What Laws are still valid to christians

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Hoffco

Guest
Please keeping in mind, the spiritual does not wipe out the physical. Th physical circumcism can be a health thing to do. but God does not requirer it as a duty to do, only a libery to do ,if you, or your parents chose to do. In the Philippines the custom is to circumcise your teen males. to me this is stupid. I can remember ,as a teen boy getting bad infections , because I didn't bath properly. This happens to young Phil. boys. So, my late wife and I, 44yrs ago choose to cir. our boys at birth, that was a personal choice, no one forced it upon us. This is N.T. liberty ,not law. Hoffco
 
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Welshman

Guest
Jesus is the architect of all the law he is the maker,the giver, the enabler, the sum of all laws , tis Christ Jesus that shall judge those who reside in the law ( not by legal compunction ) and those outside the law . And the ultimate law is? The law of love ? And Jesus is that love? Those who can accept this well that's the point? They look unto Jesus as judge of all laws and he himself has told us we cnt hope to obey the law in the flesh so we trust him to make us right before almighty god by his grace and his grace alone ?, il say it again did the law ever save one person even in Old Testament ? King David broke several laws even unto murder and thou shall not kill? It is written ? Why then do we see The Lord speak of David as a man of his own heart? , because David's heart after repentance was as Jesus says a man alike to himself , did the law cleanse David from his sins? No ? The cleansing of the heart does the changing and renewing and this comes from Jesus ... Amen goodnight to all on cc? May god bless us all and guide us unto his truth amen
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Is John addressing believers or unbelievers in his letter, 1Jn?

Is he addressing the saved or the unsaved?
Both, there was mix up to the truth. There were those in that gathering fellowship, that did not believe that Christ came in the flesh, and or as well those that did not believe they were born with a sin nature that sill and does sin.
so read this in Context and see why John said what he said and then go to Chapter two and see what he says about being forgiven and that Christ is the propitiation for not only our sin(s) but for the whole world

Thanks Ein
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Forgive me for this long post. But full understanding sometimes requires more to be said.

Well, sad to say, it is more than technical.

The phrase "letter of the law" is incorrectly used to mean the external, literal sense in Scripture, or obedience to the external, literal sense of Scripture, as being deadly (kills) or unprofitable; while the "spirit of the law" is incorrectly used to mean the inner spiritual sense of Scripture, or our inner attitude, as being life giving.

However, in 2Co 3:6-9, "the letter" is simply "the law written," an external standard before which all people stand guilty and condemned to death (the letter kills).

The Spirit that gives life is the Spirit of the living God (v.3), not our inner attitude, or some "spiritual" sense of the words.

It is the Holy Spirit who writes that same law (the letter) inwardly "on tablets of human hearts," in fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34), and the law is now an internal standard.
And the Holy Spirit gives the believer love of God's law, as well as power to keep it, neither of which he had previously possessed.

So "the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" are unBiblical phrases used in opposition to one another, or as distinct and different from one another, in an incorrect understanding of the law and the Spirit.
Elin, you say that "the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" are "unbiblical phrases" as if to condemn their use, concluding "an incorrect understanding of the law and the spirit". But I ask you, has everything about Christ been written?

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
And didn't Christ himself say that there was *more* to share and that the Holy Spirit will reveal?

John 16:12-13
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
And again, didn't Paul say that the hidden wisdom of God is revealed by his Spirit?

1 Corinthians 2:7-10
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

These are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
SOME of the things that Paul revealed in his writings weren't first written before Paul wrote them, but were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul even points out a couple of times that those who are supposed to be masters of the basics moving on to the "meat" of all of this, can still be stuck at the elementary stage, still needing milk.

1 Corinthians 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
Hebrews 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
Now I'm not accusing you directly, Elin, or claiming that you're elementary. I'm just taking this opportunity to say there is truth that builds upon the foundation that was written...but there can be no growth or maturity towards this truth if one is STILL limited by the "letter", even today. Let me emphasize; I am NOT saying stray to the right or to the left from scripture!!! But we are to build upon it; precept upon precept; line upon line. So even though this *phrase* I use isn't in the bible, it is still truth. We do ourselves a disservice to limit our understanding "to the letters written". This book of books - just like the tables of stone - is not alive unless and until every part of it is on the inside and connections (i.e. meanings; purposes; understandings) are made by the Holy Spirit.

