What Laws are still valid to christians

[Graybeard]

This is [GOD's] commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

so that's it....okay, do you do dishes?...you know, wash your plates-cups etc after eating?...if you do then you are disregarding what Jesus said....

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

see how silly that can be when it's taken out of context?

 

[Elin]

Believers should follow the law because that's who He was talking to in Matthew 5. Believers also need the Spirit equally. Most importantly, all people need only Jesus for salvation.

Which laws--moral, ceremonial, civil?

I believe all of them, with the sacrifices being done spiritually in remembrance of what Jesus already sacrificed.

Which ones do you think He was talking about?

Only the moral.

The ceremonial (Levitical) laws no longer apply because they were only types (Heb 10:1)
which have now been fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

And the civil (governing) laws no longer apply because we are not a theocracy.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

so that's it....okay, do you do dishes?...you know, wash your plates-cups etc after eating?...if you do then you are disregarding what Jesus said....

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

see how silly that can be when it's taken out of context?

I don't understand your point...

 

[Elin]

I thought he was forbidding it even as an action to please God? (i.e. knowing that it has no bearing on salvation).

I don't find that anywhere. In what I find, the issue is always about necessary for salvation.

Galations 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

This is referring to a legal obligation making it necessary for salvation,
which legal obligation would place him under the whole law.

God is not interested in whether or not one is circumcised, it is of no more value
than sandals or bare feet.

One has the option to do so, or not, in both cases.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You seem to think that we're advocating following the law for righteousness' sake. We are not. I fall short of keeping the law perfectly every day. God doesn't love me less, nor is my salvation in jeopardy.

Cant speak for you. Nor do I even remember speaking of you.

Bet there are a few people in here advocating this. Even if they deny it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Believers should follow the law because that's who He was talking to in Matthew 5. Believers also need the Spirit equally. Most importantly, all people need only Jesus for salvation.

do they need to follow the law? or the spirit?

The law can't make us righteous. Not only for salvation, but in our lives. Again, It can only tell us how well we are doing. Not how to do it.. One will never be righteous or morally good by following the law. That is NOT what it was intended to do.. nor can it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if Jesus fulfilled the Law (which He did) thereby making it obsolete as some say...we have a problem a huge contradiction, in that Jesus Himself said...and yes we have seen this verse many times, but look at it again just a little closer:
and Jesus said....

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Okay, so He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law, in other words He did not come to make the Law obsolete, then He says something very profound which many folk overlook.....He states categorically that until Heaven and Earth pass away, nothing of the Law will pass away...have the Heavens and the Earth passed away??....of course not!!
So why would He say this?....because He made it clear that there should be no mistake about understanding what He meant, Gods Laws are here to stay...TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY!

People get mixed up between the Laws of God and the laws of the Pharisees....BIG difference!
We moan about 600 and something Laws of God yet our own man made laws tally to the thousands and we embrace them because it is "the law"....

I think your looking at this wrong.

1. Jesus fulfilled it as High priest. on the cross. When one comes to Christ through faith, this fulfilling of the law is fulfilled in them.
2. Until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fade away, It will continue to do what it was intended to do since it was given, Lead us to the redeemer. the true high priest. And help us know we STILL fall short. even after we have been redeemed.

what it never has done, and never will be able to do. is teach a man HOW to live a righteous life.

as for Gods law vs pharisee law.. I agree. But mosaic law (gods law) again was NEVER intended to hos us HOW to live a righteous life, even without the pharisee law

 

[eternally-gratefull]

show where Jesus said we keep the Law but do not have to use them...He said they will not pass away!..what does that mean?...simple they are still to be obeyed...besides, you are saying God like a "compulsive hoarder"?..why would one keep something when it is of no use?

tell us HOW Gods law shows us HOW to obey?

You won't find it, It is just a guide to show us how good we do at it, it does not tell us how.. Paul was very adament about this. the law came and sin INCREASED,, why?? what happens when you are thinking of sin? temptation comes, and you risk falling, so if you are thinking "do not do this" you are continually thinking of sin.

instead, look to the spirit. You will not think of the sin, and will not NEED the law in that aspect. however, when you do fall. immediately the law does what it should. Shows your sin, and you continued need for Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not a question of whether the law exists or not, but your relation to it. Laws don't have authority over dead people. If you are under the law, you are under a curse. It is a sign that you are being disobedient by not putting the old man to death and trusting in the new life.

it is MUCH more than this. Many people have put the old man to death, yet still fall to temptation. The law shows them their sin, and continues to show their need for Christ.

if it ONLY says a man has not put the old man to death, Then we are in trouble. because it means non of us have.. Only sinless perfection would be allowed.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

One has the option to do so, or not, in both cases.

