What is the NEW covenant

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AbigailZeke

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#21
Interesting, I will need to think on this, I figured we did not because they were not needed, The church is already established,. The signs were given to help build a new thing.
Yeah I see where you're coming from. I do think it's still needed because people the same problems from before are still here, like people are still suffering from diseases (terminal ones). But we've been hearing about testimonies of many people getting healed all over the world, so who knows it's already coming back or it's always been there and just we didn't hear of it? I don't know but yeah it's an interesting subject, it makes me wonder too.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#22
Yeah I see where you're coming from. I do think it's still needed because people the same problems from before are still here, like people are still suffering from diseases (terminal ones). But we've been hearing about testimonies of many people getting healed all over the world, so who knows it's already coming back or it's always been there and just we didn't hear of it? I don't know but yeah it's an interesting subject, it makes me wonder too.

Oh Forgive me, I see healings all the time through prayer. Corporate Prayer is a powerful thing.

I thought you were talking about gifts like tongues and all.

 

AbigailZeke

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#23
Ah, yeah I was talking more about healing, well specifically seeing people raised from the dead lol. But that's an entirely different subject now that I think about it.

And Oh, I have experienced tongues for myself. In my old church when I was a teenager and there was an interpretation. It was surreal. Both me and my sister were speaking in tongues in church and when we finished, someone started translating them. It happened in two different churches we used to go to. And both times there interpretations. The first time was very specific to what our church was going through. The second time was very general but still holds true, the woman translating only repeatedly said "My children, my children, I love you very much" that was it over and over. Back when I was a pentecostal many things were happening lol.

That was a decade ago though. NOW I don't think its needed anymore. At least, I don't need it for myself anymore. Tongues are another subject I'm not really sure what to believe yet, because some say you can do it willingly. My experience was not of my own will. It's just literally words started flowing out of my mouth.

Oh Forgive me, I see healings all the time through prayer. Corporate Prayer is a powerful thing.

I thought you were talking about gifts like tongues and all.

 
Mar 14, 2011
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#24
Ah, yeah I was talking more about healing, well specifically seeing people raised from the dead lol. But that's an entirely different subject now that I think about it.

And Oh, I have experienced tongues for myself. In my old church when I was a teenager and there was an interpretation. It was surreal. Both me and my sister were speaking in tongues in church and when we finished, someone started translating them. It happened in two different churches we used to go to. And both times there interpretations. The first time was very specific to what our church was going through. The second time was very general but still holds true, the woman translating only repeatedly said "My children, my children, I love you very much" that was it over and over. Back when I was a pentecostal many things were happening lol.

That was a decade ago though. NOW I don't think its needed anymore. At least, I don't need it for myself anymore. Tongues are another subject I'm not really sure what to believe yet, because some say you can do it willingly. My experience was not of my own will. It's just literally words started flowing out of my mouth.
I think God uses gifts when needed, they are not completely dead, But your right, thats for another thread..lol Lets not get yours off topic. i think you have a good one.. people need to hear.
 

AbigailZeke

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#25
The gifts of dreams and vision was also very real for the pentecostal churches I went to. At one time my pastor knew I wasn't going to bible college before I even decided that I wasn't going to. When I told my parents I wasn't going to enrol at a bible college anymore, my parents told me that our pastor already gave them a heads up lol.

Dreams were VERY real (and I think still are). I mentioned in one of my posts here before that my mom and I had related dreams two consecutive nights, mine was symbolic a black coffin outside our house. In my mom's dream a woman was telling her what my dream meant, that it was basically my father's "deepest and darkest secret that he wanted to bury" without telling my mom. It was a three love affair he had with a family friend of ours. So yeah, I do believe these things are still happening today.
 

AbigailZeke

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#26
I think God uses gifts when needed, they are not completely dead, But your right, thats for another thread..lol Lets not get yours off topic. i think you have a good one.. people need to hear.
Yes LOL, now I'm getting carried away. Okay okay, back to the new covenant lol.
 

AbigailZeke

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#28
Because it's unlike the old covenant lol.

In speaking of a new covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

It'd be nice if someone starts a thread on the different types of offerings and how they all show Jesus, that's something I really want to learn too.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#29
Because it's unlike the old covenant lol.

