What Laws are still valid to christians

[danschance]

I don't think Jesus harvested grain. I think it was his disciples who did so.

Where in the law is it written that a rabbi has to supervise the making of wine?

This is what I have found to answer your question:

The principles governing what is kosher and what is not, are rooted in the Written Torah (the Bible) and the Oral Torah. These laws have been observed by Jews for over 3,000 years.

From: What is Kosher

Keep in mind this was required back in the day Jesus made this wine. He clearly violated the letter of the law. On the other hand I strongly believe He never once violated the spirit or intent of the law or He would of sinned. As an example, there are posted speed limits we must all obey (the letter of the law) but when my pregnant wife was having contractions, I broke the letter of the law because her need to get to the Hospital-fast, exceeded the need for me to obey speed limits.

The jews in Jesus' day added all sorts of stupid requirements to define the law. They took the law of the Sabbath and declared how many steeps you could walk on the Sabbath. Yet the Sabbath was made for man so he would rest not be burdend by all the huge restrictions the Jews placed on it.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Jesus violated the mosaic law when He made wine with out the supervision of a rabbi. All kosher wines must be signed off by a Rabbi. Jesus never once had a rabbi even take a peak at His delicious wine. Now this is a clear violation of the letter of the law.

I don't like it when people say Jesus broke the Mosaic law. I think its blasphemous - if He is not perfect, how can He be the perfect sacrifice for our sin? What I think you mean, though, is that Jesus didn't abide by the man-made (oral at that time) traditions of the Pharisees, who were hypocrites, in that their oral laws added to and took away from the divine laws, effectively nullifying them. I think the Rabbis having a peek at the wine would have come under those man-made, oral laws. Same as with their "working" on the Sabbath - they had predefined lists of how far you could travel by foot, by donkey, by water etc. Same with the eating of the grain - eating is not work!!!

Think about the importance of this first miracle. He took ceremonial washing jars, where folks would wash their dirty hands and fouled the water (would you like to drink water where others have been washing their hands and feet?...yuk!) and He changed it into the most amazing wine. Jesus takes our filth and turns us into grapes so we can someday be the pleasing wine of our Heavenly Father. And it was also a clear violation of kosher law, because Jesus not only changed the water into wine but he also changed the old covenant into the sweet covenant of grace.

Agreed.

So go on, tell me how I am wrong, I dare you. Argue till you are blue in the face that this was still abiding by the kosher law. Because if you do that, I have some amazing beach front property near Phoenix I will sell to you are a great price.

I've actually been looking for some cheap, beach front property in Phoenix... Its amazing that its cheap, 'cause all the other beach front properties seem to have sold out!

Stinking Judaizers. I wish they could buy a clue, but they are so enamored of Judaism that they will forsake the clear teaching of the New Testament for traditions of men.

I suppose I can live with them wanting to be Jews, but I wish they wouldn't try to trick other Christians into it. If they were honest about wanting to become more observant Jews, perhaps even they would realise their error.

 

[danschance]

I don't like it when people say Jesus broke the Mosaic law. I think its blasphemous - if He is not perfect, how can He be the perfect sacrifice for our sin? What I think you mean, though, is that Jesus didn't abide by the man-made (oral at that time) traditions of the Pharisees, who were hypocrites, in that their oral laws added to and took away from the divine laws, effectively nullifying them. I think the Rabbis having a peek at the wine would have come under those man-made, oral laws. Same as with their "working" on the Sabbath - they had predefined lists of how far you could travel by foot, by donkey, by water etc. Same with the eating of the grain - eating is not work!!!

Jesus never onced sinned in any way. God can't sin. Yes, you are right that he never broke the Mosaic law. However, He did break the Mosaic law as the Jewish leaders overly defined it. That is why I said Jesus broke the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.

Read thru the gospels and see that Jews is constantly bucking this man made system. Jesus over turned the money changers, healed on the Sabbath, harvested grain on the Sabbath. He made wine without a rabbi supervising it. Finally, at His death He completely voided out the Mosaic law.

Now these Judaizers want to tell us we have to obey the Sabbath, not eat pork and follow Jesus. They are blind to what a huge contradiction that is!

