What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?
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I haven't changed the word nor twisted anything - you say that because you cannot see nor hear. Through Wiki, Webster and Bullinger I used the definition of the figure of speech - hendiadys. I'm sure you learned about nouns, verbs, about similes, metaphors, and other figures used in language in your English class at school? These things are also applied to the language used in scripture and it is good to know and study them together with prayer.
Disgustion Continues with no discovery of any passage that says unbaptized believers are condemned:
Study to show self approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed (prayer & fast is not substitute for that; don't change the word from "study" to "fast."
If you really believe that no commentaries should be consulted by anyone, then stop posting here & making comments, as no one would need to read you, just pray & fast.
Bullinger IMHO was somewhat of a nut.
webster is not very important; Greek/Hebrew lexicons are.
Prayer: Yes, pray for illumination (after you trust Christ as Savior so your prayers will be heard). James 1: wisdom comes from the Lord.
Fast: I don't know of any passage that recommends fasting as an aid to Bible study. I don't know of any passage that commands fasting to the Church. The Received Text (behind KJV) is more pro-fasting than are the most ancient manuscripts.
Of course we hop on rabbit paths, as hendiadys has little to do with the thread topic.
Disgustion Continues with no discovery of any passage that says unbaptized believers are condemned
Study to show self approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed (prayer & fast is not substitute for that; don't change the word from "study" to "fast."
If you really believe that no commentaries should be consulted by anyone, then stop posting here & making comments, as no one would need to read you, just pray & fast.
Bullinger IMHO was somewhat of a nut.
webster is not very important; Greek/Hebrew lexicons are.
Prayer: Yes, pray for illumination (after you trust Christ as Savior so your prayers will be heard). James 1: wisdom comes from the Lord.
Fast: I don't know of any passage that recommends fasting as an aid to Bible study. I don't know of any passage that commands fasting to the Church. The Received Text (behind KJV) is more pro-fasting than are the most ancient manuscripts.
Of course we hop on rabbit paths, as hendiadys has little to do with the thread topic.
Disgustion Continues with no discovery of any passage that says unbaptized believers are condemned
Still Nothing Found about Unbaptized Believers being condemned. In Bible interp, one prefers the literal when it makes good sense.
That is a misquotation from Lev 25:47. In Hebrew it actually says to (the) Here is what it actually says: "to (the) stranger sojourner, two words to describe a type of resident in Israel. The two words appear to make added description. The "example" does not have 2 nouns joined by AND.
"John 3:5 This is literally "Except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit" There is no article to either of the two nouns. "
Now do you have some proof that the lack of an article implies hendiadys? Do you have some proof that whenever two inarticular nouns are joined by kai, that is hendiadys? Or can you prove that hendiadys requires no articles?
It is indeed important to realize that there are figures, yet the rule is to prefer the literal if it makes sense, which it does for water in John 3.I am unaware of any proof that hendiadys occurs in the Bible.
Such an interpretation appears to me to be a big stretch of imagination. I can't see the Lord Jesus telling Nicodemus such a thing; as he could not have understood that. There is no baptism of the Spirit in the OT. What if Nic dies before the Church Age? Then he would not get this baptism before he died. Spirit baptism puts a person into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13), which did not exist in John 3. There is no context for it in John 3.
Thus obtaining this blessing was out of Nic's reach.
If you are a dispensationalist, why don't you think that "the Kingdom of God" in John 3 refers to the Davidic Kingdom & not the Church? Spirit baptism is out of context there; the Church is out of context there.
Just take the water literal, which requires no tortured fanciful interpretation. Yes, you can read anyone's commentary, but carefully if written by a nut, eat the fish & spit out the bones.
BTW, 15:4 - "the chariots of Pharaoh and his army" makes very good sense read literally. Twisting it to "the chariots of Pharaoh's army" suggests that the old boy didn't own the chariots directly, but surely he did.
That is a misquotation from Lev 25:47. In Hebrew it actually says to (the) Here is what it actually says: "to (the) stranger sojourner, two words to describe a type of resident in Israel. The two words appear to make added description. The "example" does not have 2 nouns joined by AND.
לגר תושב
"John 3:5 This is literally "Except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit" There is no article to either of the two nouns. "
Now do you have some proof that the lack of an article implies hendiadys? Do you have some proof that whenever two inarticular nouns are joined by kai, that is hendiadys? Or can you prove that hendiadys requires no articles?
