What does that simple question reveal?

[Niki7]

Yeah, the way it was worded sure was confusing, and when I first questioned it, the matter
was further confused by him saying that is correct when it was not what he meant at all. LOL

Ephesians 1:13-14

Wonderful to be sealed! love the little bird sitting out of the frame on the left

 

[Niki7]

I agree that's why I began by asking them to explain it first instead.

Sometimes in these threads you just about want someone to clear the cobwebs and smoke out of the way to just read the pertinent info

 

[Niki7]

No. That is not what Scripture states at all. That is a false doctrine which perverts the truth about the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Cessationism is the actual disagreement with God's word. You will find that out one day I suppose

 

[HeIsHere]

This question was limited to a very specific situation. It is not for general application. So we need to keep the context in mind.

Exactly!

 

[CS1]

"Have you received the Holy Ghost/Spirit SINCE you believed?"

This question was not about the gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1cor chapter 12.

This question was asked by Paul to the disciples of John in Ephesus.

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

“We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”


Paul asked, “Into what then were you baptized?”

They said, “Into John’s baptism.”

4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.


One cannot understand what Happen IF you do not read John Chapter 1:33

"I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water (John's baptism was with water) said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."

Paul, have you been baptized by Jesus with HIS Baptism, which is with the Holy Spirit? As John said, Jesus who comes after him would do. Paul explains that these 12 Disciples.

Jesus said, "You shall receive Power after the Holy Ghost comes upon you to be my Witnesses,". Acts 1:8


John 1:33 Acts 1:8 is what Paul was referring to. John's baptism was for repentance with water, as John said

Jesus' Baptism was for empowerment; John said Jesus is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit, and Jesus said.

I go to my Father, and I Must go so the Comforter will come John 14 .

Jesus' baptism is to have the power to be a witness of the Lord Jesus' Resurrection. "TO BE MY WITNESSes." Acts 1:8

What were they to witness? The resurrected Lord.

Water baptism in Jesus's name doesn't save you. The death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Did. We testify HE is alive, and the Holy Spirit helps us to be powerful witnesses.

This was what was lacking in the 12 at Ephesus. Paul helped them be empowered / Baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is the Baptism of Jesus which is not in water.

 

[Wansvic]

You are conflating 2 things. Every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit as Romans 8 reveals. It is not possible to be a child of God without such.
The verse you quoted is dealing with what is taught in Ephesians 1:13. Unlike the indwelling of the Spirit which is nonexperiential and positional...we are placed into Christ, this expression of the Spirit is partially inward but also has an outward manifestation. Rather than judicially placing us into the body of Christ, its purpose is to seal and authenticate to the believer that what is wrought in him or her is genuinely of God. It is God's seal and assurance to the believer.
In the book of Acts you find this happening alongside belief or at a later time.
The reason believers don't experience this to a much greater degree is because it's not spoken of in many circles and taught errantly in others.

I believe being sealed and indwelt with the Holy Ghost are references of the same experience. The detailed conversion accounts reveal when the individuals actually received the indwelling presence. (Acts 2:2-39, 8:17, 9:17, 10:44-46, 19:6) The accounts also reveal that believing in Jesus is the first step of faith in the process. And, as you noted Romans 8:9 reveals that being sealed/indwelt by the Holy Ghost is not optional.

I am reminded of Jesus' words recently referenced by Pilgrimshope:

"Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

 

[Cameron143]

I believe being sealed and indwelt with the Holy Ghost are references of the same experience. The detailed conversion accounts reveal when the individuals actually received the indwelling presence. (Acts 2:2-39, 8:17, 9:17, 10:44-46, 19:6) The accounts also reveal that believing in Jesus is the first step of faith in the process. And, as you noted Romans 8:9 reveals that being sealed/indwelt by the Holy Ghost is not optional.

I am reminded of Jesus' words recently referenced by Pilgrimshope:

"Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

I know you believe they are the same and it has led you into error.
Obedience never got anyone into heaven. The reason is because even our best efforts fall short. Perfect righteousness demands fulfilling every aspect of the law and doing so continually. That's why in Isaiah 64:6 God compares our righteousness with filthy rags.

The only way not to sin is to walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16...Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The only people who continue in His word must do so by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why those who continue in His word are called disciples...because the possess the Holy Spirit. Those attempting to keep the word in their own strength are not actually attaining the righteousness which is of the law and so are not actually obeying as they suspect they are.

 

[hornetguy]

This was what was lacking in the 12 at Ephesus. Paul helped them be empowered / Baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is the Baptism of Jesus which is not in water.

Which begs the question... why were they baptized in water in Jesus' name? It's one and the same thing... you are immersed (baptized) in water, simulating the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus, which also immerses you into the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:38
Dunking someone in water does not "save" them, but it's a necessary part of salvation... our outward sign of our joining in covenant with Jesus...

