What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

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Mar 12, 2014
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Baptizo is the greek word used in Mark 16:16 That word is used in conjunction with Holy Spirit baptism not water baptism. You deny the Holy Spirit baptism so you are not in the quickened soul category of souls. The latter half of the verse makes it crystal clear that not someone who is unbaptized but someone who does not believe is condemned.

I'll make it super simple for you. Belief and Holy Spirit baptism yields eternal life. No belief and no Holy Spirit baptism yields no eternal life.

And you hath He quickened who were dead in trespass and sins. Quickened by the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Mk 16;15,16; Mt 28:19,20 is Christ's great commission that had disciples/humans commanded to go, teach and baptize. Humans can water baptize as Phillip did with the eunuch.


Mk 16:16 makes it crystal clear that one must BOTH believe AND AND AND AND AND be baptized leaving the unbaptized believer lost.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Newb posted:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us,(1) through the washing of regeneration and(2) renewing of the Holy Spirit,

What happened to your old AND-GLUE theory?

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit as is renewing, very similar terms.

There is no water no no baptism in the verse!

Moreover, it states no bad outcome for any unbaptized believer!

Jn 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Tts 3:5 "
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

These are parallel verses:

Jn 3:5------------Spirit AND++++++++++
water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts3:5---------Holy Ghost AND+++
washing of reg.>>>>>>>>>saved
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Pentecost was a filling and the Greek confirms the premise. Acts 2:4
"Was a" is not in the text. You cannot establish that the only thing that happened was filling with the spirit. There was questioning, for example, "What meaneth this?" It is absurd to say that if A happened, that means B did not also happen.

Acts 1 says, "5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence." That is not just addressed to "those who received Peter's message that day."

"Not many days hence."
Surely that means Pentecost.

[quoteThe common association of Holy Spirit baptism with tongues is wrong. When believers were filled with the Holy Spirit the evidence was in the appearance of tongues.
ITA
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was when they believed unto salvation which occurred before they were filled with power.[/quote]

That is not taught in Scripture relative to the apostles. The disciples believed in Christ long before there was any Church. In Acts 16 the Church was yet future. Spirit baptism puts men into the Church (1 Cor 12:13). Spirit Filling is something that can come & go. Generally speaking, yes, only believers in the Body of Christ can be filled. I don't know anyway to prove that filling doesn't initially happen when a man is saved though, at the same time as His baptism in the Spirit.

To deny the Holy Spirit baptism at salvation is to deny the power of God to save. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to convict of Christ's righteousness and to convict of Gods judgment upon sin. To say it does not occur is to deny the power of the gospel.
I generally agree with the gist of what you say, Roger, but actually you seem to confuse Spirit baptism with other ministry's of the Spirit. Regeneration, conviction of sin, indwelling, and filling are not baptism.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Mk 16;15,16; Mt 28:19,20 is Christ's great commission that had disciples/humans commanded to go, teach and baptize. Humans can water baptize as Phillip did with the eunuch.


Mk 16:16 makes it crystal clear that one must BOTH believe AND AND AND AND AND be baptized leaving the unbaptized believer lost.
Repeating false doctrine will not make it sound. Larger fonts will not change the error you teach. You deny the Holy Spirit and you are not part of Christ without the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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That is not taught in Scripture relative to the apostles. The disciples believed in Christ long before there was any Church. In Acts 16 the Church was yet future. Spirit baptism puts men into the Church (1 Cor 12:13). Spirit Filling is something that can come & go. Generally speaking, yes, only believers in the Body of Christ can be filled. I don't know anyway to prove that filling doesn't initially happen when a man is saved though, at the same time as His baptism in the Spirit.



I generally agree with the gist of what you say, Roger, but actually you seem to confuse Spirit baptism with other ministry's of the Spirit. Regeneration, conviction of sin, indwelling, and filling are not baptism.
The apostles continued to doubt until they saw the risen Christ. The Holy Spirit Who is the abiding presence of Christ was not given until the upper room after the resurrection.

They did not truly know Christ until they had the Holy Spirit. Like many today they knew of Christ but they did not nor could not possess Christ until the Holy Spirit was given for them to receive.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 12, 2014
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BUT Mk 16:16 does not say "he that believeth and is not baptized shall not be saved" . . . . It simply says "he that believeth not shall be damned" . . . which goes along with John 3:18 - "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

Bad logic.