In speaking of a new covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

It'd be nice if someone starts a thread on the different types of offerings and how they all show Jesus, that's something I really want to learn too.
I did a study on that once, I will see if I can find it.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#30
in speaking of the new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13 ESV
New – There is probably no verse more loudly proclaimed by those that assert the pre-eminence of the dispensation of grace than this one. George Guthrie’s analysis is typical. According to him, this passage “implies that the first covenant was flawed . . . the new covenant will not be like the Sinai covenant made at the time of the exodus. God’s rejection of the old covenant is explained in terms of the lack of faithfulness to the covenant on the part of its recipients.”[1] Perhaps you have heard something similar. Israel failed to keep the old covenant so God brought about the Church and gave it the new covenant of grace rather than law.
The problem is that this Greek word, kainos, doesn’t mean something that wasn’t there before, something brand new, something only just now appearing. That would be the Greek word neos (like the derivative Neo in the movie The Matrix). But kainos means “what is new in nature, different from the usual, impressive, superior.” In other words, since we also know that the reference to Jeremiah points us toward the Hebrew hadash, the use of kainos in this text cannot mean something that has never before been seen or that is new in time or origin. It must mean (as does hadash) something that is different than the customary, something that is superior to what was before, something striking or unusual. As Behm remarks, kainos “is a leading theological term in apocalyptic promise: a new heaven and a new earth . . . the new name . . .the new song; ‘Behold, I make all things new.’”[2]
Without careful distinction between neos and kainos, it is easy to read this text and many others as if they express what has never been revealed before, what is now completely novel in creation. Reading the text this way, as if it used neos, would allow us to claim that that the work of Yeshua has no Old Testament parallels, that grace is an original New Testament concept and that any attempt to return to the “old” Torah denies the radically-new development of the Christian worldview. But if I realize that kainos means “impressive, superior or different than expected,” then I see the text not as an abrogation of Torah but rather as its re-statementin the life of the Messiah. This, of course, is anticipated in Jeremiah. The amazing difference between the “old” and the “new” is not a revision in God’s instructions but the unimaginable difference in the delivery of those instructions – God will write them on our hearts!
So what do we do with the word “obsolete” in this text? The Greek is pepalaioken, from palai, which means “aged, earlier, past, ancient, venerable, antiquated.” “Obsolete” is a possible interpretation of the word, but not in this context. First, if this author follows LXX usage, then palaioo and its derivatives carry no theological weight. They are simply expression of things that are older, not useless. And secondly, the occurrence here is found also in Hebrews 1:11 which quotes Psalm 102:25 where the Hebrew term is le-panim, meaning simply “before” or “of old [times].” Seesemann argues that its “only” significant theological usage is in this verse where he claims it means “that God, by setting up the new covenant, has declared the old to be outdated.”[3] But since there are no other theologically significant uses of palaioo, how can Seesemannconfidently assert that this is the only one. He can do so only because he reads this usage in terms of a pre-existing paradigm that tells him the “new” covenant has replaced the “old.” Otherwise, on the basis of the meaning of the word itself in other occurrences, he would have to conclude that the author is simply telling us that what Yeshua did shows Yeshua’s work to be newer than the original which is ancient (but not outdated) and will eventually pass away (when heaven and earth pass away).
So, what’s “new” to you?

https://www.skipmoen.com/2013/04/ignoring-the-greek-text/
 

AbigailZeke

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#32
Gandalf, my brother, this guy is talking about something else. (Emphasis below)

Even back in Moses' time, God already had (a picture of) Jesus paying for our sins, the sin offerings, burnt offerings, trespass offerings - it was NEVER our ability (or inability) to keep the law. It was the offerings that saved the Jews from judgement.

Because if they did keep the law perfectly (the guy below is making the assumption that God gave us a new covenant because we are unable to keep the old covenant with God - we never were qualified to keep it in the first place), why then did they have to offer daily sacrifices still?

