that is run like an army and many have to sleep on the floor. It was in California and I visited it there with my family, then they moved to Oregon, and then to New Mexico. I tried the e-mail address and it said the mailbox was full. One of my friends in Seattle said that a man who led a street preaching ministry she was part of quit and went to them in New Mexico and she has not heard from him for about two years. Did you go to the website? The contact page is what informed me.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#63
My suggestion is to refrain from throwing condescending remarks when you first enter into them by admitting you're not able to discern what is clearly designated as copy and paste from original thoughts written by a member. In relation to your target of contention, me. To later try to advise I shouldn't "pontificate" about things I know nothing about makes your attempt at berating me a joke on you. It also makes you presumptuous in your zeal to attack thinking I did not garner the article(s) I share on this forum from my own personal library of saves. And after careful consideration of the research and sources contained therein.

Your failed tactics also demonstrate per your scope of implied critical thought that you're shall we say not one that actually knows what they claim to know about Greek language.
For members consideration. The second excerpted text below this one fully revokes Angela's claim about Koine Greek as she intended to berate the information in the link I shared that compared Ekklesia and church language origins.


What Was Koine Greek?
Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins
Question:
Was Koine Greek just a dialect of Classical Greek, or was Classical Greek already dead?



I have heard that the Koine Greek was the perfect language for the New Testament, because at the time of the N. T. writings, Koine was "static" and precise in its vocabulary and structures, with no exact synonyms, but did have some close synonyms that had distinct nuances in meaning, and could therefore be distinguished; it was considered "static" (I don't remember if that is the exact term) because, not long after that, it died as a spoken language, so its meanings were "sure" (?) (the form that was spoken after that was considered "pre-modern Greek" (not the term they used, I'm sure).

Answer:
"K
oine" (Greek for "common") is a term that came to designate that broad, common form of mostly non-literary Greek used by Greeks in common speech among themselves and with other ethnicities, and used by various ethnicities in their communication with other ethnicities. I find it commonly used as a technical term for a period in history roughly designating the 1st century BCE and CE (BC and AD). But it covers the early centuries of Christian development.

"Classical" Greek is a designation given to the writings of a particular period in the history of early Greek literature, including writing by Plato and other philosophers. "Classical" Greek also consisted of a variety of forms, that we could call dialects, with differences noted between the writings from different cities and regions.

Classical Greek did not die out – it just continued to change as every other language. Various Greek dialects from the ancient times continued to be used in various areas of the ancient world, from Hispania to China, from Central Asia to the Arabian peninsula.

Yes, in one sense, Koine can be considered a dialect of Classical Greek. But not in the normal sense of "dialect." Koine was not contemporary with the language of the "Classical" period, so was more like a descendant of the same clan as classical Greek, a distant younger cousin.

Keep in mind also that "Classical Greek" wasn't "classical" at the time it was spoken. It was just "Greek," or actually they called it Elenika. We refer to it now as classical only in light of the literature we have from that period and our knowledge of the language and its culture milieu. Greek was just Greek, with its variations from region to region, class to class and age to age.

The formal written forms we now call "classical" Greek were still the reference standard for written Greek in the first century AD, so written styles existed on a continuum between that older standard – set several hundred years before – and the current actual Greek language heard and used at that time in history. Virtually the full continuum of style appears in the New Testament texts.



[...]

Koine to Modern Greek
In general summary, Koine became the BASE for all modern Greek, superseding the classical forms, which already by the first century were being considered separate languages, and by the 3rd century were considered foreign languages.


Koine consolidated in the Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire), centered in Constantinople, in the early Middle Ages. Even modern Cypriots tell me the Biblical Greek is like a foreign language to them, which terribly surprised me, since I can read both, and they seem very similar to me!

(Greek has actually changed less since the first century than virtually any other European language. English speakers can hardly understand something written 400 years ago, like Shakespeare and the King James version of the Bible. Two thousand years ago, there was no such thing as an English language.)

The Common Greek language was a set of varieties, and, of course, continued to change. I did some study on this by visiting museums to read Byzantine manuscripts, like church edicts, ordination announcements, etc., but could not do a good scholarly job with the time I had.

You can see the gradual changes in grammatical and phonetic form over the centuries, just like in Spanish, French and English. The patterns of sound change, as well as grammar, are very similar to Latin.

In Greek, we see the common pattern of language change – things simplified. The current patterns of grammar and pronunciation in modern Greek have all developed systematically from the Koine forms, just as our modern languages have from their older forms.