Since the bible does NOT specifically forbid the use cokes and peanuts for the Lord's Supper, therefore coke and peanuts can be used and one stills can do as Christ directed? No.


Since God did NOT specifically forbid the use pine to build the ark, therefore Noah could have used pine and still do as God commanded? No.

So when Christ said "believe AND be baptized" that automatically, logically rules out being saved while NOT being baptized. Therefore Christ does not have to specifically say "he that believeth and is not baptized shall not be saved"
 
Mar 12, 2014
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The Thread continues without anyone posting any verse that says unbaptized believers persons are damned.



I have seen no denial of water baptism.
I have seen no quotation of scripture where an unbaptized believer is damned.

Here is what you yourself backquoted:



Alligator saith:

Try 1 Cor 12:10-15.

1 Cor is addressed to believers today: "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place"

Can you show one single verse that says Water baptism is for believers today?

The scripture given to the Church is for the Church Age. You may as well ask where is "Thou shalt not murder" given to believers today? So then what if someone demand of you to show that Water Baptism is for believers today? And how do you know that Acts 2:38 was given to anyone but those standing there on Pentecost? So where is anything in the Bible addressed to persons living in the 21st century? Can you give one verse that says water baptism is for the year 2014?

So then if you are going to throw out all the passages on baptism on the grounds that none of it is said to be for today, you have no doctrine of water baptism is essential for salvation.

Mark 16:16
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Repeating false doctrine will not make it sound. Larger fonts will not change the error you teach. You deny the Holy Spirit and you are not part of Christ without the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I am repeating Mk 16:16 and you call it "false doctrine"??? Very telling.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Again, SeaBass fails to find a verse that condemns the unbaptized believer.

Mk 16;15,16; Mt 28:19,20 is Christ's great commission that had disciples/humans commanded to go, teach and baptize. Humans can water baptize as Phillip did with the eunuch.
Mat & Mk are not the same utterance.

Mk 16:16 makes it crystal clear that one must BOTH believe AND AND AND AND AND be baptized leaving the unbaptized believer lost.
Refrain from adding to the Word. "must BOTH" is not in the text.

Repeating AND in bold proves nothing.

You violate Logic 101.

Given: If A & B, then C
Given: If not A, then not C.

Logical Fallacy:
Conclusion: If not B, then not C.

Simple logic.

Given: If a man eats fat and [AND AND AND AND] drinks juice, he becomes obese.

Given: If a man does not eat fat, he is condemned to skinny.

False conclusion: "If a man does not drink juice, he is condemned to skinny."


 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Again SeaBass fails to find a verse that condemns the unbaptized believer.
Mark 16 says nothing about the unbaptized believer. While the unbeliever is said to be condemned, it is striking that NO SUCH STATEMENT is made of the unbaptized -- unbaptized is left out of the condemnation clause.

And since salvation is offered merely for believing/having faith over & over -- too much for one post, one may not try to force a meaning into Mark 16 which is not there.

"
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:) or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Still SeaBass gives no verse where an unbaptized believer is condemned.

I am repeating Mk 16:16 and you call it "false doctrine"??? Very telling.
It is not that Mark 16:16 is false doctrine, it is your addition to it that is false doctrine.

Given: If A + B, then C;

Proves nothing about
If not B . . .
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Again SeaBass fails to find a verse that condemns the unbaptized believer.


Mark 16 says nothing about the unbaptized believer. While the unbeliever is said to be condemned, it is striking that NO SUCH STATEMENT is made of the unbaptized -- unbaptized is left out of the condemnation clause.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"

Since Christ made BOTH belief AND baptism ESSENTIAL to being "saved", logically that leaves the unbaptized believer UNSAVED. You can deny it all you care to, but that will not make it go away.

And just quoting cherry-picked verses that mention belief will NEVER make salvation by belief only. You do not consider "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) when it comes to verses dealing with salvation.

Acts 2:41,44 not being baptized is rejecting the gospel word.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Still SeaBass gives no verse where an unbaptized believer is condemned.



It is not that Mark 16:16 is false doctrine, it is your addition to it that is false doctrine.

Given: If A + B, then C;

Proves nothing about
If not B . . .

According to you FLAWED logic you are using, then I can say:

Given: IF A + B, then C

Proves nothing about
If not A...

So if you can get rid of baptism using your flawed logic, then I can use your flawed logic and get rid of believeth.


------------------------

Below is the logic you cannot find a way to get around:

believeth (1) + baptized (2) = saved (3)

You will NEVER get 1 + nothing to = 3
 
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Mar 28, 2014
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Again, SeaBass fails to find a verse that condemns the unbaptized believer.



Mat & Mk are not the same utterance.



Refrain from adding to the Word. "must BOTH" is not in the text.

Repeating AND in bold proves nothing.

You violate Logic 101.

Given: If A & B, then C
Given: If not A, then not C.

Logical Fallacy:
Conclusion: If not B, then not C.

Simple logic.

Given: If a man eats fat and [AND AND AND AND] drinks juice, he becomes obese.

Given: If a man does not eat fat, he is condemned to skinny.

False conclusion: "If a man does not drink juice, he is condemned to skinny."


Are you saying.... if you believe and is baptised you shall be saved is = to if you believe and is not baptised you shall be saved...?.. is that your logic? what is the purpose of the comment if doing and not doing brings the same result?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Are you saying.... if you believe and is baptised you shall be saved is = to if you believe and is not baptised you shall be saved...?.. is that your logic? what is the purpose of the comment if doing and not doing brings the same result?

Atwood's premise: if "A" + "B", then you get "C"

Then Atwood decides that you can really get to "C" without "B". But if this is true, then Atwood's premise is flawed and untrue for the premise requires "A" + "B", to get to "C"
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Bad logic.

Since the bible does NOT specifically forbid the use cokes and peanuts for the Lord's Supper, therefore coke and peanuts can be used and one stills can do as Christ directed? No.

Since God did NOT specifically forbid the use pine to build the ark, therefore Noah could have used pine and still do as God commanded? No.

So when Christ said "believe AND be baptized" that automatically, logically rules out being saved while NOT being baptized. Therefore Christ does not have to specifically say "he that believeth and isnot baptized shall not be saved"
So when Christ said "believe and be baptized" - did he specifically say "water"? I understand that "water" was used in the OT - I understand that John baptized with water for repentance - I understand that John prophesied that there would be one coming that was mightier than he (John) who would baptize with Holy Spirit - I understand that Jesus was baptized in "water" to fulfill the law - I understand that Jesus said He would give us "living water" to drink - I understand that "living water" is the Holy Spirit - I understand that "by one Spirit we are baptized into one body" and "made to drink into one Spirit" - that is baptism in Holy Spirit - that is the ONE baptism.

Water baptism does not save anyone nor does "water" create the new man.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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So when Christ said "believe and be baptized" - did he specifically say "water"? I understand that "water" was used in the OT - I understand that John baptized with water for repentance - I understand that John prophesied that there would be one coming that was mightier than he (John) who would baptize with Holy Spirit - I understand that Jesus was baptized in "water" to fulfill the law - I understand that Jesus said He would give us "living water" to drink - I understand that "living water" is the Holy Spirit - I understand that "by one Spirit we are baptized into one body" and "made to drink into one Spirit" - that is baptism in Holy Spirit - that is the ONE baptism.

Water baptism does not save anyone nor does "water" create the new man.
well the scripture says that you must be born of water and of the spirit.... to enter the kingdom ....he did not say born of spirit and of the spirit...some due to ignorance or mischief conclude that the water spoken of is that which comes out before one is born in the natural...but that cannot be so because it pertains to a natural birth..
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

.Jesus spoke of a spiritual birth which include both water and spirit`and He showed us the way by submitting to water and the Holy Spirit....
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"

my dear fish, you simply must procure for yourself a Bible that has more than one verse in it.
no scripture is privately interpreted.
have a look at post #290. there are a great multitude of scriptures promising salvation to all who believe on the name of Jesus.
there is exactly one place where our Lord said all who believe and are baptized will be saved.

did Jesus contradict all the rest of the Word?
should we re-write and add to all the rest of the scriptures, replacing the word "believe" with "be baptized by human hands in a ritual ceremony" ?
or is this exactly one gospel, that all who believe are sanctified by the Spirit, that "baptism" is a spiritual reality of immersion in, regeneration through, and renewal by the Holy Spirit which is the gift of God, the work of God alone, the earnest of our salvation being given by God, without human hands, to all who hear the Word and receive it, and that it is the custom of the church to celebrate and publicly declare this work of God with the ceremony of water which is a like figure to the work that only God can do, and only God does?

it is good for you to cling to the Word, but reach up and grab hold of it with both hands, taking firm purchase in the body of it, not one loose vine only between your fingers, or you may fall - because there is much here that is strong to hold us up!


