What does the Bible mean about the role of women?

tourist · Jun 12, 2020

Paul said the he does not permit a woman to teach or be in authority over a man, this is not the same as saying that God does not permit. Paul had his reasons for stating what he did in addressing the culture and tradition and doctrine at that time.

By all means take an active role in your faith as you are led by God to do so.

I will say however that many on this site equate what Paul did not permit as a command from God. In a lot of Paul's writing it states 'thus says the Lord' or words to that effect. Regarding the role of a woman in the matter of her role as a member of a church he says "I do not permit" which is not the same as God does not permit.

I am glad that you want to be a good Christian and would have to say that you're definitely on the right spiritual track. Glad to have you as a member of our community. Welcome to CC.

Dino246 · Jun 12, 2020

Corban said:

First, I would like to say that your points are taken. I can also imagine that this theme has had multiple discussions in the past to which I was not privy to, and to which you feel less inclined to repeat. So I will let my main argument stand, as you allow too, and address the points you made. As a student of English and Greek, you, like the rest of us, are aware of the plain language used by the Holy Spirit that (1) the head of woman is the man, (2) the woman is to be in subjection, (3) the woman is to ask her husband for any explanation of any matter that arises during the meeting after the meeting, and (4) any attempt to take a position of authority is to "usurp" it. Further, although it is outside the scope of my posting, the woman is commanded, not by me, or any man, but by the Holy Spirit, to cover her head when praying or prophesying "for the sake of the angels", while the man would dishonor his Head, Christ, if he did the same. So, I think the matter of God's government in the Church is settled - with or without any eloquence on my part.

On your point that Junia is female I will concede. I believe so myself.

On your point on "kinsmen" I will also concede. But your argument is equally questionable as the Holy Spirit DOES make a gender difference OFTEN. See Matthew 12:50, Mark 3:35, Romans 16:1, 15, 1st Corinthians 7:15, 9:5 and James 2:15.

On the point of grammar in the above scripture on Junia, you let my argument stand that rather than be one of the Apostles, she was noted by them.

The use of the word "sexist" is a weak argument. It is based on emotion and hopes to establish a point without addressing the issue. It also puts you in a seat judging the Holy Spirit Who also said, quote;

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (1st Corinthians 11:3)
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1st Corinthians 11:7)
"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1st Corinthians 11:9)
"For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts" (2nd Timothy 3:6)

Added to this, you did not address the fact that the Holy Spirit did not name Eve. He said "the woman". That Eve is meant is not denied, but by using the word "woman" the women of the Church are addressed. That is the context. The woMAN of Eden was deceived so the woMEN of Corinth may not teach. The word "woman" also invokes Genesis 1:11-12. God has set forth an immutable principle. Everything will reproduce exactly like itself. Eve, by this principle, would produce the "kind" of herself.

In closing, may I ask a question? I placed the blame, responsibility and open rebellion of "the transgression" on Adam. Was I not being sexist in this, or was I simply recording the facts as recorded in Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." ?

Though you were not here for those discussions, they aren't private. You can search the forum and read them for yourself.

Respectfully, I'm going to choose not to respond further as you have introduced several lines of evidence not in your first post. This thread is not the place for it.

Scribe · Jun 12, 2020

ElizabethAdams said:

Thanks for the topic. I think I can help. I understood these scriptures when I first read them. However later I heard other people, even Bible scholars and commentaries interpret them differently that what I understood. I was forced to examine the scriptures closely to see if I was making a mistake or if others were. My goal is to know the correct God intended interpretation of 1 Tim 2:12. This is what I have discovered so far:

1) It was always God's plan to pour out His Spirit on all flesh and empower women and men both for the purpose of ministry and proclamation of the word of God under the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit with signs following.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

This outpouring he is speaking about was not salvation, the 120 in the upper room were already saved by faith in Christ. This was for the purpose of making them witnesses, to go and preach to all nations.
In that context he emphasizes that he puts no difference between male and female in this empowering gifts for ministry with an emphasis on the vocal gifts to make his point, tongues and prophesying.

