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If we want to be strictly biblical, then being rich is to have more than "every need covered and a little more for good works".
It will depend on the specific country what amount of money is what the verse says. Depends on the prices level. What is the basic salary you can live normally on in the USA? Then add some little more and you have it, the right amount to be satisfied with.
It will depend on the specific country what amount of money is what the verse says. Depends on the prices level. What is the basic salary you can live normally on in the USA? Then add some little more and you have it, the right amount to be satisfied with.
D
What would you judge, (and broad-stroking this is acceptable, since who knows what the cost of living is in another part of the country, or world to not broad-stroke it), someone like John Pipper, R.C. Sproul, Billy Graham, Liam Goligher, (sorry, only one I can think of from your part of the world, even though I have no idea when he left the UK lol), or even -- dare I say it -- Joseph Prince be worth salary wise? The commonality I'm going with was they are/were all either big-draw names, or pastors of big churches. (And, sorry, but Liam is still the only British name I could think of, but his current church has 1700 members. And the only reason it doesn't keep growing is because when it does, then they plant a church in a neighborhood, and many of the members leave to join that church.)
And, I have belong to a church too small to afford a pastor, but we paid four teaching elders $300 for their sermons, (giving each one weekend a month), because we know preparing for the sermon takes 30-35 hours of study, and all four had fulltime jobs. The pastoral care was something we all worked on together in one way or another, (including those four teaching elders volunteering and a few other teaching elders coming in to help with building maintenance), with our two ruling elders in charge of the basics of the church itself.
It really is hard to figure this out, since we often go with "if they're serving the Lord, they shouldn't expect to be paid," as too often a Christian phrase for, "I might get this for free."
And, I have belong to a church too small to afford a pastor, but we paid four teaching elders $300 for their sermons, (giving each one weekend a month), because we know preparing for the sermon takes 30-35 hours of study, and all four had fulltime jobs. The pastoral care was something we all worked on together in one way or another, (including those four teaching elders volunteering and a few other teaching elders coming in to help with building maintenance), with our two ruling elders in charge of the basics of the church itself.
It really is hard to figure this out, since we often go with "if they're serving the Lord, they shouldn't expect to be paid," as too often a Christian phrase for, "I might get this for free."
I understood Willie to be saying that if you do not give freely it is because you are too attached to your money... 
If your church had thousands of members and giving all to one person (pastor) would make him absurdly rich, nobody says that if you want to give your money to God, it must be to your pastor only.
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M
Couple of other points.
Most pastors don’t just work 9-5 Monday to Friday.
There is weekday meetings, Sunday services, evening meetings, home visits, hospital
visits. Meetings with people to discuss stuff, prep time for bible studies and services.
Then there are the bank holidays, and Christmas Easter when they work too.
Plus our pastors also do stuff like teen challenge, street angels, soup runs in middle
of the night. Teen weekend away, holiday clubs etc. They go way above and beyond
a 40 hour week.
Considering that many employers pay double time for weekend work or overtime,
would you expect your pastor to work at all hours for single rate.
And....pastors tithe too or give etc. I think people forget that.
Most pastors don’t just work 9-5 Monday to Friday.
There is weekday meetings, Sunday services, evening meetings, home visits, hospital
visits. Meetings with people to discuss stuff, prep time for bible studies and services.
Then there are the bank holidays, and Christmas Easter when they work too.
Plus our pastors also do stuff like teen challenge, street angels, soup runs in middle
of the night. Teen weekend away, holiday clubs etc. They go way above and beyond
a 40 hour week.
Considering that many employers pay double time for weekend work or overtime,
would you expect your pastor to work at all hours for single rate.
And....pastors tithe too or give etc. I think people forget that.
Our Lord was able to feed 5000 and 7000 with leftovers took up.. our Lord was able to pay due by sending one to open the fish’s mouth and take money out...
A fair wage would vary from country to country.. a Pastor should be paid enough to eat, abide, pay dues and share if needed.. neither rich or poor.. needs met.
I don’t know how the TV pastors sleep at night with their wage and lifestyles.
I guess they would say very well upon their luxury beds and wanting ever more dreams..
There was a time when I swallowed the idea they were Blessed and GOD loved them more as shown by their riches..
I now feel unworthy of my bread and digs knowing how our Lord lived.. humble and with His people.
A True Loving King loved by His people indeed.
Good question Depleted.. I don’t have a figure only a thought.
A fair wage would vary from country to country.. a Pastor should be paid enough to eat, abide, pay dues and share if needed.. neither rich or poor.. needs met.
I don’t know how the TV pastors sleep at night with their wage and lifestyles.
I guess they would say very well upon their luxury beds and wanting ever more dreams..
There was a time when I swallowed the idea they were Blessed and GOD loved them more as shown by their riches..
I now feel unworthy of my bread and digs knowing how our Lord lived.. humble and with His people.
A True Loving King loved by His people indeed.
Good question Depleted.. I don’t have a figure only a thought.
But such thinking would make the position of a pastor a normal work for money.
He should do the work because he wants to do that. If you like swimming and go swimming, you do need to be paid for that, its your free time activity.
Similarly, the pastor does not have to be paid for the time he reads his bible or talk with people about God.
He should do the work because he wants to do that. If you like swimming and go swimming, you do need to be paid for that, its your free time activity.
Similarly, the pastor does not have to be paid for the time he reads his bible or talk with people about God.
D
"Besides women and children." I count the women, children, and not-Israelites who joined them, and went with conservative. (Well, honestly, I went with a few biblical commentators and went with the most conservative figure. lol) I also checked out which cities in the US have that many people. The outflow from Egypt was roughly the size of all of Chicago. (Twice the size of Philly.)
That was one massive exodus!
That was one massive exodus!
Lynn,
I want to say again that I really appreciate you approaching this controversial issue fairly and honestly.
I think we obviously have all kinds of issues going on here:
we have conmen making fortunes, we have decent pastors suffering far below the salaries they really need, we have people in the middle making a reasonable sounding income, we have pastors making large armounts at large churches quite probably because they are truly just extraordinary and blessed accordingly, and we probably have pastors making large amounts at large churches just because they're greedy or their governing body is ridiculous.
I think we have all kinds of different things going on.
So what would be some biblical principles governing these issues?
1. If you don't feel something is right at your church, you can talk to the pastors and elders, and share your thoughts, and see how they respond.
2. If you feel convicted they are not acting biblically and responsibly with money, you can choose to leave.
3. What are some bible principles to tell IF the church is acting biblically and responsibly with money?
Maybe this is where we should focus the discussion, and I'll just offer a small starting place.
A. Since there is no prescribed amount set for a pastor's salary, we have to arrive at it some other way.
B. There seem to be 3 general ways, that I can think of, to asses a salary:
1) Look at PRACTICAL CIRCUMSTANCES:
What can your church afford, what does your pastor need to reasonably live, what do your people feel is reasonable, what amount above his necessities do you want to give to bless him for his faithfulness etc. etc.
2) Look at the HEARTS OF THE PASTORS & ELDERS:
Examine their hearts to if they are good-hearted in their monetary decisions, or just greedy.
3) Look at BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES about MONETARY PRIORITIES:
What are the most important things to spend money on, and what should our monetary priorities be.
(Keep in mind that all three of these areas, even "practical circumstance" are covered by biblical principles.)
C. Further notes on LOOKING AT THE HEARTS OF THE PASTORS & ELDERS.
(One of the 3 assessment methods extrapolated.)
1) - The Bible says we CAN knows someone's heart.. at least the general direction of his heart.
2) - We can know someone's heart in 2 ways:
a) Examine the FRUITS OF HIS LIFE
We can examine spiritual fruits like his character and behavior, and physical fruits like accomplishments in ministry .. evangelizing, teaching, discipling, outreach, missions, etc)
b) Examining his WORDS
The bible says the mouth speaks out of the heart, so a person's words show his heart... if we listen long enough, and carefully enough.)
* These are a few quick thoughts about BIBLE PRINCIPLES governing this topic.
* I'm sure you guys can come up with a lot more.
I want to say again that I really appreciate you approaching this controversial issue fairly and honestly.
I think we obviously have all kinds of issues going on here:
we have conmen making fortunes, we have decent pastors suffering far below the salaries they really need, we have people in the middle making a reasonable sounding income, we have pastors making large armounts at large churches quite probably because they are truly just extraordinary and blessed accordingly, and we probably have pastors making large amounts at large churches just because they're greedy or their governing body is ridiculous.
I think we have all kinds of different things going on.
So what would be some biblical principles governing these issues?
1. If you don't feel something is right at your church, you can talk to the pastors and elders, and share your thoughts, and see how they respond.
2. If you feel convicted they are not acting biblically and responsibly with money, you can choose to leave.
3. What are some bible principles to tell IF the church is acting biblically and responsibly with money?
Maybe this is where we should focus the discussion, and I'll just offer a small starting place.
A. Since there is no prescribed amount set for a pastor's salary, we have to arrive at it some other way.
B. There seem to be 3 general ways, that I can think of, to asses a salary:
1) Look at PRACTICAL CIRCUMSTANCES:
What can your church afford, what does your pastor need to reasonably live, what do your people feel is reasonable, what amount above his necessities do you want to give to bless him for his faithfulness etc. etc.
2) Look at the HEARTS OF THE PASTORS & ELDERS:
Examine their hearts to if they are good-hearted in their monetary decisions, or just greedy.
3) Look at BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES about MONETARY PRIORITIES:
What are the most important things to spend money on, and what should our monetary priorities be.
(Keep in mind that all three of these areas, even "practical circumstance" are covered by biblical principles.)
C. Further notes on LOOKING AT THE HEARTS OF THE PASTORS & ELDERS.
(One of the 3 assessment methods extrapolated.)
1) - The Bible says we CAN knows someone's heart.. at least the general direction of his heart.
2) - We can know someone's heart in 2 ways:
a) Examine the FRUITS OF HIS LIFE
We can examine spiritual fruits like his character and behavior, and physical fruits like accomplishments in ministry .. evangelizing, teaching, discipling, outreach, missions, etc)
b) Examining his WORDS
The bible says the mouth speaks out of the heart, so a person's words show his heart... if we listen long enough, and carefully enough.)
* These are a few quick thoughts about BIBLE PRINCIPLES governing this topic.
* I'm sure you guys can come up with a lot more.
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"If around 2 million people left Egypt, when the entire population has been estimated at around 3 to 4.5 million, it would have been noticed, and would have resounded in Egyptian records.
That said, as the Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen points out, the Hebrew word for thousand, eleph, can mean different things depending upon context. It can even denote a group/clan or a leader/chief.
Elsewhere in the bible, "eleph" could not possibly mean "a thousand”. For example: 1 Kings 20:30 mentions a wall falling in Aphek that killed 27,000 men. If we translate eleph as leader, the text more sensibly says that 27 officers were killed by the falling wall.
By that logic, some scholars propose that the Exodus actually consisted of about 20,000 people."
read more: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713849
That said, as the Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen points out, the Hebrew word for thousand, eleph, can mean different things depending upon context. It can even denote a group/clan or a leader/chief.
Elsewhere in the bible, "eleph" could not possibly mean "a thousand”. For example: 1 Kings 20:30 mentions a wall falling in Aphek that killed 27,000 men. If we translate eleph as leader, the text more sensibly says that 27 officers were killed by the falling wall.
By that logic, some scholars propose that the Exodus actually consisted of about 20,000 people."
read more: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713849
I think too that the Bible does not give specifics on what to pay or not pay a pastor. But Paul clearly teaches that a pastor should be paid/deserves wages. "Do not muzzle the ox that treads out the grain" etc.
Yet Paul himself chose not to work for a salary, and seemed hesitant at times even to accept money. This was because for his situation he felt it was best for the gospel's sake that he did not take money.
I think the idea of going to school and studying in seminary (or "cemetery"?) to become a pastor in order to make money and make a living is not a New Testament idea. I don't think I would want to be a part of a church where the pastor(s) is the main clog (yes, I spelled that right!) in the wheel and all the church members sit in the pews with the pastor being paid to do all the work.
I think a better model is that when a pastor is needed, the local congregation finds a qualified man from within its own members and ordains him to be a pastor. Probably two or three pastors and two or three deacons should be the best model for a church of 75-200 members. Then these men take leadership and responsibility, but all of the church is involved in ourtreach, sharing, teaching, and caring for one another. It seems best that the ordained have some secular work, but are also given some financial support from the church.
Yet Paul himself chose not to work for a salary, and seemed hesitant at times even to accept money. This was because for his situation he felt it was best for the gospel's sake that he did not take money.
I think the idea of going to school and studying in seminary (or "cemetery"?) to become a pastor in order to make money and make a living is not a New Testament idea. I don't think I would want to be a part of a church where the pastor(s) is the main clog (yes, I spelled that right!
) in the wheel and all the church members sit in the pews with the pastor being paid to do all the work.I think a better model is that when a pastor is needed, the local congregation finds a qualified man from within its own members and ordains him to be a pastor. Probably two or three pastors and two or three deacons should be the best model for a church of 75-200 members. Then these men take leadership and responsibility, but all of the church is involved in ourtreach, sharing, teaching, and caring for one another. It seems best that the ordained have some secular work, but are also given some financial support from the church.
Such a large church would surely have more than one pastor? I agree, though, that giving to your pastor is not the only way to financially support the church Or even to give. James said that true religion was to look after widows and orphans (aside from keeping yourself unpolluted by the world) Feeding the poor, clothing the needy, providing shelter for the homeless would also be acceptable, I imagine (or supporting organizations that do such)
Or even to give. James said that true religion was to look after widows and orphans (aside from keeping yourself unpolluted by the world) Feeding the poor, clothing the needy, providing shelter for the homeless would also be acceptable, I imagine (or supporting organizations that do such)