It is indeed important to realize that there are figures, yet the rule is to prefer the literal if it makes sense, which it does for water in John 3.I am unaware of any proof that hendiadys occurs in the Bible.
Such an interpretation appears to me to be a big stretch of imagination. I can't see the Lord Jesus telling Nicodemus such a thing; as he could not have understood that. There is no baptism of the Spirit in the OT. What if Nic dies before the Church Age? Then he would not get this baptism before he died. Spirit baptism puts a person into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13), which did not exist in John 3. There is no context for it in John 3.
Thus obtaining this blessing was out of Nic's reach.
If you are a dispensationalist, why don't you think that "the Kingdom of God" in John 3 refers to the Davidic Kingdom & not the Church? Spirit baptism is out of context there; the Church is out of context there.
Just take the water literal, which requires no tortured fanciful interpretation. Yes, you can read anyone's commentary, but carefully if written by a nut, eat the fish & spit out the bones.
BTW, 15:4 - "the chariots of Pharaoh and his army" makes very good sense read literally. Twisting it to "the chariots of Pharaoh's army" suggests that the old boy didn't own the chariots directly, but surely he did.
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Baptizo means a literal immersion.
Proper exegesis: F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).
Baptism is not used figuratively in Mk 16:16 but a literal immersion in water. Mk 16:15,16 along with Mt 28:19,20 and Lk 24:47 are all accounts of Christ's great commission where disciples (humans) were commanded to do the baptizing and humans administer water baptism as Phillip did with the eunuch.
So water baptism does save, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21 because God has made water baptism the point as to where He saves.
Proper exegesis: F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).
Baptism is not used figuratively in Mk 16:16 but a literal immersion in water. Mk 16:15,16 along with Mt 28:19,20 and Lk 24:47 are all accounts of Christ's great commission where disciples (humans) were commanded to do the baptizing and humans administer water baptism as Phillip did with the eunuch.
So water baptism does save, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21 because God has made water baptism the point as to where He saves.
One verse would be all that is necessary to make baptism necessary but there are other verses besides Mk 16:16.
Being baptized by humans hands IS the baptism of Christ's great commission where humans/disciples baptize others with human hands as Phillip water baptized the eunuch with his human hands. Christ's baptism of the great commission is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that lasts till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20.
Apollos was baptized with John's baptism before Christ's baptism came into effect. John preached his baptism was for remission of sins, Mk 1:4. So Apollos' sins were remitted with John's baptism therefore would not need his sin remitted again with Christ's baptism. If John's baptism did not remit sins then John lied.
1) so John's baptism remitted sins. If Apllos had to be re-baptized for remission of sins then John lied about his baptism remitting sins
2) John's baptism allowed entrance into the kingdom, Mt 21:28-31
3) John's baptism was to "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Lk 1:17. Those in Acts 2:38 were lost sinners who were not ready and unprepared. If those baptized with John's baptism had to what these unready and unprepared people had to do in Acts 2, then that begs the question what is the difference between being prepared and unprepared and ready and unready?
Being baptized by humans hands IS the baptism of Christ's great commission where humans/disciples baptize others with human hands as Phillip water baptized the eunuch with his human hands. Christ's baptism of the great commission is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that lasts till the end of the world, Mt 28:19,20.
Apollos was baptized with John's baptism before Christ's baptism came into effect. John preached his baptism was for remission of sins, Mk 1:4. So Apollos' sins were remitted with John's baptism therefore would not need his sin remitted again with Christ's baptism. If John's baptism did not remit sins then John lied.
1) so John's baptism remitted sins. If Apllos had to be re-baptized for remission of sins then John lied about his baptism remitting sins
2) John's baptism allowed entrance into the kingdom, Mt 21:28-31
3) John's baptism was to "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Lk 1:17. Those in Acts 2:38 were lost sinners who were not ready and unprepared. If those baptized with John's baptism had to what these unready and unprepared people had to do in Acts 2, then that begs the question what is the difference between being prepared and unprepared and ready and unready?
Christ did not say essential; refrain from adding to the text.
The text says
If A & B, then C.
From that you cannot deduce:
If not B, then not C.
Simple logic, aside from the absence of WATER in the text.
