What does that simple question reveal?

[Wansvic]

Well, these are disciples, and they did believe.

A group receiving the Holy Spirit is different from individual receiving the Holy Spirit.

A group... receiving..that's becoming one of God's churches..being empowered as already saved and water baptised believers.

An individual receiving... Thats receiving the Spirit at belief in Jesus as God and Saviour

So I believe these are already converted... receiving the Holy Spirit as a group 'in the midst'.

Apollos taught these disciples..but did not know baptism rightly... So these disciples were baptised agai. In the right authority. The right way.

The context of the account after Paul asked the question does not change what the question expresses. It expresses the reality that believing in Jesus does not automatically result in a person being indwelt with the Holy Ghost. This is confirmed in numerous biblical records, including the self-same account.

As for the account, the individuals were disciples of John the Baptist. Neither they nor he had any idea that Jesus would eventually die, be buried and resurrect. Paul's message parallels the one Peter initially presented in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:37-42) The 12 individuals were told about Jesus and were rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus (see Acts 10:47-48) It was only after Paul laid hands on them that they each received the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Every single person must experience the Holy Ghost coming to dwell within their body. (Rom. 8:9) It is an essential part of NT rebirth.
Furthermore no where in the Acts 19 account is it stated that what occurred was for the building of a church. Verse 7 actually clarifies that the experience applied specifically to all 12 men.

"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Magenta]

Boy the last thing on this planet I need is to get embroiled in another one of these debates over whether or not we still receive a second infilling after we are first saved.

Anyway, this is found in scripture, Ephesians 1:13, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit but the actual thing people are talking about here is a 2nd occurence.

KJ21
In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I think I pretty much know by now that it is just about useless to go over and over and over this particular subject and I'm responding to your post because those in Christ are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit...but those who are cessationists do not get the whole benefit of what God offers.

That's all.

Yeah, the way it was worded sure was confusing, and when I first questioned it, the matter
was further confused by him saying that is correct when it was not what he meant at all. LOL

Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[DJT_47]

I find it interesting that most quote Paul's writings over what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel.

I think I saw Person quote John 1:29

I think Verse 33 is the foundational verse concerning the Baptism in the Holy Spirit Because Jesus is the one who Baptizes the believer in the Holy Spirit.

33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Now Jesus taught on what the Holy S[irit will do for the Believer starting in chapter 14 of John's Gospel.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.


16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,(like the same kind) that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

1. give you another Helper
2. He will be with you forever
3. The world cannot receive him
4. You Know HIM
5. He dwells WITH you and WILL be IN YOU In you and come upon you


The Holy Spirit comes in you to receive the Spirit of Truth for salvation, then you receive the empowerment of the Holy Spirit when HE comes upon you to be a witness, as Jesus said in Acts 1:8
and
John chapter 15:26, Jesus says:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27, And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Then in chapter 16:


5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away;

for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.



12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.



The Holy Spirit comes into you. Once you are saved and believe in the Lord Jesus, The Holy Spirit brings Jesus to the unbeliever so they can Believe. Then He leads them and guides them in to all Truth. The Holy Spirit comes into you and then comes along side as a HELPER, IN you and with you along side.

Who was Jesus talking to when all these things were said? His deciples. You actually hsve to go back to the end of John 11:54, to see that. So, was the promise(s) to them? Did the promise(s) come to pass? If so, where is it recorded? Yes, these things did occur and it's recorded in Acts 1 and 2. Read carefully and read the parallel gospels as well. What you'll see such as when reviewing the Luke passages, as in Luke 24, is that the promise was to and for the deciples, his apostles, and that as aforementioned, the falling of the Holy Ghost, or the baptism of the Holy Ghost, happened to them and was meant for them, and only they had the ability to further enable the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 (so called gifts) by the laying on of their hands. Today, there is no baptism in the Holy Ghost as it was in biblical times. Today, we, upon being baptized into Christ are promised the gift of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38; the gift of the Spirit itself, the indwelling of the Spirit, NOT, the gifts (plural), those miraculous manifestations of the Spirit as aforementioned.

 

[CS1]

Who was Jesus talking to when all these things were said? His deciples. You actually hsve to go back to the end of John 11:54, to see that. So, was the promise(s) to them? Did the promise(s) come to pass? If so, where is it recorded? Yes, these things did occur and it's recorded in Acts 1 and 2. Read carefully and read the parallel gospels as well. What you'll see such as when reviewing the Luke passages, as in Luke 24, is that the promise was to and for the deciples, his apostles, and that as aforementioned, the falling of the Holy Ghost, or the baptism of the Holy Ghost, happened to them and was meant for them, and only they had the ability to further enable the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 (so called gifts) by the laying on of their hands. Today, there is no baptism in the Holy Ghost as it was in biblical times. Today, we, upon being baptized into Christ are promised the gift of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38; the gift of the Spirit itself, the indwelling of the Spirit, NOT, the gifts (plural), those miraculous manifestations of the Spirit as aforementioned.

