What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Absolutely]

look it up where. what. i agree the early church fathers held many differing beliefs. just like we do today no two persons agree lolz

It took me 30 secomds to find several sites.
You should check out a couple of them.

"The Early Fathers
A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were
predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts.19 Clear examples in the writings of
Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120-
202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and
Lactantius (260-330)make this understanding impossible to challenge successfully


And this;

"In the end, no one can produce a clear statement of patristic eschatology
regarding the rapture. What can be concluded is the following:
• The early fathers placed strong emphasis upon imminency.
• They early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-
year kingdom to follow.
• A type of imminent intratribulationism (Crutchfield) or imminent
posttribulationism (Walvoord)35
with occasional pretribulational inferences
was believed.36
• The early fathers understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times
of general Roman persecution that they experienced, rather than a specific
fulfillment of future tribulational wrath."

 

[Absolutely]

....but what is missing????

Not only the catholics burning pretrib heretics and their writings,but Israel becoming a nation.

Postribs leave out a ghastly amount of research and knowledge.

 

[presidente]

Once again,a postrib rapture stance ignoring the pretrib verses.

Once again a post like this that does not present evidence

 

[Melach]

It took me 30 secomds to find several sites.
You should check out a couple of them.

"The Early Fathers
A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were
predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts.19 Clear examples in the writings of
Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120-
202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and
Lactantius (260-330)make this understanding impossible to challenge successfully


And this;

"In the end, no one can produce a clear statement of patristic eschatology
regarding the rapture. What can be concluded is the following:
• The early fathers placed strong emphasis upon imminency.
• They early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-
year kingdom to follow.
• A type of imminent intratribulationism (Crutchfield) or imminent
posttribulationism (Walvoord)35
with occasional pretribulational inferences
was believed.36
• The early fathers understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times
of general Roman persecution that they experienced, rather than a specific
fulfillment of future tribulational wrath."

i agree with this from what ive read of them.

....but what is missing????

Not only the catholics burning pretrib heretics and their writings,but Israel becoming a nation.

Postribs leave out a ghastly amount of research and knowledge.

when did pre-trib heretics ever were burned or their writings? it was so unpopular before the 1800s you would have to look hard to find any lolz. and pre-trib was popularized in the easy living western world where no persecution exists other than people caling you names which is no persecution really at all.

 

[Melach]

Once again a post like this that does not present evidence

im still waiting for that pre-trib verse lolz.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus must have been stupid to point back to the Serpent being lifted in the wilderness as a SIGN....carry on devaluing the truth and showing a lack of knowlege.....the signs, scriptures and pictures are there...MISSED by them and you

He is hyper pauline.
Their doctrine HINGES on paul only.
They say Jesus and the apostles preached a different gospel.
No joke.

So,you see it(the bible) as the word of God.
They see paul only as the word of God.

 

[Absolutely]

i agree with this from what ive read of them.

when did pre-trib heretics ever were burned or their writings? it was so unpopular before the 1800s you would have to look hard to find any lolz. and pre-trib was popularized in the easy living western world where no persecution exists other than people caling you names which is no persecution really at all.

The catholics burned entire villages.

Pretrib rapture was but one such grievance.
Again,look it up yourself.

 

[DeighAnn]

What does Gods Word say


Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is the first thing mentioned "a taking out of the church?" Well, clearly not here.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

On this very thread we have many saying they come in His name, calling themselves Christians,
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

We are hearing these things today, so we know the end is not yet. Any mention of a "pre coming for the church?"
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Are these things happening today in the world. Any mention of a "church rapture?" No
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Right here before your very eyes we have those with false prophecies. Any mention of a "church rapture" here? No
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Any mention of a "church rapture" here??
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Can we all admit this is almost complete?? Internet, Satellite Tv...
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Any "rapture" here??
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

What are we being told to do when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place? Any rapture here? Or are we being told it is time to escape out of there??
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

The return of the Lord is coming quickly. Any rapture here?
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

A perfect description of an UNFAITHFUL, went off with another (Satan) though betrothed to Christ (as a virgin), Idolatress. To late for a "rapture" now.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day

Why, because The True Christ is returning as Lord of lords and King of kings
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be


Will it be a 7 year period??? NO, NO it will not. How do we know for sure, for positive, no way around it?? GOD TELLS US RIGHT HERE.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
( Satan is stealing souls and there would be no "flesh and soul" virgins left to be "changed" at Christs return if He didn't shorten the time. This statement should SCREAM at you to "put on the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan")

If the church is "raptured" to WHOM is HE SPEAKING??
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there believe it not.