The peripheral forms (dialects) died out, and major regional usages were absorbed into the general Greek language just as English dialectic forms have been accreted into the "standard" forms of English, giving us many forms of the same word with similar or different meanings. There are several dialects today, with some differences. Cypriot Greek is today the most like the first-century forms of Greek.

Robertson and other linguists of Greek give the same type of analysis of Greek as others did for all known modern languages with a literate history. Words overlapped in meaning and usage. Those who make the romantic claims of perfection for Greek appear to be unaware of the language itself and must make their claims up out of whole cloth, cut with crooked lines by dull scissors.

It is totally unbelievable to think that any human language is ever so precise as to defy human usage! A very characteristic of human speech is creativity and variety. Conformity also is a common feature of language, but innovation and conformity, or regularization, are both always going on at the same time, on different features of each language.

Shifts in Pronunciation
Thus pronunciation was shifting and uncertain in Koine Greek, indicated by the variety of spellings in borrowings in Aramaic, Latin, Egyptian, etc. Most notable is one of Jesus’ sayings on the cross, Eli, lama sabachthani, spelled by another gospel writer as Eloi. Eli and Eloi represent the same word, pronounced as in modern Greek “Eh-lee.” Which was the "correct" way to spell it? How do the Platonist Romantic spiritualizers answer that? Robertson has an amazingly detailed discussion of pronunciations, syntax and meanings which bring out the dynamic, living character of Koine Greek.









[Full Article LINKED HERE ]

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Oct 24, 2018
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#64
Why do some people discourage others from being a part of a local church?
Some even seem to condemn us for serving our Lord through a local church.
The NT is filled with evidence of local churches through out the Roman Empire.
I understand that there are some local churches that God probably does not recognize an His, but to condemn all is just wrong.
If a person chooses to ignore the command to assemble, that is between them and God, but that person should also be very aware of the sin they are committing when the condemn and/or encourage others to do the same.

***I have not done any of such.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#66
Why do some people discourage others from being a part of a local church?
Some even seem to condemn us for serving our Lord through a local church.
The NT is filled with evidence of local churches through out the Roman Empire.
Correct. Anyone discouraging other Christians from being a part of a local church (assembly) would be in violation of Scripture and promoting disobedience to Christ.

The NT was crystal clear that:

1. All sinners must be saved -- indeed they are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. All saints must be baptized almost as soon as they are saved, and baptism is by immersion ( symbolic death, burial, and resurrection).

3. All God s people should assemble locally with like-minded believers for the following reasons (Acts 2: 42, 44): And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread (worship), and in prayers...And all that believed were together, and had all things common.

At the same time, the church must be a Gospel-preaching church which holds to sound doctrine, and cares for its needy members (as did the Jerusalem church).
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#67
Where is that really happening? How would you teach Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-16? How would you recruit people to do such?
GOD gives grace through Faith In JESUS name.
Philippians 2:1-5
King James Version(KJV)


1.)If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2.) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3.)Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4.)Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5.)Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
+++
Ephesians 4:11-16
King James Version(KJV)

11.)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12.)For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13.)Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14.)That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, andcunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15.)But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16.)From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
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#68
More love, forgiveness & compassion. Less hate, greed & nationalism.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#69
Correct. Anyone discouraging other Christians from being a part of a local church (assembly) would be in violation of Scripture and promoting disobedience to Christ.

The NT was crystal clear that:

1. All sinners must be saved -- indeed they are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. All saints must be baptized almost as soon as they are saved, and baptism is by immersion ( symbolic death, burial, and resurrection).

3. All God s people should assemble locally with like-minded believers for the following reasons (Acts 2: 42, 44): And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread (worship), and in prayers...And all that believed were together, and had all things common.

At the same time, the church must be a Gospel-preaching church which holds to sound doctrine, and cares for its needy members (as did the Jerusalem church).

In Albuquerque, there are over 500 churches not counting home groups, but I have found any which are anywhere like Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-15. So currently in most of the weekend I listen to Christian worship music, usually about 10 sermons, do Bible study tool developing (which is not work for me, just enjoyment), and ministering (face to face or vai the Internet), I am not sinning for doing such. Most other people just go to church for 1-2 hours for selfish reasons. I was even recent forbidden from attending a church by its 2 pastors because I would not condemn the Evangelist Billy Graham and in another church for mentioning to a pastor in a phone text that he didn't keep his promise about visiting me and that one statement in his most recent sermon was wrong (when Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac, a ram not a lamb was the replacement to be sacrificed).
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#70
GOD gives grace through Faith In JESUS name.
Philippians 2:1-5
King James Version(KJV)


1.)If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2.) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3.)Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4.)Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5.)Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
+++
Ephesians 4:11-16
King James Version(KJV)