3) To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter is quoting Paul

1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation (looking at all the other scriptures where Paul and others spoke about the wife submitting to the husband out of honor and respect) we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)

We are dealing with centuries of bad hermeneutics on this subject. There is no text that says a woman cannot preach the word of God. God is still pouring out His Spirit on women to prophesy and to preach. This is God's intention. Do not let bad hermeneutics keep you from obeying God's call to prophesy, preach, teach and spread the gospel in any way God wants to use you whatsoever.

It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry (as you will often hear people state) when he said that a women should not teach, or usurp authority over a man. Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known. We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.

Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions.

The reason it does not sit well with you is because it is bad hermeneutics and not the heart of God. It would be like the Pharisees saying you cannot heal on the sabbath, come back another day because they thought they had the scripture interpreted correctly but they did not. To say that God does not want women to preach does not sit well with you because it is not in line with the revealed heart and intention of God that he wants to pour his Spirit on women for prophetic ministry also. As a matter of fact it is recorded from other writers during the 1st century that the women involved in ministry in the church surprised those that spoke about the Christians in the first century. They noticed the liberty of the women which was different than both Judaism or Gentiles were used to seeing.

Search for yourself and try and find the passage that says a woman cannot preach the word in church buildings or when a man is present. It is not there. It has been inserted by people for so long they have everyone convinced that the bible says that and it does not. Now they might be convinced that the phrase "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." means that a woman cannot preach the bible or preach in a church or preach when a man is in the room, or a myriad of other interpretations but as you can see with your own eyes the text says none of those things.

The leaven of the Pharisees keeps people in bondage to FEAR of violating some RULE here based on bad hermeneutics. What I mean by the leaven of the Pharisees is that the Pharisees said you could not heal in the synagogue on the sabbath and to come back another day. They thought they had the correct interpretation of scriptures concerning the rule of the sabbath but they were wrong. Telling a woman she cannot preach the Word in a church building because she is a woman should cause a light to come one that says "I probably am not interpreting that scripture correctly" but people have been hammered with the bad interpretation for so long they are AFRAID to reconsider for fear of breaking some LAW that they really cannot explain and deep down inside wish was not there.

Fortunately those women who are called to preach and teach are doing so and multitudes are being saved and translated into the kingdom of light around the world and God is empowering them with His Holy Spirit to do so and He is well pleased and will reward them soon.
It is easy to see the error in interpretations when you hear someone say these women are sinning and that God is not pleased. Leaven of Pharisees. Beware of it.

Scribe · Jun 12, 2020

tourist said:

If we understand "12 I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" as applying to what was just said "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection " in context of the wife and the husband. We don't have to decided whether we have to obey what Paul said as his own opinion but can take that as command from the Holy Ghost that is not optional. Only when one interprets as Pulpit Ministry does one wonder if they can ignore it for this day. What he intended was not opitional. But he wasn't talking about Pulpit ministry.

Locoponydirtman · Jun 13, 2020

Read proverbs 31.
The letter to Timothy is about order in the church. You should probably do an exhaustive study of Romans and then Acts.
Women can and do teach, through out the Bible there are many examples.
You have a lot to learn so I recommend you study a lot before attempting to teach.
You need a good Christian mentor, which will be hard to find. I still haven't found one. So I guess good luck.

Corban · Jun 13, 2020

Dino246 said:

As you wish. Go well and God bless.

Corban · Jun 13, 2020

I think that half the problem with matter of 1st Timothy 2:11-15 is that Bible students do not precisely define the various functions in the Church. In Ephesians Chapter 4 it is clearly stated why God gave various gifts. Verses 7 to 14 read;

7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
...
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Just to be clear, I'm going to use the word "Ekklesia" instead of "Church" because for some the Church is a building. "Ekklesia" means "the gathering of the called ones". The Body of Christ is so designed that it "gather" in a house, a cathedral and/or a snow covered slope in Siberia. It is a living organism, not an organization. Pulpits, fancy clothing by priests and accustic bands are unknown to New Testament scripture. The Ekklesia is likened in Hebrews, not to the Temple, but to a the Tabernacle - a moving, traveling House of God that can be hidden, move silently, break up and reform somewhere else, and do it silently. It is designed to live and function in enemy territory - the world and its hate of Jesus.