So you don't think it is saying the option to start trying to keep the law (for whatever reason) places you under the law? Whereas the Jew who is called need not feel like he must stop what he has been doing?

1 Cor 7:18 - 19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.[SUP]20 [/SUP]Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

 

[Elin]

So you don't think it is saying the option to start trying to keep the law (for whatever reason) places you under the law?

No, the context in all Paul's epistles is the necessity of circumcision for salvation
as the Judaizers were teaching (Ac 15:1).

His discussion of circumcision, as well as of the law, relates to its necessity for salvation.

To put oneself "under the law" in Paul's meaning is to come under it as necessary
for righteousness to salvation, as some of the believers who were Pharisees required (Ac 15:5).

Actually, if one wants to practice the law to "please God," and not because it is necessary
for his salvation, Paul does not proscribe the practice.

But keeping in mind, it's kind of redundant because the law is now written on the heart
of the NT Christian, which causes him to obey it in love (Heb 8:10; Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

Many of the first Jewish Christians still kept the law to please God, even though they did not
rely on it for righteousness to salvation.

But the Judaizers (Ac 15:1) and some believers who were Pharisees (Ac 15:5) were teaching
that it was necessary to keep the law in order to be saved.

This is the context for all Paul's letters on the law.

Whereas the Jew who is called need not feel like he must stop what he has been doing?

Yes, as long as we understand that this is not referring to continuing in the law as necessary for salvation.

1 Cor 7:18 - 19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.[SUP]20 [/SUP]Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Well, again, I see that as Paul telling the Gentiles they should not yield to Jewish pressure
for circumcision (Ac 15:1-2), but not as forbidding them to be circumcised if they wanted to be.

He gives this instruction in the context of whether salvation should change one's station
in life (vv. 17, 20, 24) such as marital status (vv. 12-14), or slave status (vv. 21-23) or
Jewish status (vv. 18-19).

He doesn't give the instruction of vv. 18-19 as proscription of circumcision for Gentiles.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Actually, if one wants to practice the law to "please God," and not because it is necessary
for his salvation, Paul does not proscribe the practice.

But keeping in mind, it's kind of redundant because the law is now written on the heart
of the NT Christian, which causes him to obey it in love (Heb 8:10; Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

I suppose this is more toward what I was driving at. To use your analogy, God does not have a preference whether one wears sandals or no. This being the case, by strapping on sandals (i.e. keeping OT rituals to try to please God), isn't this really us saying that God is indeed pleased with the wearing of the sandal, and we would then be compelled to put on both sandals, and wear them all the time? This would be different to an early Church Jewish believer, who was already wearing sandals when called, and may have become uncomfortable if he'd tried to remove.

I can't think of anywhere in the New Testament where Paul encourages or permits OT rituals for non-Jewish believers , whether as a means of salvation (definitely not!), or even because we would like to please God by keeping such rituals. As another example - you may not want to eat pork, as you trust that God knew what He was saying when He gave the Israelites their dietary rules, and you believe it may be healthier to do this. However, if you start thinking of your decision not to eat pork as something you do to please God, you have started wearing this like a sandal.

Is that what you mean? Or something else?

 

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

So if Jesus fulfilled the Law (which He did) thereby making it obsolete as some say...we have a problem a huge contradiction, in that Jesus Himself said...and yes we have seen this verse many times, but look at it again just a little closer:
and Jesus said....

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroybut to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Okay, so He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law, in other words He did not come to make the Law obsolete, then He says something very profound which many folk overlook.....He states categorically that until Heaven and Earth pass away, nothing of the Law will pass away...have the Heavens and the Earth passed away??....of course not!!
So why would He say this?....because He made it clear that there should be no mistake about understanding what He meant, Gods Laws are here to stay...TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY!

People get mixed up between the Laws of God and the laws of the Pharisees....BIG difference!
We moan about 600 and something Laws of God yet our own man made laws tally to the thousands and we embrace them because it is "the law"....