 

[Kerry]

Paul basically says that if we put our faith in the work of the cross, we are free from the curseof the law. Does that mean we are free to sin as we will, God forbid. If you are truly born again, sin detest you, you hate sin and avoid it as best you can.

The law was not given to relieve sin only to expose it. The cross is the only remedy for sin and nothing that you or I can do. Except to place our faith in the work of the cross and nothing else. I mean, not bible study, atheist study the bible, not fasting, many false religions fast. Islam has Ramadan and Catholics have Lent. Not attending church any sinner can do that even with blood shot eyes.

The only thing man can do is to accept the free gift of the cross and say thank you and nothing else!!!

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Jesus never onced sinned in any way. God can't sin. Yes, you are right that he never broke the Mosaic law. However, He did break the Mosaic law as the Jewish leaders overly defined it. That is why I said Jesus broke the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.

Read thru the gospels and see that Jews is constantly bucking this man made system. Jesus over turned the money changers, healed on the Sabbath, harvested grain on the Sabbath. He made wine without a rabbi supervising it. Finally, at His death He completely voided out the Mosaic law.

Now these Judaizers want to tell us we have to obey the Sabbath, not eat pork and follow Jesus. They are blind to what a huge contradiction that is!

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but not the letter.

The reason I believe it is important is this - you may know the truth, but those coming after you may misunderstand your words. The Mosaic law, as I understand it, was given by Moses. The oral traditions, were not part of the Mosaic law, but were made up by the Pharisees, essentially to nullify the word of God. These would be better described as a Talmudic law, perhaps? If you tell an honest Jew that Jesus broke the Mosaic law, he would be able to reasonably claim that Jesus could not be the Messiah. The laws of man, however, are a completely different matter, because man has no authority to tell God what to do. At Jesus death (or perhaps ascension?) Jesus fulfilled even the letter (jot and tittle) of the Mosaic law (not to be confused with the Talmudic).

 

[LT]

If a man is saved, it is against the Spirit and his own conscience that he sins. The way a man observes the Sabbath is dictated by his conscience. If he is convicted that he should not work, and yet continues to do work on that day, it is then sin.
The Law of Moses is the law of those who put themselves under it. It gives wisdom to those who seek it. But remember what Galatians 4 says:
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[LT]

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm,then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Kerry]

It is faith in the work of the cross and nothing else. Think of it, God became a man and still is a man and died for you and me. No other religion can say that. Praise God.

 

[GreenNnice]

All laws are valid, some just 'hinge' on other laws, the laws of Love are most important, Love
God, first, and, with your everything--mind, soul, spirit, body, and, the 2nd commandment (law) of Love "like the first," which, Jesus said those words, yes, and, the 2nd : Love others as you love yourself.

 

[Kerry]

All laws are valid, some just 'hinge' on other laws, the laws of Love are most important, Love
God, first, and, with your everything--mind, soul, spirit, body, and, the 2nd commandment (law) of Love "like the first," which, Jesus said those words, yes, and, the 2nd : Love others as you love yourself.

What does that do? How can I be saved or delivered by obeying these laws. Atheist help there neighbors and give to charity and deny themselves to help others. What sets a true christian apart?

 

[KohenMatt]

The problem is, even if they think they are, because they do not do the sins we all think of (murder, adultry etc etc) they still would fall so short on a daily basis, they would have no hope. and still be unworthy. The problem is, since they are concentrating on the law, and not Christ, they can;t see this.

This is why the pharisees thought they were so righteous, They looked to the law. and did not realise the law condemned them.

You seem to think that we're advocating following the law for righteousness' sake. We are not. I fall short of keeping the law perfectly every day. God doesn't love me less, nor is my salvation in jeopardy.

 

[KohenMatt]

To lead unbelievers to Christ. What about believers? Do they need law, or the spirit?

Believers should follow the law because that's who He was talking to in Matthew 5. Believers also need the Spirit equally. Most importantly, all people need only Jesus for salvation.

 

[KohenMatt]

Well if you are still stuck on my post about Jesus breaking the Sabbath by harvesting grain, here is one more for you to have kittens over.