It is at once evident that the first aim of the gifts is to build Christ's Body. This building is two-fold. For the Body of Christ we need numbers. That is the work of the evangelist first, and the preaching of the gospel by all believers. It is a work outside the Ekklesia. But once a man or woman becomes a believer the other gifts come into play. The most authoritative gift is the OFFICE of Apostle. His job is to set forth God's plan, or, to lay the foundations of what God is about to build. Once this work is done, the Apostle moves to the next location to repeat it, and so the Local Churches are grounded. We see the authority of an Apostle in various scriptures where believers lost their lives - notably Ananias and Sapphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, the saints who ate the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11, and Alexander the coppersmith.

Once a Local Church is grounded, the next most important thing is order. Nothing can bear fruit in chaos and anarchy, so God requires Elders or Overseers. Their job is create an environment where the rst of the gifted ones may operate. For this, God gives authority. This authority is not given to have power over the lives of the saints. He is not there to decide what car you buy or who you marry. His function is strictly the maintenance of ORDER in the Assembly.

Once that is established, the saints need to be INFORMED of God's Word. This is the job of the Teacher. He is schooled in the Word and if he does his job correctly, the saints "come to the unity of the faith". "THE FAITH" is what we believe doctrinally, and if it is taught with sustained logical argument, the Holy Spirit will enlighten the saints and the result will be that they are NOT "tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine". The enemy of this is "False Teachers" who with "cunning craftiness, lie in wait to deceive". Now, since it is by teaching that we come to, "... the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ," and deception is the enemy of "THE unity of the faith", the setting forth of doctrine is not given to the women, since Eve, the perfect woman before the fall, was DECEIVED.

The next most important thing is that God may speak His instant word. For this He uses the prophet. A New Testament prophet is defined in 1st Corinthians 14:3: "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." The Bible is the solid, immoveable foundation of God's unchanging Words. But situations arise day by day that are not covered by the Bible. Adultery is condemned in the Bible, but it does not point out the adulterers. A Local Church might be blissfully unaware that one of their Elders is having an affair. So God gives the prophet the information, and the prophet can stand up in the Assembly and say; "God sees adultery in this Assembly. Mend your ways!" The Elder will immediately know who the prophets is speaking about and either act or ignore the prophecy. A week later the prophet will stand up in the Assembly and say; "God has seen your sin and your defiance. Mend your ways or there will be consequences!" But the Elder is too smitten and loves himself and his flesh. He continues and lo, a month later he is attacked by the husband of the woman he was having an affair with, and crippled. God spoke His instant word. The prophet "exhorted" the guilty Elder so that he could be "built up" in obedience and "comforted" him that God would overlook the adultery if he stopped. This gift is the chief gift for the Church Assembly and God desires that we covet it (1st Cor.14:1). This gift is given to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

The other gifts like Knowledge, Discernment, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles, Hospitality etc are ALL OPEN TO BOTH GENDERS. It is only Apostle, Elder and/or Teacher, gifts that carry authority, that Christ, Head of the Church, gives to MEN. The wording is not complicated or obscure. It is as plain and clear as "Thou shalt not murder". It has no ambiguity and does not have to be interpreted. It is a direct command from the Holy Spirit.

11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

The diligent sister who loves the Lord will accept His choice and Leadership. She will pray for the other gifts especially that she may prophesy. Christ has designed His Ekklesia and ordained how it will work. Those who love the Lord have no trouble with His direct statements.

jaybo · Jun 13, 2020

Corban said:

I think that half the problem with matter of 1st Timothy 2:11-15 is that Bible students do not precisely define the various functions in the Church. In Ephesians Chapter 4 it is clearly stated why God gave various gifts. Verses 7 to 14 read;

7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
...
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Just to be clear, I'm going to use the word "Ekklesia" instead of "Church" because for some the Church is a building. "Ekklesia" means "the gathering of the called ones". The Body of Christ is so designed that it "gather" in a house, a cathedral and/or a snow covered slope in Siberia. It is a living organism, not an organization. Pulpits, fancy clothing by priests and accustic bands are unknown to New Testament scripture. The Ekklesia is likened in Hebrews, not to the Temple, but to a the Tabernacle - a moving, traveling House of God that can be hidden, move silently, break up and reform somewhere else, and do it silently. It is designed to live and function in enemy territory - the world and its hate of Jesus.