Knowing the context of the empowering of the Holy Spirit comes from Joel 2 and it was Fulfilled on the Day of Pentacost as Peter Proclaimed. Acts 2:16-17

Jesus said in Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

As Jesus also said, Mathew.28:19-20


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great Commission was to the disciples, too. Are we not included in that today, also?

 

[DJT_47]

Knowing the context of the empowering of the Holy Spirit comes from Joel 2 and it was Fulfilled on the Day of Pentacost as Peter Proclaimed. Acts 2:16-17

Jesus said in Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

As Jesus also said, Mathew.28:19-20


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great Commission was to the disciples, too. Are we not included in that today, also?

That is mixing issues. Sure, it's our part to go out and make deciples as well which is my sole purpose for participating on these forums, but don't confuse issues. I always contend that the various NT letters were not written to us, but to others and for others in biblical times and predicated upon the issues at that time, but there is application to us which we simply need to sort out and understand by careful study.

 

[iamsoandso]

But is that really what she is saying? or are folks assuming....cause that is not what she is saying. Paul has gone to his reward and thos of us typing madly away here, are not yet passed on.

I agree that's why I began by asking them to explain it first instead.

 

[CS1]

That is mixing issues. Sure, it's our part to go out and make deciples as well which is my sole purpose for participating on these forums, but don't confuse issues. I always contend that the various NT letters were not written to us, but to others and for others in biblical times and predicated upon the issues at that time, but there is application to us which we simply need to sort out and understand by careful study.

ok, well, will just agree to disagree.

thank you,

 

[posthuman]

I always contend that the various NT letters were not written to us, but to others and for others in biblical times and predicated upon the issues at that time, but there is application to us which we simply need to sort out and understand by careful study.

things really don't change much.

nothing new under the sun, you know

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well that is what you think but not what scripture states.

No. That is not what Scripture states at all. That is a false doctrine which perverts the truth about the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

LOL! In your very next post you mention water baptism and stress its for the purpose of receiving remission of sins. I knew it was just a matter of time.

Oh rats, I forgot. I'm not supposed to address others comments about water baptism. My obsession of sharing God's word just got the better of me.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh rats, I forgot. I'm not supposed to address others comments about water baptism. My obsession of sharing God's word just got the better of me.

Don't confuse your eisegesis with the truth from God's word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In Acts 10 Peter clarifies that being baptized in the name of Jesus is water baptism:

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-48

If you will recall those baptized by John submitted to it because they believed in the soon coming messiah. (Initially Jesus' identity as the messiah was not even known) Whereas, it is belief in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection that prompts repentance, AND obedience to the NT command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin.

Note that Jesus, Himself, said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) What Jesus said began, as He said it would, when Peter presented the initial message in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that Peter commanded everyone to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. Peter addresses receiving the Holy Ghost afterward.

Both baptism in the name of Jesus, meaning water, and the separate experience of receiving the Holy Ghost is once again referenced in the Samaritan account. They believed in the Apostle Philip's message and in the NAME of Jesus, and submitted to being baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 8:16) It wasn't until days later that the individuals received the Holy Ghost as well.

brother ask yourself was Peter or John or anyone else re-baptized in water ? John the Baptist baptism ( done in water ) was about this long standing promise from God

“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son. And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; For he hath visited and redeemed his people, And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: For thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people By the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; Whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13, 15-17, 57, 63, 67-68, 76-78‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had been baptized in water with this baptism

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭

they actually say this but they hadn’t been baptized by the spirit yet which is what Paul is asking them there’s no need for them to be baptized in water for remission the group in acts ten you use as an example were gentiles and hadn’t ever been baptized for remission

The Ephesians say they had already been baptized in water and pup explains about the spirit and then Jesus name is in thier hearts Paul literally says this brother

“Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The only part that was missing is they didn’t hear the truth about believing in Jesus all they knew was “ john is baptizing for remission of sins “ and they. Relieved and acted later Paul preached Jesus to them and they receive the spirit is all I’m saying

consider Peter , did he also need to be re baptized In Water because he wasn’t baptized in the name of Jesus either until he received the baptism of the spirit at pentocost why didn’t anyone else need to be re baptized with johns baptism ?

“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; ( notice Jesus is approving johns baptism not saying it needs to be done again )


but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:2-4, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then later Peter goes to a group of gentiles and they need baptism
In water for remission because they hadn’t been baptized yet

baptism is one act on our part if we’re baptized for remission we just need to receive the spirit

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh rats, I forgot. I'm not supposed to address others comments about water baptism. My obsession of sharing God's word just got the better of me.