Jesus violated the mosaic law when He made wine with out the supervision of a rabbi. All kosher wines must be signed off by a Rabbi. Jesus never once had a rabbi even take a peak at His delicious wine. Now this is a clear violation of the letter of the law. Now Jesus never did anything that violates the spirit of the law as He remains sinless.

What you're referring to isn't in God's law. You're talking about Rabbinical Law which I care very little about. I'm talking about God's law and where Jesus broke that. So far, all you have is Jesus plucking a head of grain and eating it.

 

[KohenMatt]

This is what I have found to answer your question:


From: What is Kosher

Keep in mind this was required back in the day Jesus made this wine. He clearly violated the letter of the law. On the other hand I strongly believe He never once violated the spirit or intent of the law or He would of sinned. As an example, there are posted speed limits we must all obey (the letter of the law) but when my pregnant wife was having contractions, I broke the letter of the law because her need to get to the Hospital-fast, exceeded the need for me to obey speed limits.

The jews in Jesus' day added all sorts of stupid requirements to define the law. They took the law of the Sabbath and declared how many steeps you could walk on the Sabbath. Yet the Sabbath was made for man so he would rest not be burdend by all the huge restrictions the Jews placed on it.

A rabbi blessing wine isn't in God's law, just man's. You won't find that instruction anywhere in your Bible.

If you want to to say that Jesus broke the Pharisees Oral/Talmudic law, I agree with you 150%.
But there is still no compelling evidence that Jesus broke the law that HE gave to Moses.

 

[vic1980]

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm,then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Brother LT search and ye shall find

God's Grace Brings Salvation

Titus 2:11

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

God bless

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Believers should follow the law because that's who He was talking to in Matthew 5. Believers also need the Spirit equally. Most importantly, all people need only Jesus for salvation.

I guess the phrase 'follow the law' needs to be clarified on your part because its ambiguity creates problems. Paul said that law and grace are incompatible in a person's walk. The purpose of the law (besides dealing with sin) was to teach love to a people who did not have the same revelation of the holy spirit that we have under the new covenant. That spirit is love and now lives in our hearts teaching us how to love. Apart from adding to this learning process, what else would believers need the law for?

 

[kindsara]

All things are good

 

[Graybeard]

So if Jesus fulfilled the Law (which He did) thereby making it obsolete as some say...we have a problem a huge contradiction, in that Jesus Himself said...and yes we have seen this verse many times, but look at it again just a little closer:
and Jesus said....

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Okay, so He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law, in other words He did not come to make the Law obsolete, then He says something very profound which many folk overlook.....He states categorically that until Heaven and Earth pass away, nothing of the Law will pass away...have the Heavens and the Earth passed away??....of course not!!
So why would He say this?....because He made it clear that there should be no mistake about understanding what He meant, Gods Laws are here to stay...TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY!

People get mixed up between the Laws of God and the laws of the Pharisees....BIG difference!
We moan about 600 and something Laws of God yet our own man made laws tally to the thousands and we embrace them because it is "the law"....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So if Jesus fulfilled the Law (which He did) thereby making it obsolete as some say...we have a problem a huge contradiction, in that Jesus Himself said...and yes we have seen this verse many times, but look at it again just a little closer:
and Jesus said....

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Okay, so He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law, in other words He did not come to make the Law obsolete, then He says something very profound which many folk overlook.....He states categorically that until Heaven and Earth pass away, nothing of the Law will pass away...have the Heavens and the Earth passed away??....of course not!!
So why would He say this?....because He made it clear that there should be no mistake about understanding what He meant, Gods Laws are here to stay...TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY!

People get mixed up between the Laws of God and the laws of the Pharisees....BIG difference!
We moan about 600 and something Laws of God yet our own man made laws tally to the thousands and we embrace them because it is "the law"....

Just because something still exists doesn't mean that it's not obsolete, or that it hasn't passed away in terms of usefulness. I still have a cassette tape player. I think you get the picture...

 

[Graybeard]

Just because something still exists doesn't mean that it's not obsolete, or that it hasn't passed away in terms of usefulness. I still have a cassette tape player. I think you get the picture...

show where Jesus said we keep the Law but do not have to use them...He said they will not pass away!..what does that mean?...simple they are still to be obeyed...besides, you are saying God like a "compulsive hoarder"?..why would one keep something when it is of no use?