It is at once evident that the first aim of the gifts is to build Christ's Body. This building is two-fold. For the Body of Christ we need numbers. That is the work of the evangelist first, and the preaching of the gospel by all believers. It is a work outside the Ekklesia. But once a man or woman becomes a believer the other gifts come into play. The most authoritative gift is the OFFICE of Apostle. His job is to set forth God's plan, or, to lay the foundations of what God is about to build. Once this work is done, the Apostle moves to the next location to repeat it, and so the Local Churches are grounded. We see the authority of an Apostle in various scriptures where believers lost their lives - notably Ananias and Sapphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, the saints who ate the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11, and Alexander the coppersmith.

Once a Local Church is grounded, the next most important thing is order. Nothing can bear fruit in chaos and anarchy, so God requires Elders or Overseers. Their job is create an environment where the rst of the gifted ones may operate. For this, God gives authority. This authority is not given to have power over the lives of the saints. He is not there to decide what car you buy or who you marry. His function is strictly the maintenance of ORDER in the Assembly.

Once that is established, the saints need to be INFORMED of God's Word. This is the job of the Teacher. He is schooled in the Word and if he does his job correctly, the saints "come to the unity of the faith". "THE FAITH" is what we believe doctrinally, and if it is taught with sustained logical argument, the Holy Spirit will enlighten the saints and the result will be that they are NOT "tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine". The enemy of this is "False Teachers" who with "cunning craftiness, lie in wait to deceive". Now, since it is by teaching that we come to, "... the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ," and deception is the enemy of "THE unity of the faith", the setting forth of doctrine is not given to the women, since Eve, the perfect woman before the fall, was DECEIVED.

The next most important thing is that God may speak His instant word. For this He uses the prophet. A New Testament prophet is defined in 1st Corinthians 14:3: "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." The Bible is the solid, immoveable foundation of God's unchanging Words. But situations arise day by day that are not covered by the Bible. Adultery is condemned in the Bible, but it does not point out the adulterers. A Local Church might be blissfully unaware that one of their Elders is having an affair. So God gives the prophet the information, and the prophet can stand up in the Assembly and say; "God sees adultery in this Assembly. Mend your ways!" The Elder will immediately know who the prophets is speaking about and either act or ignore the prophecy. A week later the prophet will stand up in the Assembly and say; "God has seen your sin and your defiance. Mend your ways or there will be consequences!" But the Elder is too smitten and loves himself and his flesh. He continues and lo, a month later he is attacked by the husband of the woman he was having an affair with, and crippled. God spoke His instant word. The prophet "exhorted" the guilty Elder so that he could be "built up" in obedience and "comforted" him that God would overlook the adultery if he stopped. This gift is the chief gift for the Church Assembly and God desires that we covet it (1st Cor.14:1). This gift is given to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

The other gifts like Knowledge, Discernment, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles, Hospitality etc are ALL OPEN TO BOTH GENDERS. It is only Apostle, Elder and/or Teacher, gifts that carry authority, that Christ, Head of the Church, gives to MEN. The wording is not complicated or obscure. It is as plain and clear as "Thou shalt not murder". It has no ambiguity and does not have to be interpreted. It is a direct command from the Holy Spirit.

11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

The diligent sister who loves the Lord will accept His choice and Leadership. She will pray for the other gifts especially that she may prophesy. Christ has designed His Ekklesia and ordained how it will work. Those who love the Lord have no trouble with His direct statements.

Aside from your implying that your formulaic discourse is equivalent to the Lord's direct statements, your taking a few lines from Paul's letter to Timothy to limit the role of women in church is not appropriate. Those verses are often used to "put women in their place". => A few verses out of context are insufficient to establish doctrine. <= In several cases, women had churches in their homes in the NT era and were otherwise instrumental in spreading the gospel. Also, there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus.

Those who love the Lord have no trouble with the full message of Scripture.

