What does the Law REALLY say?

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Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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If we consider Jesus Christ's teachings, declarations, the
He came not to condemn rather to forgive, and that
He desires mercy and not sacrifice, we will understand how the law is to be followed, but it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings. I have posted on the how, why and what several times in this thread alone, not to mention many other threads. Mercy is Christ's choice for all who want mercy.
And all are granted through faith in him by grace alone.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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If we consider Jesus Christ's teachings, declarations, the He came not to condemn rather to forgive, and that He desires mercy and not sacrifice, we will understand how the law is to be followed, but it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings. I have posted on the how, why and what several times in this thread alone, not to mention many other threads. Mercy is Christ's choice for all who want mercy.
when did the gentile get law of moses . again you hve been asked,
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
about 30ad pentecost.

And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.
what law led a gentile to jesus christ.
around (48ad)
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.",




with acts 15, what law was he to repent of.(48 ad)



4 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.




10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.



Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles

18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.








someware down here 70 ad no temple of stone required for to follow the full law.

history of the old testament is for a jewish people. and yes connects to the new covenant, but not by law.
believing in jesus christ.(They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,

but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
 
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O

oldthennew

Guest
personally, we have always had a problem with the 'literal' eye-for-eye, and tooth-for-tooth interpretation.
especially since it is stated in Torah to not even hold a grudge against a brother.

also, we all know that the Lord says, 'vengeance is Mine'.

since God is LOVE, we both had a hard time accepting that our Father would ask us to
blind and mutilate another for reciprocation, especially in the context of the scripture -
Ex.21:22-28. - it speaks all about harm, that has not been done on purpose.

we did a little research on this interesting and controversial subject.

wiki-cut&paste.

Since there is no form of punishment in the Torah that calls for the maiming of an offender, there is no case where a conspiratorial false witness could possibly be punished by the court injuring to his eye, tooth, hand, or foot. There is one case where the Torah states "…and you shall cut off her hand…"[SUP][19][/SUP] The sages of the Talmud understood the literal meaning of this verse as referring to a case where the woman is attacking a man in potentially lethal manner. This verse teaches that, although one must intervene to save the victim, one may not kill a lethal attacker if it is possible to neutralize that attacker through non-lethal injury.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP][SUP][22][/SUP] Regardless, there is no verse that even appears to mandate injury to the eye, tooth, or foot.
The ideal of vengeance for the sake of assuaging the distress of the victim plays no role in the Torah's conception of court justice, as victims are cautioned against even hating or bearing a grudge against those who have harmed them. The Torah makes no distinction between whether the potential object of hatred or a grudge has been brought to justice, and all people are taught to love their fellow human beings.[SUP][25][/SUP]
Since time immemorial many Hebrew sages have insisted that the intent of the words of verses 19-20 were NOT that if a man fractured another man’s arm, that the perpetrator’s arm should in turn be fractured. Nor that if a man knocked a tooth out of another man’s head that the one who did it should have his own tooth knocked out (and their position certainly seems to have been validated by none other than Yeshua of Nazareth). Rather this was a call for proportional punishment; that the punishment should not be greater than the crime. In fact there is NO evidence that even if God HAD intended that the same physical damage that was done by an assailant should be done back to him that the Hebrews EVER, at any time, regularly practiced this principle in that way. Might some have done this in a fit of rage, vigilante style? Without doubt.

In Hebrew, the literal meaning of the verse is "an eye instead of an eye" and not "for an eye." This implies that something must be given in place of the lost eye which would not be achieved by putting out the eye of the perpetrator. (See Rabbi Sampson Rafael Hirsch on Exodus 21:27)

by the way yall, the Mr. has a 'full-set-of-dentures', therefore, he can knock his
brother's tooth out and not give a thought about losing one of his long lost ones!
we of course say this in humor, but the point really is -
there are no loop-holes in God's Law.

 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Many who come into this thread and forum believe grace is an excuse not to strive to be perfect.

Our Father is perfect, thus all the laws, commandments, on good behavior are nothing less nor more than He does Himself, thus He tells us to be perfect.

We, being His children, strive to be perfect according to His own yardstick knowing we will never be perfect in this age, yet, being in grace, when we are not perfect as is our Father, we are counted as innocent. This too is no reason nor excuse to throw away the good laws, which many here say we may. This is a lie, and it can lead the innocent astray from the love of God.