 

[CS1]

Which begs the question... why were they baptized in water in Jesus' name? It's one and the same thing... you are immersed (baptized) in water, simulating the death and burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which also immerses you into the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:38
Dunking someone in water does not "save" them, but it's a necessary part of salvation... our outward sign of our joining in covenant with Jesus...

They were not baptized in water in Jesus' name. That is assumed. The baptism of The Lord is with the Holy Spirit, not with water. In fact, there is no scripture that says Jesus himself Baptized anyone in the water.

What do see is The disciples baptizing, BUT Jesus did not baptize anyone. John 4:2

Did the water Baptism of Jesus save Him? No. Neither does it save us. Jesus is our salvation, not water baptism. Water baptism is an act of obedience as OUR Lord, too, was Baptized.

 

[Edify]

Acts 19:1And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7There were about twelve men in all.

If you read the CONTEXT of this, it says "he found some disciples" (of John). So Paul explained about receiving Christ, THEN they believed. Afterwards, they were baptized according to the NT scriptures, for John's baptism was one of repentence during the old covenant.
V6 Then Paul laid his hands on them & they received the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit with the evidence.

It's sad to see in this forum that some here are mentioning the indwelling HS AS the baptism in/of the HS as if they are the same thing. They are not.
All christians can to a great degree walk in the Spirit by denying the flesh & walking in obedience to the Bible. But to walk in the Spirit the way those of Acts did they cannot because they have not received the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit "since they believed". They did not know it was still available to the church because of the teachings of the traditions of men.
So, I ask you who have been saved, "Have you received the full immersion of the Holy Spirit since you believed?
And to those who have, have you been refilled since then?
There is nothing wrong with the current Op or the question.

 

[CS1]

Acts 19:1And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7There were about twelve men in all.

If you read the CONTEXT of this, it says "he found some disciples" (of John). So Paul explained about receiving Christ, THEN they believed. Afterwards, they were baptized according to the NT scriptures, for John's baptism was one of repentence during the old covenant.
V6 Then Paul laid his hands on them & they received the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit with the evidence.

It's sad to see in this forum that some here are mentioning the indwelling HS AS the baptism in/of the HS as if they are the same thing. They are not.
All christians can to a great degree walk in the Spirit by denying the flesh & walking in obedience to the Bible. But to walk in the Spirit the way those of Acts did they cannot because they have not received the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit "since they believed". They did not know it was still available to the church because of the teachings of the traditions of men.
So, I ask you who have been saved, "Have you received the full immersion of the Holy Spirit since you believed?
And to those who have, have you been refilled since then?
There is nothing wrong with the current Op or the question.

The issue is:

1. The word "Baptized" Baptism, is more than just water.
2. The misunderstanding of empowering of the Holy Spirit which is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is also the Baptism of Jesus.
3. The argument of those who were saved before Pentacost and those who think they were saved on Pentacost.
4. Those of the disciples in Ephesus were they saved or were they not.

 

[DJT_47]

They were not baptized in water in Jesus' name. That is assumed. The baptism of The Lord is with the Holy Spirit, not with water. In fact, there is no scripture that says Jesus himself Baptized anyone in the water.

What do see is The disciples baptizing, BUT Jesus did not baptize anyone. John 4:2

Did the water Baptism of Jesus save Him? No. Neither does it save us. Jesus is our salvation, not water baptism. Water baptism is an act of obedience as OUR Lord, too, was Baptized.

You continue to make no sense

 

[hornetguy]

At the time that all of the NT was written, if "baptism" (immersion) was mentioned, it ALWAYS meant water. There was no other definition of it, other than immersion in liquid.
Jesus gave us another understanding of how we were to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.... we would be baptized with the Spirit.... in other words, we would be immersed in the Spirit. THAT is the spritual baptism that Jesus told us would happen. Not only would we be baptized in water, at the same time, we are being immersed in the Spirit..
It is very evident in scripture that baptism in water was expected of every new convert... but after Jesus resurrection, there was added the baptism in the Spirit when we are baptized in water. "...unless you are born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom.... " John 3
The eunuch that Philip taught ..... "see, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized?..." Acts 8
The apostle Paul, after being blinded when being confronted by Jesus, not eating or drinking for 3 whole days.... the FIRST thing he did after regaining his sight was to rise up and be baptized. Acts 9
Baptism in water is an essential part of becoming a believer.... no, the act of baptism does not save you. Nor does believing, nor does simply having faith....... ALL of those are a part of becoming a believer/follower of Jesus.... a participant in the new Covenant...

 

[CS1]

You continue to make no sense

You continue to insult and be incapable of understanding.