11.)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12.)For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13.)Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14.)That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, andcunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15.)But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16.)From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And how would you teach such for the goals local churches should have or goals a pastor should have?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#71
Where is that really happening? How would you teach Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-16? How would you recruit people to do such?
The Bible says that the world would get more and more technical and worser.
All I can do Is speak the truth as best I can and with the grace of GOD a door will open.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#72
More love, forgiveness & compassion. Less hate, greed & nationalism.
nationalism? What is nationalism? (It is not just what Hitler was for. He was just wanting to be a dictator and conquer the world and only allow Caucasians to live. But nationalism is also for just wanting better government policies for the citizens of one's country. What is globalism? (Revelation indicates such will be for a short time before the Second Coming of our Savior and Lord). What do nationalism and globalism have to do with local Christian churches?
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#73
The Bible says that the world would get more and more technical and worser.
All I can do Is speak the truth as best I can and with the grace of GOD a door will open.
??? What do those Scripture passages mean to you? And do you know any churches that are examples of such?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#74
And how would you teach such for the goals local churches should have or goals a pastor should have?
GOD Is the teacher and will tell you at the right moment what you should say.
Also you should read Timothy for some details.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#75
GOD Is the teacher and will tell you at the right moment what you should say.
Also you should read Timothy for some details.

There is much more in those 2 passages. And Who does God use to guide each of His adopted children. The answer is in the following:
***Very Important Teachings in John 13-17-- ETRS (7 pgs.)--
https://app.box.com/s/8uoyanljwo4l2trjqxokxemqbgztb9hk

You mentioned Timothy. NT-15-- 1 & 2 Timothy in ETRSF (9 pgs.)
https://app.box.com/s/hssmb1vgb96v3ozs9pakufu51pl50ytu
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#76
Well, not sure if you wrote the last part or not. If not, your source is utterly confused. Classical Greek (as above!) was BEFORE Koine Greek. Therefore, it does NOT come from a "late Greek word" but an earlier Greek word.

Which makes no sense at all, either way. Ekklesia is in the Bible. It does literally mean "called or elected ones," in the early church. And the romance languages seem to get it a bit closer - l'Eglises in French, for example. Which, by the way, translates directly into English as "church."

But, the Germanic languages were probably just try to capture the flavour of the "K" sound, with Kirche. Germans tend not to put "E" before nouns, (except for ein!). And, German is much more related to Greek than western, Latin based languages. When I took advanced German last year, I was delighted to find the grammar was virtually identical to Greek, in many ways. In fact, it helped my German to know Greek. But the explanations in German, also helped my Greek. I have not had a chance to check vocabulary origins, but certainly the noun and adjectival cases, the verbs, and the word order mirror Greek. It has been a pleasure reading the Bible in German, too! It is so similar to Greek!

My suggestion is to not copy and paste from sources that are iffy. In fact, until you can actually speak some Romance Languages, German and read Greek, probably best not to pontificate about things you know nothing about!
I read that link, and if not for how sadly deceived that group is I would have laughed.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#77
***The source is from a cult that is run like an army and many have to sleep on the floor. It was in California and I visited it there with my family, then they moved to Oregon, and then to New Mexico. I tried the e-mail address and it said the mailbox was full. One of my friends in Seattle said that a man who led a street preaching ministry she was part of quit and went to them in New Mexico and she has not heard from him for about two years. Did you go to the website? The contact page is what informed me.
What exactly is that cult? Obviously they are, very little is divulged on that site other than how humble, spiritual, and right with God they are. Lot's of Luke 18:9ff.

But again, what is that group?
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#78
What exactly is that cult? Obviously they are, very little is divulged on that site other than how humble, spiritual, and right with God they are. Lot's of Luke 18:9ff.

But again, what is that group?
What site did you go to? The contact page at http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/revolutn.htm told me that was the group my family and I had visited near Sacramento in the 1980s. I met the top General too. The Holy Spirit told me not to have anything more to do with them. I had read some of its writings and goals. How does Luke 18 relate?
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
693
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#79
nationalism? What is nationalism? (It is not just what Hitler was for. He was just wanting to be a dictator and conquer the world and only allow Caucasians to live. But nationalism is also for just wanting better government policies for the citizens of one's country. What is globalism? (Revelation indicates such will be for a short time before the Second Coming of our Savior and Lord). What do nationalism and globalism have to do with local Christian churches?
I believe the message of Christ is a global one. Many put the flag above Christ.
 
Oct 28, 2018
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#80
The Word provides all our needs.
But, few know the Word, and those who do to often only teach the part that supports their dogma.
THIS.

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