What does that simple question reveal?
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You are correct. Cornelius and his weren't saved when they believed nor was or is anyone. When they believed they were still in sin he certainly the need for baptism into Christ at which time their sins were remitted, they received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and they were added to the body of Christ which is his church, exactly what the Jews did on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-47).
I do appreciate your kindness in expressing your thoughts. And I agree with concepts you express. However, in the case of the verse in question it actually specifically references the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit not spiritual gifts.
I do on many occasions pray about and study areas/ideas that others bring up. It is not my intention to prove myself right. What is of utmost importance is to be right concerning the truth of God's word. When presented with scripture that opposes my belief system it is that belief system that must, and has in the past, yielded to the word. Not the other way around. To refuse to yield to God's word is foolish and could very well have negative eternal consequences.
I do on many occasions pray about and study areas/ideas that others bring up. It is not my intention to prove myself right. What is of utmost importance is to be right concerning the truth of God's word. When presented with scripture that opposes my belief system it is that belief system that must, and has in the past, yielded to the word. Not the other way around. To refuse to yield to God's word is foolish and could very well have negative eternal consequences.
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Note: Paul asked the guys if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed. His question indicates he thought they believed in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and understood they may not have received the Holy Ghost yet. The account parallels the Samaritans experience. They believed in Jesus, got water baptized in His name. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days later.
I don't know why people have to complicate things so much. Believer's receive the indwelling Holy spirit when they are born again. That baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience only for those who are born again. I was a very new Christian when the so-called charismatic movement started in Australia. Non-pentecostal Christians became aware that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a separate gift. The pastor of the church I attended was one of them. Previously, he had condemned those who promoted the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then he became a fierce advocate.
Some Baptists teach that you are baptised in the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ. A Pentecostal pastor I know said that he prayed for many Baptists, but they were already baptised in the Holy Spirit. They were taught that and so they had faith for it.
Some Baptists teach that you are baptised in the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ. A Pentecostal pastor I know said that he prayed for many Baptists, but they were already baptised in the Holy Spirit. They were taught that and so they had faith for it.
I remember it like it was yesterday. It was Christmas Eve 1974, about 10.30 pm. I'd met a lot of Pentecostals, including people from Teen Challenge and a missionary in Hong Kong. Eventually, it seemed clear to me that I should be baptised in the Holy Spirit myself. However, I did not receive for several months. That night I was reading yet another book about the Holy Spirit. The last page had the answer to my problem. Pat Boon said that some people did not receive because they were focused more on the gift than the giver. That was me exactly. The moment I realised that was the problem, a weight lifted off me and I began to speak in tongues. It was not forced, no one coached me, there was no emotional hype, just me and Jesus.
Longer term, I experienced some ot the manifestations of the Spirit. I prophesied, had words of knowledge, words of wisdom and spirtual discernment. I received a gift of faith for healing once also.
I also realised that being baptised in the Holy Spirit has little to do with fruit of the Spirit. Paul rebuked the "gifted" Corinthians. I discovered that the modern Pentecostal churches around my area were no better than Corinth.
The greatest risk for Pentecostals/Charismatics is spiritual pride. I've seen plenty of that.
Longer term, I experienced some ot the manifestations of the Spirit. I prophesied, had words of knowledge, words of wisdom and spirtual discernment. I received a gift of faith for healing once also.
I also realised that being baptised in the Holy Spirit has little to do with fruit of the Spirit. Paul rebuked the "gifted" Corinthians. I discovered that the modern Pentecostal churches around my area were no better than Corinth.
The greatest risk for Pentecostals/Charismatics is spiritual pride. I've seen plenty of that.
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The problem I see with the whole charismatic/Pentecostal movement is that the scriptures don't support it in today's church, and that it was limited in duration for specific reasons relative to the early church. It, the "gifts of the Spirit," or more appropriately termed, manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, were made manifest by the apostle's hands confirmed by such verses as Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6-8, Acts 8:9-19, Acts 19:6, and 2 Tim 1:6, so therefore they've all ceased as stated they would in 1 Cor 13:8 since the apostle's are dead. The gifts were needed to create, support, and propagate the early church, and unlike today, they then had no compiled written word to guide them, which purpose the gifts served. That's basically it as far as I see it relative to scripture. Is something going on today, most likely yes, but I question the source.
Sorry, but you have absolutely no scriptural basis for denying that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today. If you think that the perfect has come, you are deluded. Jesus is the living Word of God. No one alive has reached His perfection. If we compare the modern church to the early church, we are in even greater need of the power of the Holy Spirit.
I've been born again for around 50 years. Due to my military service and consequent travels, I experienced a great deal in the first few years of my Christian life. Where I live now, there are virtually no manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The church in general is shrivelling up. Many are losing members, especially the more traditional. Some are turning into entertainment centres. Others are embracing the world's demonic woke/progressive agenda. It's hard to find a church that functions as the body of Christ.