----

So What does the spirit say about his relationship between He and the law BASED ON all that is understood of scripture?

Well..

1. It is true that the "written" law of God is his very Character, "written" on tables of stone.

(Sinful Israel almost died hearing God speak the 10 commandments to them. They couldn't bear God's pure character, as God's "words are [his] spirit".)

2. It is true that the Holy "Spirit" of God is his very Character, imputed to a believer who is baptized in Christ.

Thus...

3. The Holy Spirit IS the spirit of the law; its embodiment and rightful interpreter. "The spirit of truth"; God's very own character.

If it's written that "A = B"...and it's written that "B = C"...then A = C (even if "A = C" is not written).

So one can not separate The Law of God from The Holy Spirit, for both are the "Word(s) of God"; his very character. One can however make a distinction between "the letters written" of the law and "the truer meaning" those letters (that only the Holy Spirit can properly interpret...because he's the embodiment thereof).

This is why I also pointed out the perfect parallel between Mt. Sinai and Pentecost, because we are meant to recognize the relationship between these two events. The "milk" is the basic understanding of these events *separately*, as articulated by the letters of scripture written. But the "meat" is understanding *why* these two events are connected; the spirit moving behind these events.

There's a difference between knowing God's acts (i.e. what he does) and knowing God's ways (i.e. why he's doing them). One is on the surface and the other is in the depths. One is flesh; the other is spirit.


I'll give you another connection related to this thread...

1. It is true that Christ is the word of God (the very "Word" of God made flesh)...and remember God's "words are [his] spirit"

2. It is true that Christ interpreted the law (God's commands/words) during his ministry

3. It is true that Christ had the authority to judge anyone based on the law, though he dispensed mercy. Scripture says that "the law judges".

Thus...

4. Christ IS the spirit of the law as well; its embodiment and rightful interpreter...and because of this, the deeper meaning of the phrase "the law was nailed to the cross" is revealed. The law is God's very character. Christ is God's very character. Christ was nailed to the cross.

...and as the law died in the flesh, so did the law resurrect in the spirit; in his true, glorified form...and he exists eternally at the right hand of the father.

This is the *why*; this is why it's possible to say "if one has Christ's spirit within them one fulfills the law". The outward form (i.e. the flesh...the letter) of the law is not alive, but the inward form (i.e. The Holy Spirit) of the law lives in us.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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If you've presented history correctly, then history is contradictory.
Was john exiled to the island of Patmos or not? were there problems with fellow shipping. Are there Gnostics to this day that do not believe that Christ came in the flesh? And others that do not believe we are born of the flesh as in having a sin nature>
Well sister 1 john is written to correct that problem
 
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This is why I also pointed out the perfect parallel between Mt. Sinai and Pentecost, because we are meant to recognize the relationship between these two events. The "milk" is the basic understanding of these events *separately*, as articulated by the letters of scripture written. But the "meat" is understanding *why* these two events are connected; the spirit moving behind these events.

Excellent!! Both Mt. Sinai and Pentecost are 50 days (7 weeks +1 day) after Passover. There is a very good reason for that. They relate perfectly with the death, and burial of Jesus Christ, and 50 days later, the sending of the Holy Spirit. (The Comforter)

Romans 7:14a (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual:
 
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Welshman

Guest
There is simply no way that some here on cc will ever accept anything other than what they currently believe and hold dear , however sincere they may be bt sincerity never made any one a child of the most high?, as one who did have incorrect doctrine in Christ Jesus and if it wasn't for the grace shown me I would have remained as many trying to serve live and obey in the flesh, but one thing I've learned over time and my lord has shown me directly it is easier to learn ten things in truth than unlearn only one wrong teaching? If we arrive on hear dug in, closed minds, defending our view no matter what anyone else says,? I'm afraid that is we're we will stay unto the coming of our lord in glory?... Test everything by all means but to constantly refuse any other view and then still not relent or at least consider others points well argued backed by scripture is simple folly and a thousand posts will not satisfy some? Heavenly Father guide us all into your truth not mans version of what he sees as truth? Soon Jew and gentile shall be one people this will be the lords doing and the bowl that now covers shall be removed amen .. I now wish you all a good nights rest and fantastic dreams about all our lord has prepared for those that love him .. The Lord is coming soon people then faith shall give way to sight and all from the least to the greatest shall know him amen ..
 