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

jaybo said:

I agree with some of your interpretations but you seem a little imaginative in your description of prophesy and also seem to be suggesting that women are excluded from this gift. However the foundational scripture on the subject empasized that women are inlcuded
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:4

Also prophsesying is declaring the wonderful works of God in the context of Acts 2 and speaking in tongues. Peter point to that and said it was fulfilling the prophecy that women would prophesy.

We see many examples of prophesy in the New Testament. Forth telling something that is coming, declaring the wonderful works of God, exposing what is in mans heart, comfort, and exhortation, and in my opinion that special kind of preaching that you can tell is not just a 3 point sermon carefully following all the lessons taught in homiletics but a word from God for the moment. You know it when you hear it.

Corban · Jun 13, 2020

jaybo said:

Your objection without entering into one argument is noted. I am teachable. Pray, give a sound exegesis on the context and exact words of the passage in question.

And it is no good to pit one verse against another. This just makes the Bible untrustworthy and shakes the faith of the young reader. Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 must be in harmony with 1st Timothy 2:12 - not used to refute it.

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 13, 2020

Here's how I've understood the following verses:

"Therefore it says: "Having ascended on high, He led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men [G444-mankind - anthropois]" - Eph4:8.

The "gifts" that He "gave" to G444 [mankind] were those persons He calls (variously) in verse 11 - "11 And He gave some indeed to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers [/or pastors-teachers], "... Those are the "gifts" themselves (meaning, these persons are the "gifts" given... to G444-mankind- anthropois)

... which is a separate issue as to "who" those persons are (and the gender question).

jaybo · Jun 13, 2020

Scribe said:

I agree with some of your interpretations but you seem a little imaginative in your description of prophesy and also seem to be suggesting that women are excluded from this gift. However the foundational scripture on the subject empasized that women are inlcuded
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:4

Also prophsesying is declaring the wonderful works of God in the context of Acts 2 and speaking in tongues. Peter point to that and said it was fulfilling the prophecy that women would prophesy.

We see many examples of prophesy in the New Testament. Forth telling something that is coming, declaring the wonderful works of God, exposing what is in mans heart, comfort, and exhortation, and in my opinion that special kind of preaching that you can tell is not just a 3 point sermon carefully following all the lessons taught in homiletics but a word from God for the moment. You know it when you hear it.

I didn't discuss prophecy in my post that you replied to. For what it's worth, I believe that anyone, male or female, can have the gift of prophecy.

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

jaybo said:

Sorry, that was meant for Corban.

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

Corban said:

I think that half the problem with matter of 1st Timothy 2:11-15 is that Bible students do not precisely define the various functions in the Church. In Ephesians Chapter 4 it is clearly stated why God gave various gifts. Verses 7 to 14 read;

7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
...
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Just to be clear, I'm going to use the word "Ekklesia" instead of "Church" because for some the Church is a building. "Ekklesia" means "the gathering of the called ones". The Body of Christ is so designed that it "gather" in a house, a cathedral and/or a snow covered slope in Siberia. It is a living organism, not an organization. Pulpits, fancy clothing by priests and accustic bands are unknown to New Testament scripture. The Ekklesia is likened in Hebrews, not to the Temple, but to a the Tabernacle - a moving, traveling House of God that can be hidden, move silently, break up and reform somewhere else, and do it silently. It is designed to live and function in enemy territory - the world and its hate of Jesus.

It is at once evident that the first aim of the gifts is to build Christ's Body. This building is two-fold. For the Body of Christ we need numbers. That is the work of the evangelist first, and the preaching of the gospel by all believers. It is a work outside the Ekklesia. But once a man or woman becomes a believer the other gifts come into play. The most authoritative gift is the OFFICE of Apostle. His job is to set forth God's plan, or, to lay the foundations of what God is about to build. Once this work is done, the Apostle moves to the next location to repeat it, and so the Local Churches are grounded. We see the authority of an Apostle in various scriptures where believers lost their lives - notably Ananias and Sapphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, the saints who ate the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11, and Alexander the coppersmith.

