What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?
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Proverbs says something about a fool's folly not leaving him even if you put him in a mortar and brayed him with a pestle, not that I would address the term "fool" at anyone.
Perhaps it is easier to obsess on an unnecessary interpretation of a rare verse, rather than admit that one is so desperately evil that one must be saved by grace, apart from works.
Perhaps it is easier to obsess on an unnecessary interpretation of a rare verse, rather than admit that one is so desperately evil that one must be saved by grace, apart from works.
I was paraphrasing from E.W. Bullinger's Book - Word Studies on the Holy Spirit.
[the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure.
Did I say it meant "water which means Spirit"? - nope - "water and Spirit" meaning "spiritual water" as in "living water". [John 4:10,13,14; John 7:38,39] And you are correct baptism is not mentioned here but there is a relation to the verses regarding "living water".
I can see it both ways.
Ex: The locks on the house should keep you safe and secure. The locks on the house should keep you safely secured.
He came despite the rain and weather. He came despite the rainy weather.
[the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure.
Did I say it meant "water which means Spirit"? - nope - "water and Spirit" meaning "spiritual water" as in "living water". [John 4:10,13,14; John 7:38,39] And you are correct baptism is not mentioned here but there is a relation to the verses regarding "living water".
I can see it both ways.
Ex: The locks on the house should keep you safe and secure. The locks on the house should keep you safely secured.
He came despite the rain and weather. He came despite the rainy weather.
Last edited:
I was paraphrasing from E.W. Bullinger's Book - Word Studies on the Holy Spirit.
[the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure.
Did I say it meant "water which means Spirit"? - nope - "water and Spirit" meaning "spiritual water" as in "living water". [John 4:10,13,14; John 7:38,39] And you are correct baptism is not mentioned here but there is a relation to the verses regarding "living water".
I can see it both ways.
Ex: The locks on the house should keep you safe and secure. The locks on the house should keep you safely secured.
He came despite the rain and weather. He came despite the rainy weather.
[the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure.
Did I say it meant "water which means Spirit"? - nope - "water and Spirit" meaning "spiritual water" as in "living water". [John 4:10,13,14; John 7:38,39] And you are correct baptism is not mentioned here but there is a relation to the verses regarding "living water".
I can see it both ways.
Ex: The locks on the house should keep you safe and secure. The locks on the house should keep you safely secured.
He came despite the rain and weather. He came despite the rainy weather.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
K
what does head dunking have to do with salvation? was Abraham saved? or Jacob? what about Issac? when did they dunk their heads in water? God is the same yesterday today and forever. Yet He is the God of Abraham ,Issac , and Jacob. Neither one ever dunked their head. In fact when Elijah and Elisha came to a body of water it split and they walked across on dry ground. Cuase they didn't want to get wet.
Christ did not say essential; refrain from adding to the text.
The text says
If A & B, then C.
From that you cannot deduce:
If not B, then not C.
Simple logic, aside from the absence of WATER in the text.
I am not the picker, it is you SeaBass. You camp out on rare verses. I read the whole Bible, cover to cover & marked all the passages. And the evidence is more than one can post in one posting here. You reject the WHOLE COUNSEL.
Acts 2 has no unbaptized believers, so you can prove nothing on that topic from Acts 2. And not belng water baptized is not necessarily rejecting a thing. A man might be dying on a battlefield, or in the desert without water. Yet he could trust Christ as Savior. But your water hangup, interfers with your trusting Him as Savior, thus spiritual blindness results.
UNCHERRY PICK
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The text says
If A & B, then C.
From that you cannot deduce:
If not B, then not C.
Simple logic, aside from the absence of WATER in the text.
I am not the picker, it is you SeaBass. You camp out on rare verses. I read the whole Bible, cover to cover & marked all the passages. And the evidence is more than one can post in one posting here. You reject the WHOLE COUNSEL.
Acts 2 has no unbaptized believers, so you can prove nothing on that topic from Acts 2. And not belng water baptized is not necessarily rejecting a thing. A man might be dying on a battlefield, or in the desert without water. Yet he could trust Christ as Savior. But your water hangup, interfers with your trusting Him as Savior, thus spiritual blindness results.
UNCHERRY PICK
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
You are changing what I posted now. If you don't see the logic, you are disqualified from discussing these matters.
What I said was
Given: If A + B, then C
Does not prove: If NOT B, then not C.
Given that If a man eats meat & drinks juice, he is not short on protein.
Faulty illogical conclusion: If a man does not drink juice, he is short on protein.
There is no flawed logic.
and you cannot get rid of believe because of the 2nd Given,
He who does not believe is condemned!
What sophistry, and what illogic!
You confuse conditional items and logical result
with adding numerals and getting a sum.
And you stick in an equal sign where a result follows, not a sum.
Believe (first thing) + baptized (2nd thing), then result [not =] salvation (3rd thing).
From that conditional statement you cannot deduce that
If not baptized (2nd thing) then result (3rd thing) does not follow.
That is a logical blunder.
If meat (1) and juice (2), then not short on protein (3).
Blunder to deduce:
If not juice , then short on protein.
It has nothing to do with adding sums.
This is logical inference.
What I said was
Given: If A + B, then C
Does not prove: If NOT B, then not C.
Given that If a man eats meat & drinks juice, he is not short on protein.
Faulty illogical conclusion: If a man does not drink juice, he is short on protein.
There is no flawed logic.
and you cannot get rid of believe because of the 2nd Given,
He who does not believe is condemned!
What sophistry, and what illogic!
You confuse conditional items and logical result
with adding numerals and getting a sum.
And you stick in an equal sign where a result follows, not a sum.
Believe (first thing) + baptized (2nd thing), then result [not =] salvation (3rd thing).
From that conditional statement you cannot deduce that
If not baptized (2nd thing) then result (3rd thing) does not follow.
That is a logical blunder.
If meat (1) and juice (2), then not short on protein (3).
Blunder to deduce:
If not juice , then short on protein.
It has nothing to do with adding sums.
This is logical inference.
False.
To say If A + B, then C,
does not logically imply
if not B, then not C.
Simple logic.
The word requires is absent from the statement.
The Bible over & over reiterates but one thing for salvation, belief/faith -- the evidence has been posted, overwhelming. Those who believe DO ENTER His rest, as Hebrews says -- nothing about water.
Over & over in the Bible one gets to salvation or justification with belief and no mention of water.
It would be true to say
Whoever believes & shines his shoes will be saved.
But shoe shining is not essential to salvation.
The only one condemned in the statement is the unbeliever.
Now if I were you, SeaBass, I would be concerned about your failure to trust the Savior, deeming him a chance-giver, thinking that human works save. You seem to fit the definition of an unbeliever, a man who thinks that saving belief is what devils do, but that is not saving faith, for it is not trusting the only & the sufficient Savior.
To say If A + B, then C,
does not logically imply
if not B, then not C.
Simple logic.
The word requires is absent from the statement.
The Bible over & over reiterates but one thing for salvation, belief/faith -- the evidence has been posted, overwhelming. Those who believe DO ENTER His rest, as Hebrews says -- nothing about water.
Over & over in the Bible one gets to salvation or justification with belief and no mention of water.
It would be true to say
Whoever believes & shines his shoes will be saved.
But shoe shining is not essential to salvation.
The only one condemned in the statement is the unbeliever.
Now if I were you, SeaBass, I would be concerned about your failure to trust the Savior, deeming him a chance-giver, thinking that human works save. You seem to fit the definition of an unbeliever, a man who thinks that saving belief is what devils do, but that is not saving faith, for it is not trusting the only & the sufficient Savior.
OK, NewB, lets have the simplicity of the gospel:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How about stopping the argument long enough to obey the above? How about repenting of deeming him a chance-giver? How about surrendering to the concept:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from theirs sins.
Simple enough?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How about stopping the argument long enough to obey the above? How about repenting of deeming him a chance-giver? How about surrendering to the concept:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from theirs sins.
Simple enough?
The word is hendiadys (hen = 1; dys = 2).
Thanks for calling my attention to this theory; I had missed it. I looked it up a bit and found that apparently it goes back to Calvin. Alford in his Greek Testament dismisses the theory.
I haven't seen any formal rules for it -- it looks like just an explanation one pulls out when it seems reasonable and needed.
But I don't follow it because
1) if the literal sense makes good sense, don't go figurative;
2) natural birth in context,
3) I don't know of any Bible example where a symbol and its literal equivalent are joined in hendiadys.
Your example is off. Living water is living water, not "life and water" reinterpreted to mean "living water." You don't seem to have an example where the text says "I am the life and water," but means "living water."
So I dismiss this as fanciful figurative interpretation where the literal makes good sense.
Bullinger, is an Ultradispensationalist, who as I recall did not believe that the Church even existed until Acts 28. I think his view leads to rejecting both water baptism and the Lord's supper, as one is left with only the Pastoral Epistles written to the Church among Paul's writings.
IMHO, Bullinger is a crackpot, who resorted to 2 sets of thieves at the cross to reconcile things. And he was into fanciful numerology.
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You don't have to be baptize at all if you don't want to that's your choice.
There are 2 Baptism:
1 for people that go to heaven
2 one is for people that don't go to heaven which is only a dedication to God
AND the Third one if there is one would be Not to be baptize because of it never coming into existence until Jesus came.
We all go to the same place when we die righteous or not same place.
A
There is nothing that happens to the people who are not baptized. Realize that being baptized is for us! It's an action of love that serves as cleaning of our sins. It's symbolic of and action of love for Christ to cleanse ourselves and walk in his footsteps. There is not a biblical scripture to support this, but, once again, I will have to say if you read the bible from front to end you will then understand that which you don't.
when you believe this is what you do..it is that simple
Acts 2:38-39American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
Acts 2:38-39American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
M
While reading early Christian writings I found there was what was considered three types of baptism
1- the normal baptism of water while the trinity was said
2- baptism of blood meaning someone killed for the faith that wasn't water baptized such as Stephen the first martyr
3-bapstism of disird someone who wanted to be baptized but there was something inhibiting that such as the thief if the cross
1- the normal baptism of water while the trinity was said
2- baptism of blood meaning someone killed for the faith that wasn't water baptized such as Stephen the first martyr
3-bapstism of disird someone who wanted to be baptized but there was something inhibiting that such as the thief if the cross
Webster's - the expression of an idea by the use of two usually independent words connected by "and" - emphasis being placed on the noun, not the modifier
Wikipedia - Only had 2 examples of hendiadys - Exodus 15:4 - "the chariots of Pharaoh and his army" = "the chariots of Pharaoh's army; Lev. 25:47 "the alien and the resident" = "resident alien"
chafter-cstn.org/BaseT/BIBLI/Hendiadys.doc - John 3:5 This is literally "Except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit" There is no article to either of the two nouns.
In literature there are figures of speech - similes, metaphors, idioms and hendiadys plus considerably more [these are just off the top of my head]. There are over 200 figures of speech used in the literature of the Bible. Genuine figures of speech are real forms used in grammar to add emphasis and feeling to what is said. It doesn't make what is being said figurative as in "not real"! Except a man be born again = first birth - physical - from the mother's womb - That which is flesh is flesh. Second birth = born of water and spirit = spiritual water = That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I did not say that "living water" was the figure of hendiadys . . . .
water and Spirit is the figure meaning spiritual water which would be "baptized with holy Spirit"
which is what Jesus was speaking about to the woman at the well - "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
which is - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)"
which is - "Upon whom thou shalt see the spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit"
which is - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Well, to you it can be some fanciful figurative impression but to me - it all fits together beautifully . . . and like I said before - using figures of speech does not make something NOT REAL but emphasizes what is being said.
I know very well who and what Bullinger is - I am also a dispensationalist although I do believe the church began at Acts 2. BTW, because someone is a dispensationalist does not mean that one does not study the WHOLE of scripture. I see Bullinger as a Biblical scholar even though I may not agree with EVERYTHING he represents - it took him a great deal of time to study the things he has studied, a great deal of desire to know truth and a great desire to teach others - that is his heart and probably any scholar's heart when coming to God's word - I respect him for that alone. If I study what is presented and I see a direct relation - then I'm okay with it. I also have his book - "Number in Scripture" - I find it very interesting. Have you ever studied anything of Bullinger's or you base your impression of him on hearsay? As for the 2 sets of thieves - two different Greek words were used - have you studied it for yourself? If what someone teaches something and you study along with them, if it lines up with the Word, and fits together to make a perfect "picture"
for you - then keep it; if not - throw it out.
Wikipedia - Only had 2 examples of hendiadys - Exodus 15:4 - "the chariots of Pharaoh and his army" = "the chariots of Pharaoh's army; Lev. 25:47 "the alien and the resident" = "resident alien"
chafter-cstn.org/BaseT/BIBLI/Hendiadys.doc - John 3:5 This is literally "Except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit" There is no article to either of the two nouns.
In literature there are figures of speech - similes, metaphors, idioms and hendiadys plus considerably more [these are just off the top of my head]. There are over 200 figures of speech used in the literature of the Bible. Genuine figures of speech are real forms used in grammar to add emphasis and feeling to what is said. It doesn't make what is being said figurative as in "not real"! Except a man be born again = first birth - physical - from the mother's womb - That which is flesh is flesh. Second birth = born of water and spirit = spiritual water = That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I did not say that "living water" was the figure of hendiadys . . . .
water and Spirit is the figure meaning spiritual water which would be "baptized with holy Spirit"
which is what Jesus was speaking about to the woman at the well - "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
which is - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)"
which is - "Upon whom thou shalt see the spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit"
which is - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Well, to you it can be some fanciful figurative impression but to me - it all fits together beautifully . . . and like I said before - using figures of speech does not make something NOT REAL but emphasizes what is being said.
I know very well who and what Bullinger is - I am also a dispensationalist although I do believe the church began at Acts 2. BTW, because someone is a dispensationalist does not mean that one does not study the WHOLE of scripture. I see Bullinger as a Biblical scholar even though I may not agree with EVERYTHING he represents - it took him a great deal of time to study the things he has studied, a great deal of desire to know truth and a great desire to teach others - that is his heart and probably any scholar's heart when coming to God's word - I respect him for that alone. If I study what is presented and I see a direct relation - then I'm okay with it. I also have his book - "Number in Scripture" - I find it very interesting. Have you ever studied anything of Bullinger's or you base your impression of him on hearsay? As for the 2 sets of thieves - two different Greek words were used - have you studied it for yourself? If what someone teaches something and you study along with them, if it lines up with the Word, and fits together to make a perfect "picture"
for you - then keep it; if not - throw it out.