What God Uses Tongues For

[zone]

Oh, I think I'm getting the interpretation. Oh, my, is this God or is this me.....Oh, do I dare say it? [I used to know a guy who did that kind of thing as a monologue. He's the one who introduced me and my wife.] Interpretation: one is good for you (like orange or satrawberry, because it's fruit), the other is comfort food (chocolate or cream). Just like God ministers to our intelligence (which is good for us) and to our emotion (which feels good). And like a good waffle cone, a foundation in Jesus holds the flavors long enough so the world can get a lick.

LOL Ken!...

 

[Enow]

See if Rom. 8:26-27 works for you. This is the method I have seen operative.

Why would the Spirit need to say anything if God the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer?

Matthew 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Let's look at how the Spirit really make these intercessions in the King James Bible to further your study.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

May Jesus help you to see that verse 27 is the point of verse 26. The Son, Jesus Christ, is the only Mediator between God & man signified as the man Christ Jesus in 1 Timothy 2:5. Verse 27 is testifying of the Son as searching our hearts as Hebrews 4:12-16 says also... and knows the mind of the Spirit because he makes intercessions in according to the will of God of being the only mediator between God and man.

The Son knowing the mind of the Spirit is the point of verse 27 in explaining verse 26 on why "itself" was used because elsewhere in the book of Romans, "he" & "him" has been used in reference to the Holy Spirit so why now with "itself"? It is because the Holy Spirit is not actually making these intercessions directly Himself for which "itself" is being used because verse 27 is teatifying that the Son knows the mind of the Spirit.

And because the Son knows the mind of the Spirit, these intercessions are being made with groanings which cannot be uttered ... meaning no sound at all.

So ALL believers can take comfort in this knowledge of the truth because they do not need tongues as a prayer language for this type of intercessions to be made by the Holy Spirit because the Son of God searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit as He is the actual One making these intercessions. That is keeping in line with the scripture of 1 Timothy 2:5 of the man Christ Jesus being the only Mediator beotween God & man as being at that throne of grace and why God the Father would know what things we have need of before we ask anything in prayer.

Modern Bibles have erred by switching out "itself" with "Himself" as if the Holy Spirit actually makes these intercessions Himself and some of those modern Bibles imply that sounds are being made in doing so. Then they commit a grammatical error by switching out the "he" in verse 27 with "the Spirit", thus glossing over the testimony of the "he" of the third person in searching our hearts & knowing the mind of the Spirit. How can the "he" be "the Spirit" in knowing the mind of the Spirit? So the grammatical error is given in some modern Bibles but all modern Bibles are in error for switching out "itself" with "Himself" in verse 26 because they are ignoring verse 27 as testifying of the Son.

So no need for tongues to be used as a prayer language when the Son knows the mind of the Spirit as the Son makes intercession for the saints in according to the will of God of Him being the only Mediator between God & man, the man Christ Jesus.

 

[kenisyes]

Why would the Spirit need to say anything if God the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer?

why "itself" was used because elsewhere in the book of Romans, "he" & "him" has been used in reference to the Holy Spirit so why now with "itself"?

And because the Son knows the mind of the Spirit, these intercessions are being made with groanings which cannot be uttered ... meaning no sound at all.

Congratulations. You have just proven we do not need to pray.

The real reason is that "Spirit" is neuter in Greek. When the referent autos occurred, they kept it as it is in Greek, neuter.

Then why does the Greek word groaning mean there is a sound? Laleo also means "cannot be expressed in speech".

 

[Enow]

Congratulations. You have just proven we do not need to pray.

No. What has been proven is that when there are times when we do not know what to pray, even if we were in a panicky state, we can take confidence that God the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer.

We are called to pray. Nowhere did Jesus gave a promise that the Spirit will pray for us that we can stop praying because this "spirit" can do a better job than we can.

It is the will of God to know what we had prayed for so that when the Son answers the prayers, we will give thanks and glorify the Father in the Son. John 14:13-14

It would be contrary to the will of God to have the "Spirit" cut off a believer while praying with babbling nonsense.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]32 [/SUP]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Proverbs 25:[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

The real reason is that "Spirit" is neuter in Greek. When the referent autos occurred, they kept it as it is in Greek, neuter.

Then why does the Greek word groaning mean there is a sound? Laleo also means "cannot be expressed in speech".

If you use the modern Bibles, you will have error. The KJV has the correct translation of groanings which cannot be uttered, and thus leads into the next verse as to how the groanings of the Holy Spirit can be made known and that is by the Son knwoing the mind of the Spirit. That is the whole point of Romans 8:26-27 as it was testifying of the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit by which is how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer.

Therefore the Spirit does not need to pray as the Son is fulfilling the role as the only Mediator between God and man quite well by Himself but we are called to pray so that when the Son answers those prayers, we can give thanks & glorify the Father in the Son.

 

[kenisyes]

Nowhere did Jesus gave a promise that the Spirit will pray for us that we can stop praying because this "spirit" can do a better job than we can.

It is the will of God to know what we had prayed for so that when the Son answers the prayers, we will give thanks and glorify the Father in the Son. John 14:13-14
If you use the modern Bibles, you will have error.

I meant we can stop praying because God already knows what we need. Your argument proves that, even if there was no such person as the Holy Spirit.

I have had God do many things I never asked for, and I have thanked Him for. Maybe I asked for some of them in tonges. I will never know. But I still thanked God.

Okay, from now on, I will always use an ancient Bible like the KJV, instead of a modern one like the Greek Textus Receptus. Please explain where you learned your math: KVJ- 16th centurty, Greek 3rd century. I thought 3 comes before 16.

 

[Enow]

I meant we can stop praying because God already knows what we need. Your argument proves that, even if there was no such person as the Holy Spirit.

No. Because if we do not pray, where is the glory of God the Father in the Son for answering those prayers?

Matthew 6:7-8 is addressing vain repetitions and much speaking in order to get God the Father to hear us. In the same voice, if such relaying of concerns about the Father hearing us because He knows before we ask anything in prayer, then the Spirit does not need to pray through us in tongues either.... and He hasn't... ever.

I have had God do many things I never asked for, and I have thanked Him for. Maybe I asked for some of them in tonges. I will never know. But I still thanked God.

You can't thank Him if you did not know what you had prayed for that He bothered to answer that prayer.

Okay, from now on, I will always use an ancient Bible like the KJV, instead of a modern one like the Greek Textus Receptus. Please explain where you learned your math: KVJ- 16th centurty, Greek 3rd century. I thought 3 comes before 16.

The point of relying on the KJV for the actual message in Romans 8:26-27 is because all modern Bibles are failing to see the Truth of verse 27 as testifying of the Son to explain verse 26 in how the Holy Spirit was serving as a means by which these intercessions were being made with no sound at all.

Is this not a grammatical error in verse 27 below in the NIV?

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. NIV

How can the he who knows the mind of the Spirit, be the Spirit?

Then you could argue... how do we know that this "he" is the Son as the who searches our hearts?

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God isquick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. KJV

And we read on that the word of God that is the discerner of the thoughts & intents of the heart is Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14[/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. KJV

So shun vain & profane babblings as it will increase unto ungodliness and just go before that throne of grace & you pray.

 

[kenisyes]

One more time, and I'm probably going to give up trying to get you to hear what I am saying. The verse tells us that the Holy Spirit in our spirit causes our spirit to pray according to God's revelation as to what He wants us to pray for. These prayers sometimes cannot be expressed in human language. This is the origin of some of the modern tongues. The ability to search hearts is the ability to know what the spirit (your spirit, the one praying) means, and is the source of interpretation. Tongues is to groanings as interpretation is to discernment of what the spirit means.

Silent: revelation and understanding (private)
Social:
Non-syllabic: groanings and searching of hearts
Syllabic: tongues and interpretation
Verbal: prayer and amens
Action: ministry commitment and world change

These discussions are words to you, playing with Scripture. They are reality to me. Most of what you are saying is like an aeronautical engineer trying to convince a bumble bee that he is built wrong to fly. Again, I can only assume, you've been stung too often, and wish the bumble bee would believe you.

 

[zone]

tongues were known human languages.
not gibbering.

 

[tribesman]

tongues were known human languages.
not gibbering.

I am not so sure they were always very known (to the speakers and listerners). But "human" they are.

 

[kenisyes]

tongues were known human languages.
not gibbering.

Then why did many people think they were drunk? You and I don't understand Chinese, but we know what it is when we hear it.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Then why did many people think they were drunk? You and I don't understand Chinese, but we know what it is when we hear it.

If someone claimed to be hearing Fabio over there speaking Swahili (because they the listiner are native to Swahili) you might think it a little odd, when Fabio is quite clearly to your ears, speaking Italian.

 

[kenisyes]

Then they were not human languages, but sounds heard by the listeners as human languages. As tongues today sometimes are as well.

 

[zone]

If someone claimed to be hearing Fabio over there speaking Swahili (because they the listiner are native to Swahili) you might think it a little odd, when Fabio is quite clearly to your ears, speaking Italian.

NO!
not that!
anything but that.

 

[zone]

Then why did many people think they were drunk? You and I don't understand Chinese, but we know what it is when we hear it.

if you go here:

Isaiah 28
Woe to Ephraim

1Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
to the fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley—
to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine!
2See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong.
Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind,
like a driving rain and a flooding downpour,
he will throw it forcefully to the ground.
3That wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
will be trampled underfoot.
4That fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley,
will be like a fig ripe before harvest—
as soon as someone sees it and takes it in his hand,
he swallows it.
5In that day the Lord Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.
6He will be a spirit of justice
to him who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
8All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.
9“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rulea;
a little here, a little there.”
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.

"foreign lips and strange tongues" (the Babylonians in this case) were a judgment against; and a sign for jews < gentile languages.
this passages explains how God does it, and why.
when Pentecost came, the mockers who thought they were drunk had already been Judicially blinded (no ears to hear, either) by Jesus.

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

one thing the Pharisees and others who rejected Jesus (Logos) hated was the idea they would lose their high seats (kingdom); and that gentiles were to be included.

their Oral Traditions had gentiles being subhuman.
still true.

 

[PS]

I was once in a meeting thirty years ago and someone gave a prophesy in tongues and the interpreter said it was about future events, as of course prophesies are, and oh boy it sure is coming true today. :-(

.

 

[Stephen63]

For those that hear & for the little ones that He may prune to bear more fruit:

This is what God said He will be using tongues for:

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

God uses tongues to speak unto the people: not back to Himself in prayer.

The contentions raised are the misunderstanding of the other verses in that chapter about tongues. Keep that bottomline truth from those verses above to lean on Christ to discern what Paul meant in that chapter about tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Believers misuse verse 14 as a validation for praying in tongues, but they should read verse 13 to understand the point Paul was making in verse 14 & 15. Verse 13 sets the precedent for understanding verses 14 and thus in line with verse 15 for Paul's point.

Paul's point in verse 14 was that "while" Paul spoke in tongues, Paul was praying for the understanding, hoping God will raise someone to intepret what he was saying in tongues so that he may understand also and be edified and thus fruitful to him as well.

Paul was not talking about the Spirit praying in tongues when he testified in verse 14 that it was his spirit as in "my spirit" that was praying, and Paul's spirit was praying while he was speaking in tongues that someone may interpret.

That's keeping in line with what God said that tongues were for and that was for speaking unto the people.

We need to go back to the beginning to this opening thread. This statement is completely inaccurate. When looking at the context, and reading it as it is, it is clearly stating Paul's point that speaking or praying in tongues is incomplete without proper interpretation. He states simply that the person speaking should pray that he may interpret. Nothing more. Proper interpretation of Scripture is to first accept what is written literally as it is in its literal sense. When we do this, we see Paul teaching the people to do this correctly for their own understanding and edification. There are no extreme meanings here to twist out of it.

 

[Stephen63]

The reason why so many has trouble with the tongues issue is because of abuse, and misuse.
Most folks would not be afraid of it if everyone prayed like Paul said to interpret it properly, making this gift equal with prophecy. Sure, the crazies abuse it. The ignorant and unlearned misuse it. But in its proper place, it has its proper purpose. If Christians would go on unto perfection and maturity like the Scriptures say, this would not be a problem. One who is in tune with the signs of the times can understand why the gifts aren't being properly used. If the Apostle Paul had such trouble with the Corinthian church and its ignorance of these gifts, shouldn't we expect the modern church to do the same?

 

[PS]

The reason why so many has trouble with the tongues issue is because of abuse, and misuse.
Most folks would not be afraid of it if everyone prayed like Paul said to interpret it properly, making this gift equal with prophecy. Sure, the crazies abuse it. The ignorant and unlearned misuse it. But in its proper place, it has its proper purpose. If Christians would go on unto perfection and maturity like the Scriptures say, this would not be a problem. One who is in tune with the signs of the times can understand why the gifts aren't being properly used. If the Apostle Paul had such trouble with the Corinthian church and its ignorance of these gifts, shouldn't we expect the modern church to do the same?

Paul said everything had to be done in order with an interpretation and he was quite right. If there is no interpreter present then Paul said to remain silent.

In my opinion things went wrong at the Toronto Blessing and I think that was the devils work, but that is only my opinion. I went to one of those meetings in Doncaster and never again. People were falling over and someone was barking like a dog, there was no order and it was like nothing I have ever seen before in my entire life and I was brought up in a Pentecostal Church.