Once a Local Church is grounded, the next most important thing is order. Nothing can bear fruit in chaos and anarchy, so God requires Elders or Overseers. Their job is create an environment where the rst of the gifted ones may operate. For this, God gives authority. This authority is not given to have power over the lives of the saints. He is not there to decide what car you buy or who you marry. His function is strictly the maintenance of ORDER in the Assembly.

Once that is established, the saints need to be INFORMED of God's Word. This is the job of the Teacher. He is schooled in the Word and if he does his job correctly, the saints "come to the unity of the faith". "THE FAITH" is what we believe doctrinally, and if it is taught with sustained logical argument, the Holy Spirit will enlighten the saints and the result will be that they are NOT "tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine". The enemy of this is "False Teachers" who with "cunning craftiness, lie in wait to deceive". Now, since it is by teaching that we come to, "... the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ," and deception is the enemy of "THE unity of the faith", the setting forth of doctrine is not given to the women, since Eve, the perfect woman before the fall, was DECEIVED.

The next most important thing is that God may speak His instant word. For this He uses the prophet. A New Testament prophet is defined in 1st Corinthians 14:3: "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." The Bible is the solid, immoveable foundation of God's unchanging Words. But situations arise day by day that are not covered by the Bible. Adultery is condemned in the Bible, but it does not point out the adulterers. A Local Church might be blissfully unaware that one of their Elders is having an affair. So God gives the prophet the information, and the prophet can stand up in the Assembly and say; "God sees adultery in this Assembly. Mend your ways!" The Elder will immediately know who the prophets is speaking about and either act or ignore the prophecy. A week later the prophet will stand up in the Assembly and say; "God has seen your sin and your defiance. Mend your ways or there will be consequences!" But the Elder is too smitten and loves himself and his flesh. He continues and lo, a month later he is attacked by the husband of the woman he was having an affair with, and crippled. God spoke His instant word. The prophet "exhorted" the guilty Elder so that he could be "built up" in obedience and "comforted" him that God would overlook the adultery if he stopped. This gift is the chief gift for the Church Assembly and God desires that we covet it (1st Cor.14:1). This gift is given to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

The other gifts like Knowledge, Discernment, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Miracles, Hospitality etc are ALL OPEN TO BOTH GENDERS. It is only Apostle, Elder and/or Teacher, gifts that carry authority, that Christ, Head of the Church, gives to MEN. The wording is not complicated or obscure. It is as plain and clear as "Thou shalt not murder". It has no ambiguity and does not have to be interpreted. It is a direct command from the Holy Spirit.

11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

The diligent sister who loves the Lord will accept His choice and Leadership. She will pray for the other gifts especially that she may prophesy. Christ has designed His Ekklesia and ordained how it will work. Those who love the Lord have no trouble with His direct statements.

I agree with some of your interpretations but you seem a little imaginative in your description of prophesy and also seem to be suggesting that women are excluded from this gift. However the foundational scripture on the subject empasized that women are inlcuded
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:4

Also prophsesying is declaring the wonderful works of God in the context of Acts 2 and speaking in tongues. Peter point to that and said it was fulfilling the prophecy that women would prophesy.

We see many examples of prophesy in the New Testament. Forth telling something that is coming, declaring the wonderful works of God, exposing what is in mans heart, comfort, and exhortation, and in my opinion that special kind of preaching that you can tell is not just a 3 point sermon carefully following all the lessons taught in homiletics but a word from God for the moment. You know it when you hear it.

TheDivineWatermark · Jun 13, 2020

Scribe said:

I'll have to read his post again, but I thought he was saying that particular gift was applicable to both...

ETA: what do you think he's saying here:

acts5_29 · Jun 13, 2020

I don't know what to think about women's role in general in the Bible, but one thing I do see frequently taken out of context:

Paul's use of the word diakonos to refer to Phoebe--or "deaconess". People point to that and say that yes, women ordination has Biblical support. The problem is, word the translates "servant", or "servant of Christ". Yes--of course women can prophesy, and serve Christ. But the word "deacon" has since taken on different meaning in the Church, where today we view a deacon as more of a leader than a servant. Yes, there is that whole bit about Christian servants should be leaders, leaders should be servants.... But there is a false equivocation of the word "deacon" there.