Be real careful about what you say about what you say about the "something". Yes, there is indeed a counterfeit of the Spirit as Jesus warned. It has deceived some of the elect. However, the reason there can be a counterfeit is because there is also the real. Don't start calling the Holy Spirit evil. God does not take kindly to that.
It is also clear from history that many revivals were associated with the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The revival that I know most about is the Welsh revival in the 1900's. There were excesses and fakes in among the real, but for sure it was an amazing time in the life of the church. It's a tragedy that the church so quickly settles into complacency and revival fizzles out. But that does not invalidate the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus told His disciples to make disciples and teach them what he taught. One of the things that Jesus said was that we need power to serve, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I can find no evidence that Lord Jesus rescinded that instruction.
I've been born again for around 50 years. Due to my military service and consequent travels, I experienced a great deal in the first few years of my Christian life. Where I live now, there are virtually no manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The church in general is shrivelling up. Many are losing members, especially the more traditional. Some are turning into entertainment centres. Others are embracing the world's demonic woke/progressive agenda. It's hard to find a church that functions as the body of Christ.
Be real careful about what you say about what you say about the "something". Yes, there is indeed a counterfeit of the Spirit as Jesus warned. It has deceived some of the elect. However, the reason there can be a counterfeit is because there is also the real. Don't start calling the Holy Spirit evil. God does not take kindly to that.
It is also clear from history that many revivals were associated with the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The revival that I know most about is the Welsh revival in the 1900's. There were excesses and fakes in among the real, but for sure it was an amazing time in the life of the church. It's a tragedy that the church so quickly settles into complacency and revival fizzles out. But that does not invalidate the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus told His disciples to make disciples and teach them what he taught. One of the things that Jesus said was that we need power to serve, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I can find no evidence that Lord Jesus rescinded that instruction.
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My post #158 was in answer to YOUR comment that Cornelius and the others were saved the moment they believed in Jesus and were indwelt with the Holy Ghost.
Scripture reveals acquiring the NT rebirth is a process involving steps of faith; belief in Jesus, repentance, being baptized in water in the name of Jesus, and being indwelt with the Holy Ghost as well. Clearly the Holy Ghost is not automatically received upon obedience to water baptism as confirmed in the Acts 10 account and Acts 8 too.
The detailed conversion accounts confirm the sequence in which one receives the Holy Ghost and submits to water baptism differ and are essential elements.
Scripture reveals acquiring the NT rebirth is a process involving steps of faith; belief in Jesus, repentance, being baptized in water in the name of Jesus, and being indwelt with the Holy Ghost as well. Clearly the Holy Ghost is not automatically received upon obedience to water baptism as confirmed in the Acts 10 account and Acts 8 too.
The detailed conversion accounts confirm the sequence in which one receives the Holy Ghost and submits to water baptism differ and are essential elements.
can you show me where in the bible it says it is a process? Other than the sanctification of the believer.
And explain the following please.
1. Peter did not lay hands on Cornelious or their family. The were baptized in the Holy Spirit, as Peter was yet speaking
2. the received the Holy Spirit before water baptism.
3. where did a person receive the Holy Spirit and not be saved first.
It's a process of logic and logical events as they unfold naturally. It's not dedcribed as a process a anywhere but it naturally occurs as one. It starts with belief which initiates faith. That's simple and can be readily determined by a casual reading of scripture. Belief and faith are followed by a requirement found in Romans 10:9, which is a public confession of one's belief. This is evidenced by the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He was asked if he believed he could be baptized to which he confessed his belief thst Jesus Christ was the Son of God after which he was baptized, immersed in water. The only thing thus account didn't reveal is the requirement to repent. If you look at Acts 2:38, you find repentance was also a necessity prior to baptism as was told to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. They too believed, were told to repent, and then were baptized. So, you can easily surmise from these two accounts all that is required: in both cases, belief was first and baptism was last. In between you find confession of belief and repentance. Pretty simple and pretty obvious what order is logical and necessary.
1. They were disciples of John the Baptist., not yet under jesus' saving grace
2. They did not know the full gospel.
3. Acts 19 doesn't give us all the conversation details.
Paul, by God's providence crossed paths with some of Johns disciples, they hadn't even heard of the Holy spirit v2;3.
Althoigh this sequence is written as fast paced, I am sure Paul explained to the 12 men the full gospel as we have a snippet of it from v4 and 5 - note careful as luke tells us the men 'on hearing this' where then given a christian baptism and paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.. They obviously believed Pauls telling of the gospel. (if you read Acts 18 appolos was the same. We see luke joing the 'john the baptist' theme with appolos and the dozen men being taught the full gospel).
We could say here we have a mini pentecost as the gospel spreads. Just like the great comission from jerusalem, all judea, samria and into the world.
The book of Acts follows the pattern of the great comission. And at each stage we see this public demonstration from the Apostles. Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10 and then 19.
So this is not about water baptism (saves), nor is it about a very modern concept of a second spiritual experince as in the charismatic baptism of the spirit.
But the spread of the gospel displayed publicly in power. The power and authority of jesus delegated to the apostles.
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