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cfultz3

Guest
Very Very true. Thank you brother for describing those things so well so others can really understand what we believe. That understanding has been hidden for quite some time. Take the blinders off and see the truth. Hopefully your statements will do that. Time will tell. Let all things be brought into the light. What is done in secret will be shouted from the house tops.
You are welcome, my Brother.
 

vic1980

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Apr 25, 2013
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Keep going. Show us how the 4th commandment is the same as Jesus' commandment(s).
I belive john823 has given you good context.


Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Why would Christ tell us to pray our flight would not be on the Sabbath at the end of the age? Why would the Sabbath matter 2000 years later if it were not still in force?

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Why don't you show us one shred fo teachin gfrom Christ that even questions the Sabbath? Why does Christ reinforce it? If it were to be changed or done away, why didn't someone say so? Paul certainly didn't...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

And the word here for rest is Sabbatismos. When this is translated properly it reads...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God. - Diaglott

Even my Oxford KJV has this rendering in the margin "a keeping of a Sabbath".

There is not one statement in the N.T. changing or doing away with the Sabbath.
something to add Jesus himself said, it is lawful to do good on the sabbath. Matthew 12:12 :)

First and formost the law many here hate, here is the heads up, you are actually keeping by following Messiah Law. You yes you fullfill all those Law :)

We must also remember in the Book of Acts [h=1]The Disciples Kept the Sabbath
85 Times in the book of Acts
[/h]But since messiah redeemed his people from the curse of the Law "Death" which i belive is written in exodus 31:14-15 every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. And there trangression toward God.

The sabbath has been here since Genesis the beginning, and God himself made it holy not man. When the Lord gave the commandment to moses , There was given a curse along with this law.It showed Israel there trangression and disobedient toward God. I belive it was given as so, in order to discipline chasten the people, if the children of Israel did not obligated themself to keep it they where killed or cut off.

There were many times, Israel could not uphold the law as one can read it in the Book of Lamentation ,read from the begining to 2:6 the destruction of the first temple & Israel forgetting its appointed times and Sabbaths. Why God did not kill the people then , shows his mercy for His people.

Thank God for His Grace ,and lifting the curse that was in the law, now its faith in Jesus Christ only. And you fullfill the law by following Christ love. But God made the sabbath to be observed by the Jews only forever Exodus 31:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:

Jump 2000 years into the future and it is still here, I Belive forever means forever.
Jews that belive, and those that do not belive ,in Jesus Christ have keep it.

Some may say there are no true jews in the world anymore, i disagree thats like saying there are no more indians in the world today.

In the Book of Acts Paul departed from Perga,and then came to Antioch in Pisidia ,and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day . a little later in the chapter after telling everyone the Good news of Jesus Christ on the Sabbath.

The Gentiles wanted to hear the good news again the next sabbath.

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Now ask yourself this question ,after being under the new convanent along with the other disciples, why did Paul not preached to them the following day on the Lord's day? Some may say because he would have been killed if he did. But you have to remind yourself, God was with him always to fullfill his glory.

Here you have Gentiles wanting to hear the Good news the following sabbath. I see no problem for a Jew or Gentile to use sabbath as a day of rest or time of worship God. Just as i see no problem for a Gentile to observe The Lord's day as the day to worship God.

The Lord already understood, there was going to be a devision on these days for Jews & Gentiles.
He made a sign between the children of Israel forever, exodus clarly mention this.
The Gentiles can worship either on sabbath or on the Lord's day.

Some Jews might , push Gentiles into submission to keep the sabbath, But God did not make it mandatory for Gentiles.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The Disciples understood this clearly, because they had the holyspirit and knew Christ ,and found peace and joy and his rest.The Disciples keep the sabbath and the Lord's Day ,from what i have read in the Book of Acts . So my question on this does forever mean forever in exodus ,or it does not , seems the Disciples held to it even after being part of the new convanent?

If we read the sermon on the mount , in Matthew 5 Jesus taught his disciples that where Jews this:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I belive they understood this better than us.

A Gentile can observe sabbath or the lord's day sunday.

Romans 14:5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.