Personally, I think we should be really careful not to quench the Holy Spirit. If the gifting is there and the willingness is there, we should not turn them away just because they are female. I find it unlikely that a woman would be gifted for something which not was God's design.

Pragmatically, take China: we are very short-staffed of men to preach. They have to work. It's the women who have the free time to serve in church capacities. If China is to be reached, then we need the women.

Blain · Jun 13, 2020

Scribe said:

Thanks for the topic. I think I can help. I understood these scriptures when I first read them. However later I heard other people, even Bible scholars and commentaries interpret them differently that what I understood. I was forced to examine the scriptures closely to see if I was making a mistake or if others were. My goal is to know the correct God intended interpretation of 1 Tim 2:12. This is what I have discovered so far:

1) It was always God's plan to pour out His Spirit on all flesh and empower women and men both for the purpose of ministry and proclamation of the word of God under the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit with signs following.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

This outpouring he is speaking about was not salvation, the 120 in the upper room were already saved by faith in Christ. This was for the purpose of making them witnesses, to go and preach to all nations.
In that context he emphasizes that he puts no difference between male and female in this empowering gifts for ministry with an emphasis on the vocal gifts to make his point, tongues and prophesying.

3) To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter is quoting Paul

1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation (looking at all the other scriptures where Paul and others spoke about the wife submitting to the husband out of honor and respect) we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)

We are dealing with centuries of bad hermeneutics on this subject. There is no text that says a woman cannot preach the word of God. God is still pouring out His Spirit on women to prophesy and to preach. This is God's intention. Do not let bad hermeneutics keep you from obeying God's call to prophesy, preach, teach and spread the gospel in any way God wants to use you whatsoever.

It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry (as you will often hear people state) when he said that a women should not teach, or usurp authority over a man. Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known. We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.

Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions.

The reason it does not sit well with you is because it is bad hermeneutics and not the heart of God. It would be like the Pharisees saying you cannot heal on the sabbath, come back another day because they thought they had the scripture interpreted correctly but they did not. To say that God does not want women to preach does not sit well with you because it is not in line with the revealed heart and intention of God that he wants to pour his Spirit on women for prophetic ministry also. As a matter of fact it is recorded from other writers during the 1st century that the women involved in ministry in the church surprised those that spoke about the Christians in the first century. They noticed the liberty of the women which was different than both Judaism or Gentiles were used to seeing.

Search for yourself and try and find the passage that says a woman cannot preach the word in church buildings or when a man is present. It is not there. It has been inserted by people for so long they have everyone convinced that the bible says that and it does not. Now they might be convinced that the phrase "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." means that a woman cannot preach the bible or preach in a church or preach when a man is in the room, or a myriad of other interpretations but as you can see with your own eyes the text says none of those things.

The leaven of the Pharisees keeps people in bondage to FEAR of violating some RULE here based on bad hermeneutics. What I mean by the leaven of the Pharisees is that the Pharisees said you could not heal in the synagogue on the sabbath and to come back another day. They thought they had the correct interpretation of scriptures concerning the rule of the sabbath but they were wrong. Telling a woman she cannot preach the Word in a church building because she is a woman should cause a light to come one that says "I probably am not interpreting that scripture correctly" but people have been hammered with the bad interpretation for so long they are AFRAID to reconsider for fear of breaking some LAW that they really cannot explain and deep down inside wish was not there.

Fortunately those women who are called to preach and teach are doing so and multitudes are being saved and translated into the kingdom of light around the world and God is empowering them with His Holy Spirit to do so and He is well pleased and will reward them soon.
It is easy to see the error in interpretations when you hear someone say these women are sinning and that God is not pleased. Leaven of Pharisees. Beware of it.

NOV25 · Jun 13, 2020

ElizabethAdams said:

I would say don’t over complicate it for now little sister, get in where you fit in. You’re young, so share what you’ve learned so far with those who are coming behind you.

Also, be careful on this site, it’s a messy place if you haven’t noticed already.

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

I stand corrected.

Benadam · Jun 14, 2020

You know, we're all still hunter gatherers down deep inside. That's what satisfies.

What does the Bible mean about the role of women?

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