Lol it’s not obsession to believe what you learn in scriptire bro

Its more that people are obsessed with removing what the Bible teaches us about each topic to make everything irrelevant so we don’t need to do anything

communion ? Nope it’s just a ritual . Baptism in water for remission of sins ? No that’s a ritual and Old Testament …it’s not as if God is going to teach believers one thing then come and say “forget about what I said now your already saved don’t believe anything I said before “

Baptism is just what the Bible teaches everyone can’t accept it though that’s the problem with hypergracer if you don’t have to do anything everything you learn you need to do becomes irrelevant

 

[Wansvic]

Lol it’s not obsession to believe what you learn in scriptire bro

Its more that people are obsessed with removing what the Bible teaches us about each topic to make everything irrelevant so we don’t need to do anything

communion ? Nope it’s just a ritual . Baptism in water for remission of sins ? No that’s a ritual and Old Testament …it’s not as if God is going to teach believers one thing then come and say “forget about what I said now your already saved don’t believe anything I said before “

Baptism is just what the Bible teaches everyone can’t accept it though that’s the problem with hypergracer if you don’t have to do anything everything you learn you need to do becomes irrelevant

Thanks, and I do know that. And no matter the insults I intend to continue to share scripture:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house." Matt 5:11-15

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thanks, and I do know that. And no matter the insults I intend to continue to share scripture:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house." Matt 5:11-15

yes brother we also want to always still learn too from scripture

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Satan works hard to teach us things that aren’t true what I mean to say is alot of times it’s ignorance and a snare learned beforehand and isn’t personal and willful disagreement and insult just the enemy stirring up the pot between believers

 

[Wansvic]

brother ask yourself was Peter or John or anyone else re-baptized in water ?...
“Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The only part that was missing is they didn’t hear the truth about believing in Jesus all they knew was “ john is baptizing for remission of sins “ and they. Relieved and acted later Paul preached Jesus to them and they receive the spirit is all I’m saying

consider Peter , did he also need to be re baptized In Water because he wasn’t baptized in the name of Jesus either until he received the baptism of the spirit at pentocost why didn’t anyone else need to be re baptized with johns baptism ?

“I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; ( notice Jesus is approving johns baptism not saying it needs to be done again )


but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:2-4, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then later Peter goes to a group of gentiles and they need baptism
In water for remission because they hadn’t been baptized yet

baptism is one act on our part if we’re baptized for remission we just need to receive the spirit

I've often thought about Peter's words specific to the command to be baptized AND receive the Holy Ghost. He said EVERYONE was required to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord. As I mentioned I do believe this is water baptism. Because in every case being baptized in the name of the Lord is distinguished from the experience of actually receiving the Holy Ghost.

Also relevant is the fact that the OT sacrificial laws were still in effect when John was preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. It was only after Jesus fulfilled what those OT laws pointed to through His sacrificial death that the NT was ushered in. And the command to repent and be water baptized in the name of the Lord was begun. As I mentioned the scripture in Acts 10:47-48 confirms that baptism in the name of the Lord is water baptism. Also, consider that Ananias told Paul to arise, and be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. The parallel: be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sin. (Acts 22:16)

Although our understanding differs somewhat I thank you for sharing. I enjoy our discussions.

 

[Cameron143]

You better read it again: "And he said to them, 'Into what then were you baptized?' So they said, 'Into John’s baptism.' ” Acts 19:3

Good catch.

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah, the way it was worded sure was confusing, and when I first questioned it, the matter
was further confused by him saying that is correct when it was not what he meant at all. LOL

Ephesians 1:13-14

You are so smart you are even right when you are wrong.

 

[Wansvic]

Good catch.

His point does not change what Paul's question revealed. Believing does not automatically impart the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. The experiences are distinct from one another. The actual account clarifies this truth as well.

And, the NT water baptism for remission of sin is to be administered in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied this change would occur. (Luke 24:47) And Peter clarified that baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism. (Acts 10:47-48)

 

[Cameron143]

His point does not change what Paul's question revealed. Believing does not automatically impart the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. The experiences are distinct from one another. The actual account clarifies this truth as well.

And, the NT water baptism for remission of sin is to be administered in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied this change would occur. (Luke 24:47) And Peter clarified that baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism. (Acts 10:47-48)

You are conflating 2 things. Every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit as Romans 8 reveals. It is not possible to be a child of God without such.
The verse you quoted is dealing with what is taught in Ephesians 1:13. Unlike the indwelling of the Spirit which is nonexperiential and positional...we are placed into Christ, this expression of the Spirit is partially inward but also has an outward manifestation. Rather than judicially placing us into the body of Christ, its purpose is to seal and authenticate to the believer that what is wrought in him or her is genuinely of God. It is God's seal and assurance to the believer.
In the book of Acts you find this happening alongside belief or at a later time.
The reason believers don't experience this to a much greater degree is because it's not spoken of in many circles and taught errantly in others.