I am not the picker, it is you SeaBass. You camp out on rare verses. I read the whole Bible, cover to cover & marked all the passages. And the evidence is more than one can post in one posting here. You reject the WHOLE COUNSEL.
Acts 2 has no unbaptized believers, so you can prove nothing on that topic from Acts 2. And not belng water baptized is not necessarily rejecting a thing. A man might be dying on a battlefield, or in the desert without water. Yet he could trust Christ as Savior. But your water hangup, interfers with your trusting Him as Savior, thus spiritual blindness results.
UNCHERRY PICK
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The text says
If A & B, then C.
From that you cannot deduce:
If not B, then not C.
Simple logic, aside from the absence of WATER in the text.
I am not the picker, it is you SeaBass. You camp out on rare verses. I read the whole Bible, cover to cover & marked all the passages. And the evidence is more than one can post in one posting here. You reject the WHOLE COUNSEL.
Acts 2 has no unbaptized believers, so you can prove nothing on that topic from Acts 2. And not belng water baptized is not necessarily rejecting a thing. A man might be dying on a battlefield, or in the desert without water. Yet he could trust Christ as Savior. But your water hangup, interfers with your trusting Him as Savior, thus spiritual blindness results.
UNCHERRY PICK
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Your "logic" still fails you:
Given: IF A + B, then C
Proves nothing about
If not A...
So if you can get rid of baptism using your flawed logic, then I can use your flawed logic and get rid of believeth.
------------------------
Below is the logic you cannot find a way to get around:
believeth (1) + baptized (2) = saved (3)
You will NEVER get 1 + nothing to = 3
And you clearly are cherry picking verse that teach belief saves while ignoring all the verses that say repentance, confession, baptism blood of Christ, obedience, the engrafted word etc etc all save.
Christ put belief before baptism and baptism before salvation so Christ made belief a necessary prerequite to baptism and baptism a necessary prerequisite to being saved.
Your premises is a man who eat meat and drinks juice is not short on protein.
But you imply that drinking juice is not necessary to get protein. If that true then your premise is flawed and untrue for your premise makes BOTH meat and juice necessary to not be short on protein.
Si is or is not juice necessary to keep from being short on protein? if you say "no" then your premise is flawed and untrue. If you say 'Yes' juice is necessary you still lose your argument.
1+2=3 is not illogical or sophistry it's simple mathematics.
1) belief + 2) baptized = 3) saved
The lack of logic comes when you try and get 1 + 0 = 3.
Still no one has come up with any verse that condemns the unbaptized believer.
If Christ mentioned the word baptism before the word salvation in one verse, that proves nothing unless there is proper inferential language defining the relationship. There is no language of necessity in the text between baptize & salvation. What you see is that if a man believes & is baptized he will be saved -- but the same is true about believing and brushing your hair. For over & over salvation is offered just for believing. Thus baptism cannot be essential.
If A & B, then C;
If not A, then not C;
Illogical false inference from that, If not B, then not C.
You may as well argue from "Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither." That if someone calls, then thy results, because of word order! or that if the woman has a thy that means she has a husband, because of word order.
Bear not false witness, Seabass.
This is logic.
I am not implying anything, just demonstrating logic.
Given (assuming).
Given that a man who eats meat & drinks juice is not short on protein,
Given that a man drinks no juice,
It is illogical and a fallacy to deduce from these 2 givens that
A man who does not drink juice is short on protein.
This is plain logic and has no dispute except by an irrational person.
You again practice sophistry and illogic.
Logical inference is not doing sums.
You have no right to assign to "belief" the numeric value of 1,
then to assign "baptized" the numeric value of 2.
They have no such numeric value.
Neither does salvation have the numeric value of 3.
And there are no numeric values to sum up.
Belief/faith + 0 yields salvation over & over in the Bible.
And this is not adding sums, but inferential logic.
What is the believer's belief worth?
What is his salvation worth? How much is eternal life worth?
Water baptism is a human work useless for salvation (0).
But we are not rating matters with numerical values.
This is logical inference.
If faith, then salvation.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you SHALL BE saved.
For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourself, not of works lest anyone should boast.
If Christ mentioned the word baptism before the word salvation in one verse, that proves nothing unless there is proper inferential language defining the relationship. There is no language of necessity in the text between baptize & salvation. What you see is that if a man believes & is baptized he will be saved -- but the same is true about believing and brushing your hair. For over & over salvation is offered just for believing. Thus baptism cannot be essential.
If A & B, then C;
If not A, then not C;
Illogical false inference from that, If not B, then not C.
You may as well argue from "Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither." That if someone calls, then thy results, because of word order! or that if the woman has a thy that means she has a husband, because of word order.
Bear not false witness, Seabass.
This is logic.
I am not implying anything, just demonstrating logic.
Given (assuming).
Given that a man who eats meat & drinks juice is not short on protein,
Given that a man drinks no juice,
It is illogical and a fallacy to deduce from these 2 givens that
A man who does not drink juice is short on protein.
This is plain logic and has no dispute except by an irrational person.
You again practice sophistry and illogic.
Logical inference is not doing sums.
You have no right to assign to "belief" the numeric value of 1,
then to assign "baptized" the numeric value of 2.
They have no such numeric value.
Neither does salvation have the numeric value of 3.
And there are no numeric values to sum up.
Belief/faith + 0 yields salvation over & over in the Bible.
And this is not adding sums, but inferential logic.
What is the believer's belief worth?
What is his salvation worth? How much is eternal life worth?
Water baptism is a human work useless for salvation (0).
But we are not rating matters with numerical values.
This is logical inference.
If faith, then salvation.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you SHALL BE saved.
For by grace you have been saved through faith,
And that not of yourself, not of works lest anyone should boast.
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Still no one has come up with a verse about what happens to the unbaptized believer.
All commands must be obeyed, Kenneth, or
Lake of Fire, Kenneth, & that includes you who do not obey!
You and everyone else will go to the Lake of Fire, since you do not obey the Lord's commands. Partial obedience (per James) is unsatisfactory. Trying is unsatisfactory. You must be perfect!
So since all disobey the Lord, all go to the Lake of Fire, including you --
Exception to the above:
unless you trust the Lord Jesus to save you. Those who dismiss the Savior & make the Lord Jesus a mere chance-giver have no hope until they trust Him as Savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
All commands must be obeyed, Kenneth, or
Lake of Fire, Kenneth, & that includes you who do not obey!
You and everyone else will go to the Lake of Fire, since you do not obey the Lord's commands. Partial obedience (per James) is unsatisfactory. Trying is unsatisfactory. You must be perfect!
So since all disobey the Lord, all go to the Lake of Fire, including you --
Exception to the above:
unless you trust the Lord Jesus to save you. Those who dismiss the Savior & make the Lord Jesus a mere chance-giver have no hope until they trust Him as Savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
K
I do believe and obey the Lord Atwood;
I believe Him to be my Lord and Savior
I believe in being baptized and have been baptized because He commanded it.
I believe in repenting of sins, and have repented of mine. Because He said repent or parish.
I believe in confessing Him before others, and I do confess Him as my Lord and Savior in front of others.
Because He said confess Me before men, and He will confess us before the Father, but if you deny Him in front of others He will deny you to the Father.
I believe in helping others, because He said to help others in need and not to turn some one away, not even an enemy.
Matthew 22:36-40[SUP]36 [/SUP]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 5:44-45
[SUP]44[/SUP]But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[SUP]45 [/SUP]that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
John 14:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Well and you also just answered your own question. You said if you don't obey the commandments the Lord gives you go to the lake of fire. He commanded baptism.
Then also there you go again condemning me and others again, which is not the way of the Lord.
We are suppose to walk in love, forgiveness, and helping others, not condemning others.
I believe Him to be my Lord and Savior
I believe in being baptized and have been baptized because He commanded it.
I believe in repenting of sins, and have repented of mine. Because He said repent or parish.
I believe in confessing Him before others, and I do confess Him as my Lord and Savior in front of others.
Because He said confess Me before men, and He will confess us before the Father, but if you deny Him in front of others He will deny you to the Father.
I believe in helping others, because He said to help others in need and not to turn some one away, not even an enemy.
Matthew 22:36-40[SUP]36 [/SUP]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 5:44-45
[SUP]44[/SUP]But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
[SUP]45 [/SUP]that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
John 14:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Well and you also just answered your own question. You said if you don't obey the commandments the Lord gives you go to the lake of fire. He commanded baptism.
Then also there you go again condemning me and others again, which is not the way of the Lord.
We are suppose to walk in love, forgiveness, and helping others, not condemning others.