 

[CS1]

At the time that all of the NT was written, if "baptism" (immersion) was mentioned, it ALWAYS meant water. There was no other definition of it, other than immersion in liquid.
Jesus gave us another understanding of how we were to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.... we would be baptized with the Spirit.... in other words, we would be immersed in the Spirit. THAT is the spritual baptism that Jesus told us would happen. Not only would we be baptized in water, at the same time, we are being immersed in the Spirit..
It is very evident in scripture that baptism in water was expected of every new convert... but after Jesus resurrection, there was added the baptism in the Spirit when we are baptized in water. "...unless you are born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom.... " John 3
The eunuch that Philip taught ..... "see, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized?..." Acts 8
The apostle Paul, after being blinded when being confronted by Jesus, not eating or drinking for 3 whole days.... the FIRST thing he did after regaining his sight was to rise up and be baptized. Acts 9
Baptism in water is an essential part of becoming a believer.... no, the act of baptism does not save you. Nor does believing, nor does simply having faith....... ALL of those are a part of becoming a believer/follower of Jesus.... a participant in the new Covenant...

I disagree


The word "Baptism" must be kept in context with the text. Jeuss did not say unless you were born in water.



Jesus said to Nicodemus :

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Then Nicodemus asked :

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Then Jesus said:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Jesus is telling Nicodemus you were born of the flesh. NOW you need to be Born of the Spirit. Flesh and Spirit do not mix

You were born a JEW of the flesh, Nicodemus, Yet it is not enough to see the Kingdom of God. Now you must be Born of the Spirit.

 

[DJT_47]

You continue to insult and be incapable of understanding.

You said "The baptism of The Lord is with the Holy Spirit, not with water."

How does this occur and exactly what does this mean? How is one baptized with the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Where is this found in scripture and does it apply to us today according to scripture?

Jesus didn't baptize, correct but too he was sinless and didn't need to be saved, so what's your point?

 

[hornetguy]

Jesus is telling Nicodemus you were born of the flesh. NOW you need to be Born of the Spirit.

I have heard that explanation, and it could possibly mean exactly that.... except when a baby is born, it is not normally said that the baby was "born of water"..... they were simply "born".

Jesus could have been hinting at the water breaking during a human birth, but he also could have been using that hint to say "not only do you get baptized in water, you also will be baptized in the Spirit...... because remember, again, anytime anyone during that time said "baptism", it always meant immersion in water. (unless they were discussing making pickles...)

It would be similar to the comparing of water immersion baptism to the "saving" of Noah and his family..... "baptism, which corresponds to this (Noah being saved from destruction by water) now saves us.... " Noah's family was saved from a degenerate earth by the cleansing power of the water....

 

[Cameron143]

Being born of water and Spirit?

The Spirit is simple.

Water refers to the gospel. See 1 Peter 1:23 and Romans 10:17.

 

[DJT_47]

I have heard that explanation, and it could possibly mean exactly that.... except when a baby is born, it is not normally said that the baby was "born of water"..... they were simply "born".

Jesus could have been hinting at the water breaking during a human birth, but he also could have been using that hint to say "not only do you get baptized in water, you also will be baptized in the Spirit...... because remember, again, anytime anyone during that time said "baptism", it always meant immersion in water. (unless they were discussing making pickles...)

It would be similar to the comparing of water immersion baptism to the "saving" of Noah and his family..... "baptism, which corresponds to this (Noah being saved from destruction by water) now saves us.... " Noah's family was saved from a degenerate earth by the cleansing power of the water....

In response to CS1, we are born of the Spirit upon being baptized into Christ since its at that point we get the Holy Spirit per Acts2:38. It's the indwelling of the Spirit which is received at baptism into Christ.

Being born of water and Spirit?

The Spirit is simple.

Water refers to the gospel. See 1 Peter 1:23 and Romans 10:17.

????? Water never ever equated to the gospel! Coming to that conclusion by the scriptures cited is beyond a stretch and another desperate attempt to discredit baptism as being irrelevant and unimportant. You are dreaming.

 

[Cameron143]

In response to CS1, we are born of the Spirit upon being baptized into Christ since its at that point we get the Holy Spirit per Acts2:38. It's the indwelling of the Spirit which is received at baptism into Christ.
????? Water never ever equated to the gospel! Coming to that conclusion by the scriptures cited is beyond a stretch and another desperate attempt to discredit baptism as being irrelevant and unimportant. You are dreaming.

You obviously didn't read the verses. We are born again by the word of God. There is no faith apart from the word of God because that's what produces faith. And there is no salvation without faith.
I love baptism and believe water baptism is being spoken of in Acts 2:38. But the only baptism that can place us into Christ is spiritual. Water baptism is a great way to publicly show this. It's also a good way to get wet.