God is perfect, and He tells us to be perfect. He has shown the Way in Jesus to be obedient with no fear of our imperfections, that is sin, breaking the commandments. Our Father is perfect, and we live in Christ regarded as already perfect, yet common sense and love dictate we should work to be as is our Father, perfect. He will finish that work He began in us on His day. Meanwhile we really are expected as being saved by the Blood of His Lamb, to also be obedient. This includes all of God's commandments from Genesis through Revelation inclusive, amen.

Mat 5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Mat 5:38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41

This is an interesting verse along with turning the other cheek. Many think that this means to have a passive response by the believer toward wicked behavior. It's not. Too bad that some are told not to look into the law and live within the liberty thereof. During Biblical times, many people used their cloke as a bed, and would offer it as a pledge as a token of living up to their word or agreement. The cloke was often used as a confirmation of a covenant between 2 people.

Exodus 22:26-27
26 If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge , thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:
27 For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep ? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear ; for I am gracious.

Deuteronomy 24:10-13
10 When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge.
11 Thou shalt stand abroad, and the man to whom thou dost lend shall bring out the pledge abroad unto thee.
12 And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge:
13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.

By giving up the cloke, the person who took the coat beforehand would be in jeopardy of punishment via the law by taking the cloke also. He would be forced to return the belongings or face punishment. God is a God of equity.

Also in verse 39, turning the other check forces the slapper to hit with his open hand, putting him on the same level of status as the one being slapped according to the traditions of that day. By turning the other cheek, the one slapping would be noticed of an equal status as the one he slapped.

The eye for eye thing (verse 38) was to let a servant go free if the owner abused that servant and he lost his eye because of a beating. The owner would then lose his investment he had in that servant for the eye's sake. The same goes for a loss of a limb.

Exodus 21:24-27
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

When Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, He wasn't changing the original principles of His Father's law given to Moses. "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe" is figurative speech that describes equity in principle. It is a show of God's grace to mankind instructing His own on how to govern, and achieving peace and fairness to all.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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In Hebrew, the literal meaning of the verse is "an eye instead of an eye" and not "for an eye." This implies that something must be given in place of the lost eye which would not be achieved by putting out the eye of the perpetrator. (See Rabbi Sampson Rafael Hirsch
on Exodus 21:27)
Ex 21:27 has nothing to do with the law of retaliation.

Read the law of retaliation in Ex 21:23-25.
 

Elin

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Many who come into this thread and forum believe grace is an excuse not to strive to be perfect.
That would be more truthfully phrased:

I misunderstand them to believe grace is an excuse not to be perfect.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Exodus 21:24-25
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

When Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, He
wasn't changing the original principles of His Father's law given to Moses. "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe" is figurative speech that describes equity in principle.
The NT is clear.

As Lawgiver, Jesus changed the law of retaliation in Ex 21:24-25
to a law of non-retaliation.

Foolish human rationalization can't change that.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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If we consider Jesus Christ's teachings, declarations, the He came not to condemn rather to forgive, and that He desires mercy and not sacrifice, we will understand how the law is to be followed, but it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings. I have posted on the how, why and what several times in this thread alone, not to mention many other threads. Mercy is Christ's choice for all who want mercy.
"...it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings." ... yes! and I would add that it takes the spirit, also... the spirit that guides Christians into all truth...
 
Mar 4, 2013
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The NT is clear.

As Lawgiver, Jesus changed the law of retaliation in Ex 21:24-25
to a law of non-retaliation.

Foolish human rationalization can't change that.
Maybe you believe that heaven and earth are gone the same as you desire the law to be gone.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
You don't believe this verse that Jesus said do you?

Ex 21:24-25 is not retaliation, it is justice. Add verses 26 and 27 to see the truth.

26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
 
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JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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Absolutely, without the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, nothing is learned. Thank you for adding this much essential understanding and learning.


"...it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings." ... yes! and I would add that it takes the spirit, also... the spirit that guides Christians into all truth...
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Absolutely, without the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, nothing is learned. Thank you for adding this much essential understanding and learning.
you're most welcome! and of course, not just the confirmation, the leading and guiding of the spirit is essential, too...
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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If we consider Jesus Christ's teachings, declarations, the
He came not to condemn rather to forgive,
Jesus did not say that he came to forgive the world.
He said he came to save the world.