I think your looking at this wrong.

1. Jesus fulfilled it as High priest. on the cross. When one comes to Christ through faith, this fulfilling of the law is fulfilled in them.
2. Until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fade away, It will continue to do what it was intended to do since it was given, Lead us to the redeemer. the true high priest. And help us know we STILL fall short. even after we have been redeemed.

what it never has done, and never will be able to do. is teach a man HOW to live a righteous life.

as for Gods law vs pharisee law.. I agree. But mosaic law (gods law) again was NEVER intended to hos us HOW to live a righteous life, even without the pharisee law

Lets take it a step further......the very next verse Jesus says:

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


so if we all must only worry about the two Great Commandments, what commandments is Jesus speaking of here?
and then the next verse Jesus says:

Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

but we are under Grace....what could Jesus be speaking of here?.....lets take a brief look at a scribe, extremely dedicated to his work, sits hours upon hours even could be a whole year painstakingly coping writings and such. What about a Pharisee....also highly dedicated to his belief (although wrong) dedicates his whole day studying and following every law of his right down to the dumb act of putting on his left shoe first then the right and then only tie the lefts lace!...how dedicated and disciplined is that!.....and that is how we are expected to be following Christ...who was Jesus addressing all this to?.....His disciples!

 

[Elin]

I suppose this is more toward what I was driving at. To use your analogy, God does not have a preference whether one wears sandals or no. This being the case, by strapping on sandals (i.e. keeping OT rituals to try to please God), isn't this really us saying that God is indeed pleased with the wearing of the sandal, and we would then be compelled to put on both sandals, and wear them all the time? This would be different to an early Church Jewish believer, who was already wearing sandals when called, and may have become uncomfortable if he'd tried to remove.

I can't think of anywhere in the New Testament where Paul encourages or permits OT rituals for non-Jewish believers , whether as a means of salvation (definitely not!), or even because we would like to please God by keeping such rituals. As another example - you may not want to eat pork, as you trust that God knew what He was saying when He gave the Israelites their dietary rules, and you believe it may be healthier to do this. However, if you start thinking of your decision not to eat pork as something you do to please God, you have started wearing this like a sandal.

Is that what you mean? Or something else?

Well, I see the problem you are presenting.
Since the blood of Jesus cleanses, why would anyone continue the defilement-cleansing ceremonies?
It would be hard to want to adhere to those practices without some belief that they have merit.

And I think merit is the issue you are presenting.
But that applies even to the believer keeping Jesus' commands.
If we are obedient because we think we are meriting favor with God, or putting God in our debt,
rather than just serving the Lord in love and giving thanks for his provision,
we have slipped from grace to works as the source of God's favor.

In all things, the believer is to obey simply to please the God he loves, not to merit something in return, even his favor.

So it is the motive of our obedience that determines its nature, whether it is works for merit, or simply serving the Lord in thanks.

And don't you think Paul touches on this very issue?

Ro 14:1-4, ff - "Accept him whose faith is weak (those unwilling to give up dietary restrictions--vv. 2-4, 6, or keeping of the Sabbath and other special days, vv. 5-6), without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything (including pork) must not look down on the man who does not, and the man who does not eat everything (pork) must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

But the issue here is motive for our practices: are they to merit favor, or simply to servethe Lord in love.

And this really puts in relief why Paul says to judge no one in these matters, because only God knows what their true motives are.

 

[KohenMatt]

do they need to follow the law? or the spirit?


The law can't make us righteous. Not only for salvation, but in our lives. Again, It can only tell us how well we are doing. Not how to do it.. One will never be righteous or morally good by following the law. That is NOT what it was intended to do.. nor can it.

Both. And you're right. The law can't make us righteous. It's purpose is to show us how to live physically. It also is our way of saying that we love God so much that we'll do our best to be obedient to the things He told us to do. Not for obedience's sake, but because we love Him. And it also comes by the Holy Spirit teaching us how to live. But, the Holy Spirit will always agree with Jesus' words. And Jesus's words will always agree with God's.

God wrote the Law.
Jesus wrote the Law.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Law.

God says it's eternal.
Jesus says it's eternal.
The Holy Spirit says it's eternal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both. And you're right. The law can't make us righteous. It's purpose is to show us how to live physically.