(Acts 18:24-26) Now a Jew named A·pol′los, a native of Alexandria, arrived in Eph′e·sus; he was an eloquent man who was well-versed in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of Jehovah, and aglow with the spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things about Jesus, but he was acquainted only with the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and when Pris·cil′la and Aq′ui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him.
how about this Apollos!
he having heard and believed the gospel of the living Christ, was 'aglow with the Spirit' and did not even perceive it!
his brother & sister in Christ taught him what God had done by His Spirit, and he was made bolder and wiser for it - and the scripture does not record that he was re-baptized!

so here is a man who was never 'baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost' by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O -- and yet he was baptized by the Spirit, but did not even know!
when made aware of it he did not seek out a bathtub to make his salvation sure.

perhaps we have finally found scripture about a believer who was not water-baptized into Christ?
what happened to him?
he was immersed by God in the Spirit!
he confounded all who argued with him and mightily declared the risen Christ!
this he did by the Spirit of God, not by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.
 
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well the scripture says that you must be born of water and of the spirit.... to enter the kingdom ....he did not say born of spirit and of the spirit...some due to ignorance or mischief conclude that the water spoken of is that which comes out before one is born in the natural...but that cannot be so because it pertains to a natural birth..
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

.Jesus spoke of a spiritual birth which include both water and spirit`and He showed us the way by submitting to water and the Holy Spirit....
Yes, the scripture does say that we must be born of water and the Spirit . . . . The reason some conclude that being born of the water is not due to ignorance or mischief - it comes from logic in the fact that Jesus specifically points out after saying that - That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Why even say that or give that as a comparison?

But we can look at it as born of water and of Spirit . . . [the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure. So in English this could be read - "Except a man be born of water, yea, spiritual water."
What this spiritual water is to be is explained in John 7:39 - which I have gone over many times.

Jesus was baptized in water and when the dove lit upon him it represented His being baptized in Holy Spirit. - And John bare record saying I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. [John 1:32] In Matt. 20:23 when Jesus asked - Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? - Why would he ask them if they were able to be baptized with water? or was he referring to his baptism with Holy Spirit. - and he continues "You shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with. . . ." [Mk 10:38,39; Luke 20:22,23] Also, why make any distinction of baptism with "John's baptism" if water was the "only" baptism -
Acts 10:36 - That word, you know, which was published throughout all Judea and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached
Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were you baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people, that they should believe on him [Jesus] which should come after him . . on Christ Jesus.

And what did John say about the one that was coming after him - John 1:29,30 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lam of God which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 32,33) And John bare record saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit. [again there is that distinction that John was to baptize with water but Jesus was going to baptize with Holy Spirit - a clear distinction]
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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But we can look at it as born of water and of Spirit . . . [the definite article is absent from the Greek - ex hudatos kai pneumatos] This is the figure of speech - heindiadys - by which two words are used, only one thing is meant. Here the one thing is "water" but Jesus emphasizes the fact that this water is not to be material as it was under the law, but spiritual by using this figure. So in English this could be read - "Except a man be born of water, yea, spiritual water."
Peaceful, I don't know how you are going to prove hendiadys (only one i in the term). I doubt you can prove that the omission of the article makes a hendiadys. Getting back into the mother's womb is in context. I think hendiadys is like saying, e.g., safe and secure. "Water which means Spirit," would be obtuse to the hearer, though elsewhere water is used as a symbol for the Spirit (as in the movie "Tron," methinks)." And IMHO, your explanation provides an unnecessary straw man to attack as far-fetched.

Since the literal makes good sense here for water, let's seek no other sense.
To be born again requires more than a physical birth by water, it requires regeneration of the Spirit.

But since baptism is not mentioned here, it cannot be a proof text for baptism. Also it cannot be a proof text for those who throw out the thief on the cross for being in a former dispensation.

But keep on making good posts, of which IMHO you have made many.