Let's not alter the word of God to suit our own liking.

and that He desires mercy and not sacrifice,
Jesus is quoting Hos 6:6.

Mercy = chesed - also means right conduct, loyalty to the Lord,

meaning sacrifice apart from faithfulness is wholly unacceptable to God.

When Jesus quotes Hos 6:6 in Mt 9:13, in response to being questioned about eating at the house of a sinner, he is telling them that eating with publicans and sinners was in mercy to sinners.

Saving men through preaching the gospel trumps the ceremonial law of Moses.

And when he quotes Hos 6:6 in Mt 12:7, in response to the Pharisees complaint
about doing what was unlawful on the Sabbath, he is telling them that
mercy to the bodies of hungry men overrides ceremonial law.

Preservation of innocent human life trumps all moral law.

In both cases, Jesus claims the authority of God with respect to interpretation of the Law.

But in neither case is he saying that sacrifice itself does not please God.

we will understand how the law is to be followed, but it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings
We will understand that only he has the authority of God to change the Law,
and give us new law to follow.

We will understand that he does not give us authority to do so.


but it takes having learned what He teaches to understand these sayings.
We will understand that only he has the authority to change the law, and give new law for us to obey.

Mercy is Christ's choice for all who want mercy.
Mercy is God's choice only for those who believe in his Son.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Maybe you believe that heaven and earth are gone the same as you desire the law to be gone.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
You don't believe this verse that Jesus said do you?

Ex 21:24-25 is not retaliation, it is justice. Add verses 26 and 27 to see the truth.

26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
The law of retaliation is not changed in vv.26-27, the ante is upped.

Rather than the servant taking the eye or the tooth of his master in legal retaliation,
the servant gets to go free and is a slave no more.

That's a whole lot better deal for the servant than taking a eye or a tooth he couldn't use anyway.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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The law of retaliation is not changed in vv.26-27, the ante is upped.

Rather than the servant taking the eye or the tooth of his master in legal retaliation,
the servant gets to go free and is a slave no more.

That's a whole lot better deal for the servant than taking a eye or a tooth he couldn't use anyway.
The law was never the way you have just explained.
Ex 21:26-27
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.


The more I talk with you the more I realize that you don't really know what the original truth is.
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
The more I talk with you the more I realize that you don't know.
Aptly said and typical, of the king of Christian cohesiveness, damning others as divisive,

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

Cohesive = agree with me.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
The law of retaliation is not changed in vv.26-27, the ante is upped.

Rather than the servant taking the eye or the tooth of his master in legal retaliation,
the servant gets to go free and is a slave no more.


That's a whole lot better deal for the servant than taking a eye or a tooth he couldn't use anyway.
The law was never the way you have just explained.
Ex 21:26-27
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

The law of retaliation is given in Ex 21:23-25.

See it again in Dt 19:21.


The more I talk with you the more I realize that you don't really know what the original truth is.
The text speaks for itself.
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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Aptly said and typical, of the king of Christian cohesiveness, damning others as divisive,

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

Cohesive = agree with me.
I see that you followed me here also. Like I said to you on another post, Jesus didn't go looking for controversy, it always came to Him from the hypocrites trying to accuse Him of doing things against what they wanted to hear. If the show fits wear it. LOL:p
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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I see that you followed me here also. Like I said to you on another post, Jesus didn't go looking for controversy, it always came to Him from the hypocrites trying to accuse Him of doing things against what they wanted to hear. If the show fits wear it. LOL:p
Is some one or two paranoid?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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The law of retaliation is given in Ex 21:23-25.

See it again in Dt 19:21.


The text speaks for itself.
I see
You are dividing verses 23 through 25 from verses 26 and 27. That's why I insinuated on another post that your understanding is severely lacking. I feel sorry for that. I hope some day that you attain wisdom in the truth.

Exodus 21:20-27
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished .
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished : for he is his money.
22 If men strive , and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished , according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish ; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

This above scripture is setting a precedence of equity to all.

Deuteronomy 19:9-13
9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:
10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. 11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die , and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die .
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

And yes, by all means the text speaks for itself. Like I said, I feel sorry for you that you cannot get it.