Again, this is not the case. Its purpose is to show us how utterly sinfull we are and how utterly hopeless we are. This is supposed to lead us to Christ.

It also is our way of saying that we love God so much that we'll do our best to be obedient to the things He told us to do. Not for obedience's sake, but because we love Him.

I love because God first loved me.

I will not learn how to be righteous by the law. Nore will I learn to love God by the law. I will ONLY learn to love God as I experience his love for me by trusting him.. I do not learn love by trying to be obedient, I learn love by allowing God to love me and trust me, In this I WILL BE OBEDIENT

And it also comes by the Holy Spirit teaching us how to live. But, the Holy Spirit will always agree with Jesus' words. And Jesus's words will always agree with God's.

God wrote the Law.
Jesus wrote the Law.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Law.

God says it's eternal.
Jesus says it's eternal.
The Holy Spirit says it's eternal.

I agree, It is eternal.

for the rest of my life it will show me how utterly sinfull I am, and how utterly impossible I will be to follow his law to his standard. And thus continue to learn to trust him and his love for me.

What it will never do? Show me how to be obedient. That was not its purpose.

 

[Graybeard]

...
What it will never do? Show me how to be obedient. That was not its purpose.

you are right, the Law will never and does not show us HOW to be obedient.....it DEMANDS obedience from us!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you are right, the Law will never and does not show us HOW to be obedient.....it DEMANDS obedience from us!

Yep it does.

Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

We have failed to do this. Thus the law has done its Job.

As Paul said, if your going to follow the law, your indebted to follow the WHOLE LAW

 

[KohenMatt]

I guess the phrase 'follow the law' needs to be clarified on your part because its ambiguity creates problems. Paul said that law and grace are incompatible in a person's walk. The purpose of the law (besides dealing with sin) was to teach love to a people who did not have the same revelation of the holy spirit that we have under the new covenant. That spirit is love and now lives in our hearts teaching us how to love. Apart from adding to this learning process, what else would believers need the law for?

"Follow the law" means to do the law. To do the acts set forth in it. Not for Salvation's sake or obligations sake, but because we love God and we want to honor Him with our lives by doing what He says to do.

John 14:15-21 “If you love me, keep my commands."

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

For me, it's very simple.
Matthew 5:17-19 "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus gives us 4 affirmations here that His followers are to follow the Law.

Matthew 23:23 "“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
Jesus tells the Pharisees to follow justice, mercy and faithfulness while tithing a tenth according to the Law.

Some side notes....Jesus was circumcised and Mary offered a purification sacrifice according to the Law. If God/Jesus wanted to show that the Law was done away with and it would be wrong to circumcise, why did He get circumcised?


We can use all sorts of reasoning and rationale and even verses by Paul where he "supposedly" says we shouldn't follow the Law, but there aren't any verses from Jesus saying we shouldn't follow the Law. He in fact tells us to follow the Law and to teach others to do so.

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit gave the Law and said it was to be kept forever.
God/Jesus/Holy Spirit never changes (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8)

If Jesus changed what He said was to be forever, He is a liar. (And He's not)


A lot of people here won't understand of accept this, and that's OK with me. I know that those people are my brothers and sisters and will be in the Kingdom of Heaven with me. But for the sake of other people reading this thread, I'll keep this scripture over and over again because it just makes too much sense coming from our Savior's mouth.....

Matthew 5:17-19 "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Every other word in the Bible has to agree with this statement, and with all of Jesus' words. If we think that they don't, or that it somehow changes this eternal truth, we are in BIG trouble.

As always, not for salvation, but for the love of God and his merciful work for me.
Matt

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

But the issue here is motive for our practices: are they to merit favor, or simply to servethe Lord in love.

And this really puts in relief why Paul says to judge no one in these matters, because only God knows what their true motives are.

So its not wrong to put on sandals for the right reason (i.e. to serve the Lord in love), but if we do this, it could be because our faith is weak? And at the same time, we are not to judge, because we don't know the motives of another (e.g. with Timothy, other Christians may have thought his faith was weak (if they had judged), but the reason he strapped on sandals from Paul (Acts 16) was so he could witness to other Jews, not as a merit-earning, defilement-cleansing ceremony).

I understand what you're saying, and I agree. Thanks.