 

[zone]

The reason why so many has trouble with the tongues issue is because of abuse, and misuse.
Most folks would not be afraid of it if everyone prayed like Paul said to interpret it properly, making this gift equal with prophecy. Sure, the crazies abuse it. The ignorant and unlearned misuse it. But in its proper place, it has its proper purpose. If Christians would go on unto perfection and maturity like the Scriptures say, this would not be a problem. One who is in tune with the signs of the times can understand why the gifts aren't being properly used. If the Apostle Paul had such trouble with the Corinthian church and its ignorance of these gifts, shouldn't we expect the modern church to do the same?

One who is in tune with the signs of the times can understand why the gifts ceased and we got some pagan counterfeit instead.

but you'd have to believe and know there are "bad guys" who planned it all this way.
they even have *gasp* secret terms for it all...as they laugh at the church.



Question: "What is the Latter Rain Movement?"

Answer: The Latter Rain Movement is an influence within Pentecostalism which teaches that the Lord is pouring out His Spirit again, as He did at Pentecost, and using believers to prepare the world for His Second Coming. The Latter Rain Movement is anti-dispensational and amillennial, and many leaders of the movement embrace aberrant teachings.

The term “latter rain” was first used early in the history of Pentecostalism, when David Wesley Myland wrote a book called Latter Rain Songs in 1907. Three years later, Myland wrote The Latter Rain Covenant, a defense of Pentecostalism in general.

The name comes from Joel 2:23, “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for He hath given you the former rain moderately, and He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” Pentecostals interpreted the “rain” in this verse as an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The “latter rain” (the end-times outpouring) would be greater than the “former rain.”

In 1948, a “revival” broke out in Saskatchewan, Canada, and the teachings of the Latter Rain movement were clarified. Those involved in the revival were convinced that they were on the verge of a new era, one in which the Holy Spirit would demonstrate His power in a greater way than the world had ever seen. Not even the age of the apostles, they said, had witnessed such a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Latter Rain teaching is characterized by a highly typological hermeneutic. That is, the Bible is interpreted in a symbolic, extremely stylized manner. An emphasis is placed on extra-biblical revelation, such as personal prophecies, experiences, and directives straight from God. Latter Rain doctrine includes the following beliefs:

- the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, are received through the laying on of hands...

etc etc

What is the Latter Rain Movement? < click

 

[Stephen63]

One who is in tune with the signs of the times can understand why the gifts ceased and we got some pagan counterfeit instead.

but you'd have to believe and know there are "bad guys" who planned it all this way.
they even have *gasp* secret terms for it all...as they laugh at the church.



Question: "What is the Latter Rain Movement?"

Answer: The Latter Rain Movement is an influence within Pentecostalism which teaches that the Lord is pouring out His Spirit again, as He did at Pentecost, and using believers to prepare the world for His Second Coming. The Latter Rain Movement is anti-dispensational and amillennial, and many leaders of the movement embrace aberrant teachings.

The term “latter rain” was first used early in the history of Pentecostalism, when David Wesley Myland wrote a book called Latter Rain Songs in 1907. Three years later, Myland wrote The Latter Rain Covenant, a defense of Pentecostalism in general.

The name comes from Joel 2:23, “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for He hath given you the former rain moderately, and He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” Pentecostals interpreted the “rain” in this verse as an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The “latter rain” (the end-times outpouring) would be greater than the “former rain.”

In 1948, a “revival” broke out in Saskatchewan, Canada, and the teachings of the Latter Rain movement were clarified. Those involved in the revival were convinced that they were on the verge of a new era, one in which the Holy Spirit would demonstrate His power in a greater way than the world had ever seen. Not even the age of the apostles, they said, had witnessed such a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Latter Rain teaching is characterized by a highly typological hermeneutic. That is, the Bible is interpreted in a symbolic, extremely stylized manner. An emphasis is placed on extra-biblical revelation, such as personal prophecies, experiences, and directives straight from God. Latter Rain doctrine includes the following beliefs:

- the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, are received through the laying on of hands...

etc etc

What is the Latter Rain Movement? < click

There is indeed such an influence within Pentecostalism. There are many influences within Pentecostalism that are unbiblical. Absolutely correct. Just like there are many influences within the Southern Baptist, Christian, Lutheran, and other mainstream denominations. But all the false prophets and teachers of these denominations do not make their original teachings unbiblical or false. Yet, some people press this issue to say exactly that. If Pentecostalism is to be proven false because of its influences within it, then so are all denominations false for the same reason. It's either for everybody or nobody. My best advice to those against Pentecostalism for those reasons is to tell them to sweep around their own back door. You will never hear such people say any such things against their own denomination. To them, that would be blasphemy. What is it then, when they say it against other denominations? They can't have it both ways! What? My denomination is wrong because of it, yet their's is right? That's a double standard, in every sense of the meaning.