The sabbath could never be abolish because it was blessed by God since the beginning in Genesis ,to take it away is like making weekend & weekdays only 6 day in total get it. XD

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


If anything here is not correct, just help a brother out :)

God bless
 
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chubbena

Guest
Paul did not reject certain parts of the law. He stated that no part of the law could make us righteous. That if your going to try to be righteous by the law. Your forced to obey ALL ASPECTS of the law. You can;t just pick and chose which parts, and ignore the rest. You are indebted to follow it all to a T
Thanks for the warning but who is trying to be righteous by the law and who obeys the law is being forced here in this thread?
On the other hand, do you see Paul your mentor said he believes everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets. Do you understand what he's saying?
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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Thanks for the warning but who is trying to be righteous by the law and who obeys the law is being forced here in this thread?
On the other hand, do you see Paul your mentor said he believes everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets. Do you understand what he's saying?
you sound like one of those people " how dare can he teach someone other than what i do " exactly what's going on here saw that with kohen too all the points i quoted he said jesus > paul and just ignored it
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Which one makes righteous. The law or the cross? Certainly the law could not do it. If it could then why did God become a man and give Himself on the cross as a lamb that we might be saved. Saved from what? the curse of the law and sin.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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you sound like one of those people " how dare can he teach someone other than what i do " exactly what's going on here saw that with kohen too all the points i quoted he said jesus > paul and just ignored it
I started ignoring your argument because you refused to listen to what I was saying. Instead, you kept holding on to your false interpretation of what you think I said. And here you are, again, implying the same falsehoods. I'd be happy to engage with you now on the whole Jesus vs. Paul thing now to show you yet again that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

What say 'ye, brother? Do you care to listen, or would you rather continue to believe falsehoods?
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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I started ignoring your argument because you refused to listen to what I was saying. Instead, you kept holding on to your false interpretation of what you think I said. And here you are, again, implying the same falsehoods. I'd be happy to engage with you now on the whole Jesus vs. Paul thing now to show you yet again that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

What say 'ye, brother? Do you care to listen, or would you rather continue to believe falsehoods?
did you or did you not say Jesus > paul, and what " falsehoods" am i saying? you just claim what i'm saying is false because it is contrary to your doctrine
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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I started ignoring your argument because you refused to listen to what I was saying. Instead, you kept holding on to your false interpretation of what you think I said. And here you are, again, implying the same falsehoods. I'd be happy to engage with you now on the whole Jesus vs. Paul thing now to show you yet again that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

What say 'ye, brother? Do you care to listen, or would you rather continue to believe falsehoods?
what im teaching is that the law is fulfilled in us when we become born again which means it's already in us we will not be able to kill, steal or do w.e is contrary to the law by nature that is why since we receive this fulfillment of the law in us we are to live by love because if we don't live by love we will go against law, that is what i'm saying if you can prove my " falsehood" by the bible please go ahead, it is exactly what the bible said Jesus came to do so i don't know how that will be possible for you to do but please go ahead i'm listening
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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did you or did you not say Jesus > paul, and what " falsehoods" am i saying? you just claim what i'm saying is false because it is contrary to your doctrine
When discussing who has the most authority in the Bible, yes. Jesus has more authority than Paul, because Jesus is God, Paul is a man. I'm not saying Paul has no authority, though. Every word from Paul is 100% accurate an inspired, so it lines up with Jesus' perfectly.

And the the falsehoods I was mentioning aren't about your doctrine, but your opinions of my beliefs.
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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Brother.. the holy spirit is the spirit of Jesus who has been baptized with the holy spirit is christ like because they have the same exact spirit that Jesus have so i'm not too sure what you are getting at
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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Brother.. the holy spirit is the spirit of Jesus who has been baptized with the holy spirit is christ like because they have the same exact spirit that Jesus have so i'm not too sure what you are getting at
In the context of our previous discussion....

Jesus told His followers to follow the Law and to teach others to do so. Because Paul is anointed by God to speak His truth, Paul also teaches that Christians should follow the Law. If anyone thinks that Paul teaches against the Law, even though Jesus clearly states we should follow the Law, those people would be elevating Paul OVER Jesus. My response if that is the case?

Jesus is my God.
Paul isn't.
Thus, Jesus > Paul