in speaking of the new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13 ESV
New – There is probably no verse more loudly proclaimed by those that assert the pre-eminence of the dispensation of grace than this one. George Guthrie’s analysis is typical. According to him, this passage “implies that the first covenant was flawed . . . the new covenant will not be like the Sinai covenant made at the time of the exodus. God’s rejection of the old covenant is explained in terms of the lack of faithfulness to the covenant on the part of its recipients.”[1] Perhaps you have heard something similar. Israel failed to keep the old covenant so God brought about the Church and gave it the new covenant of grace rather than law.
The problem is that this Greek word, kainos, doesn’t mean something that wasn’t there before, something brand new, something only just now appearing. That would be the Greek word neos (like the derivative Neo in the movie The Matrix). But kainos means “what is new in nature, different from the usual, impressive, superior.” In other words, since we also know that the reference to Jeremiah points us toward the Hebrew hadash, the use of kainos in this text cannot mean something that has never before been seen or that is new in time or origin. It must mean (as does hadash) something that is different than the customary, something that is superior to what was before, something striking or unusual. As Behm remarks, kainos “is a leading theological term in apocalyptic promise: a new heaven and a new earth . . . the new name . . .the new song; ‘Behold, I make all things new.’”[2]
Without careful distinction between neos and kainos, it is easy to read this text and many others as if they express what has never been revealed before, what is now completely novel in creation. Reading the text this way, as if it used neos, would allow us to claim that that the work of Yeshua has no Old Testament parallels, that grace is an original New Testament concept and that any attempt to return to the “old” Torah denies the radically-new development of the Christian worldview. But if I realize that kainos means “impressive, superior or different than expected,” then I see the text not as an abrogation of Torah but rather as its re-statementin the life of the Messiah. This, of course, is anticipated in Jeremiah. The amazing difference between the “old” and the “new” is not a revision in God’s instructions but the unimaginable difference in the delivery of those instructions – God will write them on our hearts!
So what do we do with the word “obsolete” in this text? The Greek is pepalaioken, from palai, which means “aged, earlier, past, ancient, venerable, antiquated.” “Obsolete” is a possible interpretation of the word, but not in this context. First, if this author follows LXX usage, then palaioo and its derivatives carry no theological weight. They are simply expression of things that are older, not useless. And secondly, the occurrence here is found also in Hebrews 1:11 which quotes Psalm 102:25 where the Hebrew term is le-panim, meaning simply “before” or “of old [times].” Seesemann argues that its “only” significant theological usage is in this verse where he claims it means “that God, by setting up the new covenant, has declared the old to be outdated.”[3] But since there are no other theologically significant uses of palaioo, how can Seesemannconfidently assert that this is the only one. He can do so only because he reads this usage in terms of a pre-existing paradigm that tells him the “new” covenant has replaced the “old.” Otherwise, on the basis of the meaning of the word itself in other occurrences, he would have to conclude that the author is simply telling us that what Yeshua did shows Yeshua’s work to be newer than the original which is ancient (but not outdated) and will eventually pass away (when heaven and earth pass away).
So, what’s “new” to you?

https://www.skipmoen.com/2013/04/ignoring-the-greek-text/
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2015
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#33
Gandalf, my brother, this guy is talking about something else. (Emphasis below)

Even back in Moses' time, God already had (a picture of) Jesus paying for our sins, the sin offerings, burnt offerings, trespass offerings - it was NEVER our ability (or inability) to keep the law. It was the offerings that saved the Jews from judgement.

Because if they did keep the law perfectly (the guy below is making the assumption that God gave us a new covenant because we are unable to keep the old covenant with God - we never were qualified to keep it in the first place), why then did they have to offer daily sacrifices still?
Sis, we have to understand that the law was never given to Israel for their salvation but it was a marriage proposal from God Himself (ketubah). They were called to obedience.

We do not have to sacrifice the lamb anymore because the perfect lamb was slain. We can't crucify Jesus every day friend. We are the bride He is the groom. The question you have to ask yourself is do you think God will change His marriage proposal to you and me :) :confused: .
 
Oct 16, 2017
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#34
Okay, so just in contrast, the old covenant, no, the first one was called the Edenic covenant, right. In the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were free to do everything except eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In that covenant, Adam and Eve were enjoying all of God's perfect blessing. The agreement was that they do not eat that golden apple and they can basically do anything.

It makes sense that the serpent tempted Eve, not to murder her husband (there was no way Eve could commit adultery lol) but to eat the fruit. Of all the fruits. You see, the temptation was for Adam and Eve to break the covenant between man and God.

So by eating the fruit, curse came upon all of us.

Then came the Noahic covenant... then the Abrahamic covenant. In this covenant Abraham was called righteous by faith.

Okay, so it gets a bit controversial here. Was Abraham ever punished for 1) lying to the king about his wife 2) for not listening to God when God told him to leave his family behind (he brought Lot... a LOT of problems) 3) basically everything else he did wrong in his life? Nope. Because this covenant hinges on faith. As long as Abraham believed what God had told him 1) that he would have a son 2) that he would be blessed - God remained faithful. EVEN if Abraham slept with Hagar to have a son (however, the consequences are very severe that to this day Israel is still battling Ishmael).

Then, of course, the famous Mosaic covenant. This is where God gave us the 10 commandments to keep to be blessed (whereas in Eden, Adam and Eve just had to not eat the forbidden fruit, and in Abrahamic, Abraham just had to keep believing) in the time of Moses people had to keep the 10 commandments.