How good is the "deceiver"?
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[Absolutely]

Right, if YOU can find Jesus all through the OT, it MUST mean that those born before Jesus must also be able find him there too.

Did not Isaiah and david describe him in detail?

 

[DeighAnn]

Who are they referring to?? Not Christ obviously.
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Who is going to see the return of our Lord and Saviour? EVERYONE. Has our Lord and Saviour mentioned any gathering of the church before this return? Have we seen that Satan is here?
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

And now we are told of HIS return. NO "pre" RETURN mentioned or even hinted at. And heaven is changing, and "stars" are falling from heaven to earth. Why? Because it is the Lords Day and the Millennium is beginning and all who have ever been will be on earth for the Lords Day. Not one soul has died. NOT ONE. Not one soul will die until Judgement at the end of the 1000 yrs.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Who will be on earth? Those who overcame, endured until the end not being deceived and not taking the mark of the beast AND those who were deceived and the wicked, who took the mark of the beast.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


WHEN were both the good and bad figs planted???
Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh

Who is going to see these things come to pass??
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

And are we told of a "pre trib" ANYTHING for Gods people???
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

ANYONE KNOW right now?
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Are we given more details about what it will be like before His return?
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(who was on earth during the days before flood of Noahs time? THE FALLEN ANGELS who left their habitation, the reason for the flood. Who is kicked out of Heaven with Satan? the 7000?? fallen angels)


With Satan being here before Christs return, Who then is taken? Surely not one who is told to overcome and endure to the end.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Are we told to watch for all these events we have just been given? Why? So we know what time it is.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

If we don't watch and aren't aware what will happen?
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Is there to be an hour of temptation??
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Are you getting the "MEAT" of the Word? Have you gotten off the milk and started going deeper into the Word? I think we are in a due season RIGHT NOW.
Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?


Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Matthew 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

If there was a "pre tribulation rapture" What is this verse about???
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming
Matthew 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken

And what happens to those who don't know and teach falsely?
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Absolutely]

You can't change the minds of those who want to "anticipate revelation".

They assume that whatever they understand now, thanks to the passage of time, must have been understood by everyone, in time past.

I also am appalled by the need of the paul onlys to nulify the other books.

 

[Absolutely]

JESUS left very very clear saying: Mat;24.v.22-25

22 And except those days (1260 days and more 1290 days - God's predetermined deadlines that will not be exceeded) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE the very elect. --->Because the elects will be living within of great tribulation.

JESUS warned:

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Yeah he was confused in using lot and noah.

That watching,be ready,and waiting for his coming was also to be disregarded

 

[Absolutely]

Once again a post like this that does not present evidence

Lol
No interaction of my verses.
When you mock by repeating my claim,you are unable to answer it.

 

[Absolutely]

What does Gods Word say


Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is the first thing mentioned "a taking out of the church?" Well, clearly not here.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

On this very thread we have many saying they come in His name, calling themselves Christians,
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

We are hearing these things today, so we know the end is not yet. Any mention of a "pre coming for the church?"
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Are these things happening today in the world. Any mention of a "church rapture?" No
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Right here before your very eyes we have those with false prophecies. Any mention of a "church rapture" here? No
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Any mention of a "church rapture" here??
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Can we all admit this is almost complete?? Internet, Satellite Tv...
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Any "rapture" here??
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

What are we being told to do when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place? Any rapture here? Or are we being told it is time to escape out of there??
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

The return of the Lord is coming quickly. Any rapture here?
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

A perfect description of an UNFAITHFUL, went off with another (Satan) though betrothed to Christ (as a virgin), Idolatress. To late for a "rapture" now.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day

Why, because The True Christ is returning as Lord of lords and King of kings
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be


Will it be a 7 year period??? NO, NO it will not. How do we know for sure, for positive, no way around it?? GOD TELLS US RIGHT HERE.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
( Satan is stealing souls and there would be no "flesh and soul" virgins left to be "changed" at Christs return if He didn't shorten the time. This statement should SCREAM at you to "put on the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan")

If the church is "raptured" to WHOM is HE SPEAKING??
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there believe it not.

How good is the "deceiver"?
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

""On this very thread we have many saying they come in His name, calling themselves Christians,
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.""