BUT GUESS WHAT. As soon as the commandments were out, God ordered Moses to offer sacrifices because HE KNEW... HE KNEW that no one could keep all 10.

THEN JESUS CAME AND RAISED THE STANDARD. The law of God is not just outward (brought down to the standards of men by the Jews of that time) BUT hey, HEY, God's law is perfect that even you just IMAGINE a naked woman, you're already committing adultery. Nope, far more impossible for ANYONE on earth to actually keep.

BUT GUESS WHAT AGAIN. GOD KNEW ALL THIS which was why Jesus came to earth in the first place. TO BE THE SACRIFICE. Sound familiar? Yes, go back to Mosaic covenant and you can see how God made a way for the jews of Mosaic time to STILL BE BLESSED despite of not being able to keep the law.

There are.. hmm. 5 (?) offerings. Burnt offerings, trespass offerings, sin offerings, etc (I don't know the rest okay!)

So this is what happened when Jesus came, instead HE became the sacrifice. HE BECAME THE SACRIFICE once and for all. ONCE AND FOR ALL. Where in the time of Moses, sacrifices were offered daily because people sinned daily, Jesus died and paid for our sins ONCE AND FOR ALL. FOR YESTERDAY TODAY AND TOMORROW. Yes, all our sins our forgiven.

So the new covenant, doesn't require anything from man but to BELIEVE

Believe in what?
That Jesus exists? Even demons believe that. What does the new covenant say? That GOD IS MERCIFUL TO OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS AND OUR SINS HE REMEMBERS NO MORE. How? Because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice and satisfied the righteous judgement of God. Believe in that and you will be saved. This is the new covenant. In a nutshell.
AZ
You seem to have studied the covenants.
You say that Jesus came to raise the bar.
If He came to raise the bar, how could you then say that we are no longer required to do anything but believe?
You youself said even demons believe in Jesus.

So, What do you mean by believe?
And
What's the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?

If we're still required to obey, by Jesus Himself, because He raised the bar, then what's the difference if we're still to obey Him?

Are you saying we're no longer required to obey God?
Mathew 7:19
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#35
Gandalf, my brother, this guy is talking about something else. (Emphasis below)

Even back in Moses' time, God already had (a picture of) Jesus paying for our sins, the sin offerings, burnt offerings, trespass offerings - it was NEVER our ability (or inability) to keep the law. It was the offerings that saved the Jews from judgement.

Because if they did keep the law perfectly (the guy below is making the assumption that God gave us a new covenant because we are unable to keep the old covenant with God - we never were qualified to keep it in the first place), why then did they have to offer daily sacrifices still?
I think there was good in that post. New did actually mean bettter or more superior ( I have heard this before)

Abraham was saved by faith, Salvation has always been by faith. The law never saved anyone.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#36
AZ
You seem to have studied the covenants.
You say that Jesus came to raise the bar.
If He came to raise the bar, how could you then say that we are no longer required to do anything but believe?
You youself said even demons believe in Jesus.

So, What do you mean by believe?
And
What's the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?

If we're still required to obey, by Jesus Himself, because He raised the bar, then what's the difference if we're still to obey Him?

Are you saying we're no longer required to obey God?
Mathew 7:19
if i may


I think what she meant is that Jesus raised the bar, meaning the law was set in stone, but it was not complete Jesus said the bar for righteousness according to works is far greater than the law required

As for believe, Faith is the standard. mental agreement (belief) has never saved anyone. Demons believe, but they proved along time ago they had no faiht in God at all. Just believing jesus is God and he died on a cross is not enough.

Obedience, what does it look like? How is. It carried out.. This is where the new covenant also gets it better. it is not by obeying rules. It is by seeking after God and serving others.


 
D

Depleted

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#37
So, for the longest time, since I got baptised at 15 until 2 years ago, I believed that the new covenant meant new commandments:

Mark 12:30-21

"...and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

BUT, that's not actually the case anymore. The new covenant IS all about God and how He made the perfect Way to deliver us from judgement. No wonder it's called GOOD NEWS!

Jeremiah 31:33-34

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


----

Of the many many takeaways from the scripture above, one of my absolute favourite is knowing that it is in our knowing HIS FORGIVENESS AND REMEMBERING OUR SINS NO MORE (for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more) that WE WILL KNOW THE LORD.

It is neither by the knowledge nor the keeping of the law that we can become His people and He our God. But because HE HAS FORGIVEN OUR INIQUITIES AND REMEMBERS OUR SINS NO MORE AND WHEN WE KNOW THIS, WE WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE.

Sorry for screaming but seriously if you know you're forever free, this is an understatement.

God is not hot and cold, happy with you today and mad with you tomorrow. No. Your sins He remembers no more not because you tried to become a better person BY UPHOLDING THE LAW but because Jesus' blood was spilled ON YOUR BEHALF. Yes, I'm talking about imputed righteousness.
... or, differently put, but the same thing you're saying.

The old covenant was a contract between God and Man, but one side of that contract broke his word, so broke the covenant -- Man.

The new covenant is the same contract, but between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God doesn't break his word, so it is permanent. The Father gave the terms, the Son enacted the terms perfectly, substituting himself for us, (imputed righteousness, as you said), and the Holy Spirit gives us what is needed to believe and act upon that belief.

The Law is really what God looks like. We want to look like him, because he gave us that want/need. So the Law gives us understanding of what God means by "good." We didn't get a photo of a buff body to put in front of our workout machine every day, in hopes of looking like that. We got his Law to see what he looks like to work toward being more like him. And we got the Holy Spirit because without the Lord on our side, we couldn't pick up the first one-pound weight to start our workout. We wouldn't even know what a one-pound weight looks like, if the Lord didn't give us what we need. lol
 
D

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#38
Hello AbigailZeke,

Nice to meet you here. You argument above is for forgiveness of sin in order to commit sin. The promise of the NEW Covenant is only to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the Word of God.

There is NO truth in what you proclaim and bares witness you do not know the Word of God. The scriptures clearly say that he that says "I KNOW HIM" and DOES NOT Keep God's commandments is a LIAR and the truth is NOT in him (1 John 2:2-4).

The New Covenant is indeed God's LAW (10 commandments) written on the fleshly tables of the heart no longer on stone. Free to LOVE through FAITH. LOVE is the FULFILLING of the LAW to those who walk by FAITH in the SPIRIT of God.

It is true we are saved by GRACE through FAITH and not of ourselves it is a GIFT of GOD and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. IF your FAITH however does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE then your FAITH is DEAD and you are STILL in your SINS (James 2:18; 20; 26)

IF you are still in your SINS you do not know HIM who LOVES all and need to SEEK HIM in REPENTANCE and FORGIVENESS.

Forgiveness is ONLY those that BELIEVE FOLLOW the WORD of GOD. If you say you BELIEVE and do not FOLLOW you DECEIVE yourself (James 1:22)

You say ONLY BELIEVE? The DEVILS BELIEVE but they do NOT FOLLOW. In this the children of God and the children of the DEVIL are known. Whosoever does not FOLLOW God's Word is NOT from GOD neither knows HIM (1 John 3:3-10)

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten ( Exodus 20:8-11 ) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness w e are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

This is why Jesus says If you love me, keep my commandments....

Love and the fruit of OBEDIENCE by FAITH and is a sign of those who follow and love the Lamb (Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; Rom 13:8-10)
Helpful hint: The second you tell anyone they have no truth, only you do, is also the second everyone stops thinking only you hold truth.

Hard to believe, but the purpose of this site isn't to enjoy a good argument.
 

Marcelo

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Feb 4, 2016
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#39
LoveGodForever said:
Love and the fruit of OBEDIENCE by FAITH and is a sign of those who follow and love the Lamb (Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; Rom 13:8-10)
If we keep the Law we are actually DISOBEYING God.

1O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?
 

AbigailZeke

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Mar 11, 2016
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#40
... or, differently put, but the same thing you're saying.

The old covenant was a contract between God and Man, but one side of that contract broke his word, so broke the covenant -- Man.

The new covenant is the same contract, but between God the Father, God the Son
, and God the Holy Spirit. God doesn't break his word, so it is permanent. The Father gave the terms, the Son enacted the terms perfectly, substituting himself for us, (imputed righteousness, as you said), and the Holy Spirit gives us what is needed to believe and act upon that belief.

The Law is really what God looks like. We want to look like him, because he gave us that want/need. So the Law gives us understanding of what God means by "good." We didn't get a photo of a buff body to put in front of our workout machine every day, in hopes of looking like that. We got his Law to see what he looks like to work toward being more like him. And we got the Holy Spirit because without the Lord on our side, we couldn't pick up the first one-pound weight to start our workout. We wouldn't even know what a one-pound weight looks like, if the Lord didn't give us what we need. lol
YES, AMEN. No wonder it's called good news. Jesus never fails, we're in safe hands.