Lol
POT < > KETTLE

 

[Absolutely]

""I guess the point of this thread is: IF someone asked you: "Hey, show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible?" WHERE would you take them? What would be your GO-TO verse(s)?""

lots of them.

but nothing at all about a postrib rapture.

.....nothing

 

[CS1]

Which one do you believe in? One or Two?

AS you know today is the day of salvation. There is not one day promised to us. I can die today so, I must be ready to see the Lord today! There is nothing saying I will be here if or when the Rapture happens. I must be ready today and now. That being said every Christian should be waiting patently for the Lord return and working til HE comes. I am looking UP for my redemption is coming soon. I am a Pretrib gut too

 

[CS1]

There is no debate. There are two raptures.

Please remember UC Berkley and Word of God are not compatible LOL Just saying. Liberal school.

 

[Melach]

The catholics burned entire villages.

Pretrib rapture was but one such grievance.
Again,look it up yourself.

i will look it up but im sure nothing is said of pre-trib rapture anywhere. they did burn villages.

 

[DeighAnn]

Something I have found with false doctrine is it ALWAYS having to be taken out of context. In Thess 4 the subject is not the church, the subject is "Where are the dead". Paul tells them don't be like those who are have no knowledge and think death of the flesh is the end but be glad that God, our Father is the father of THE LIVING, and to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, just hopefully on the right side.
Anyway, gonna take them all one by one and go above and below "verses" to get to the TRUTH OF WHAT GOD IS TELLING US.


John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come so now I say to you.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
And I believe pointing out false doctrine no matter how it might hurt the ego, saves souls. The mystery of iniquity has been hard at work for thousands of years, twisting Gods Word to render it void, to make anyone believe in the free and easy ride. And rest assured it doesn't win you any friends, but when the Holy Spirit will speak through Gods elect, these are the truths that will come clear.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Was this a lesson for us perhaps??

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Any word of WHEN anyone will occupy??

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am, there ye may be also.
Is there any separation of "peoples" Any mention of a "special visit for just?? the church??"

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest and how can we know the way?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
How are we saved? justified? made righteous? Die tomorrow, and where do you go?

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
I have heard some say "Jesus will not go through the tribulation" The two witnesses will, the elect will, the very elect will, can you imagine not one of them having received the Holy Spirit? .

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
DOES EVERYONE REALIZE THAT JESUS HIMSELF NEVER ONCE MENTIONED A PRE TRIB OR ANY TIME "RAPTURE" OF ANYONE. Go, look through all the words Jesus ever said and you will find HE NEVER MENTIONS IT NOT ONCE. (I must be telling a lie you think, so don't believe me, go look yourself).

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

That seems pretty clear UNLESS you are following someone elses doctrine.

Greek
No longer much I will speak with you, comes for the of this world ruler, and in Me not he has nothing

 

[bluto]

It took me 30 secomds to find several sites.
You should check out a couple of them.

"The Early Fathers
A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were
predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts.19 Clear examples in the writings of
Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120-
202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and
Lactantius (260-330)make this understanding impossible to challenge successfully


And this;

"In the end, no one can produce a clear statement of patristic eschatology
regarding the rapture. What can be concluded is the following:
• The early fathers placed strong emphasis upon imminency.
• They early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-
year kingdom to follow.
• A type of imminent intratribulationism (Crutchfield) or imminent
posttribulationism (Walvoord)35
with occasional pretribulational inferences
was believed.36
• The early fathers understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times
of general Roman persecution that they experienced, rather than a specific
fulfillment of future tribulational wrath."

You said the following and I quote: "The Church is DEFINATELY in heaven during the gt. Jesus is emphatic about it. My verses prove that hands down."

You also admitted that you found evidence of your view in 30 seconds, really? Did you actually read the evidence for yourself? You also gave a list of "Early Church Fathers" that apparently support your position.

Now, I did my homework and found this:

"Tribulation
Among those who believed in an earthly millennial reign, the fathers believed that the church would undergo the tribulation. Hippolytus (see his Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 64) and Irenaeus are two good examples, the latter of which wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. (Against Heresies, 5.29)"​

How come when I checked out what you said I found two names on your list, Hippolytus and Irenaeus and they believed the church WOULD undergo the tribulation? From reading your post you must really think your messing around with little kids that don't know what their talking about. Your in the "big leagues" now where you have to prove your position with evidence as opposed to just making "loudmouth" statements. I suggest you read Acts 17:11.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto