What Laws are still valid to christians

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Oct 14, 2013
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Are you saying that the 600+ laws in the Old Covenant are not from God, not part of the Law? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you seem to have been hinting at . . .



Everything that does not come from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23).

-JGIG

That is one answer some more to go on what is sin

i will give you a hint the both answers are in 1 john
 
Oct 14, 2013
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The Ceremonial law and Colossians 2:16

Colossians 2:16 is one of the main areas of misunderstanding when it comes to understanding the ordinances of the ceremonial law, so we will cover this verse first followed by Galatians 4:9-10 and Romans 14:5, which are all related to the Mosaic law and what Paul is explaining in Colossians 2:16.In Colossians 2:16 it reads “Let no man therefore judge you in meat (offering), or in drink (offering), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” and so the argument is the fourth Commandment was deleted from stone. What was done away with here was called the ordinances (ceremonial law). This is clearly seen by noting what Paul said two verses earlier.

Colossians 2:14
states, “
blotting out the handwriting (has to be Moses handwriting) of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.” Paul then goes on to say, so “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Luke 1:6 KJV shows that the ordinances and the Ten Commandments are two totally different things. It states, “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
 
Oct 14, 2013
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And Hebrews 9:1-2 says, “Then verily the first covenanthad also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.” The first covenant had the ordinances as well as the Ten Commandments but the new covenant has only the Ten Commandments. Note that these ordinances unmistakably belong to the Hebrew sanctuary sacrificial system explained previously. It was the ordinances that were nailed to the cross “not one jot or one tittle” of any of the Ten Commandments.
 

JGIG

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Aug 2, 2013
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To JGIG. you are still in "KINDERGARDEN" in the word of God, You make no sense; you can not "rightly divid the word". "The law of God" has several meanings, you must contextualize the word in its context to see what is the meaning of the word is, in each context. Love to to all, Hoffco
i cannot correct you but only the word of God

Where on the tables of stone did God write 600 laws ?
That is one answer some more to go on what is sin

i will give you a hint the both answers are in 1 john
So instead of straight answers you two give insults and more questions.

Hoffco: You are correct in one sense; everything must be in proper context. For instance, are you in First Adam or Last Adam? Are you in the Old Covenant or in the New Covenant? Being clear on those points makes everything else fall into place.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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And Hebrews 9:1-2 says, “Then verily the first covenanthad also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.” The first covenant had the ordinances as well as the Ten Commandments but the new covenant has only the Ten Commandments. Note that these ordinances unmistakably belong to the Hebrew sanctuary sacrificial system explained previously. It was the ordinances that were nailed to the cross “not one jot or one tittle” of any of the Ten Commandments.
Sigh.

Hebrews 10:8-10
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Again, what you assert is just not there. Christ did away with the first - the whole thing - to establish the second. You're forcing a meaning into the text that is not there.

-JGIG


 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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The Ceremonial law and Colossians 2:16

Colossians 2:16 is one of the main areas of misunderstanding when it comes to understanding the ordinances of the ceremonial law, so we will cover this verse first followed by Galatians 4:9-10 and Romans 14:5, which are all related to the Mosaic law and what Paul is explaining in Colossians 2:16.In Colossians 2:16 it reads “Let no man therefore judge you in meat (offering), or in drink (offering), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” and so the argument is the fourth Commandment was deleted from stone. What was done away with here was called the ordinances (ceremonial law). This is clearly seen by noting what Paul said two verses earlier.

Colossians 2:14
states, “
blotting out the handwriting (has to be Moses handwriting) of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.” Paul then goes on to say, so “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Luke 1:6 KJV shows that the ordinances and the Ten Commandments are two totally different things. It states, “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Commandments and ordinances are contained within and are inextricable elements of the Law
.

Your assertion goes unproven.

-JGIG
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Well here goes another example. The ark of the covenant was overshadowed by two Cherubim looking down on the broken law. But, once a year when the high priest sprinkled the blood of the lamb on the ark. All they saw was the blood.

When I see the blood (not law) I will pass, I will pass over you. Thank you Jesus !!!
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
[h=2]What Laws are still valid to christians[/h]

All of them. One example, a detailed process of the act of repentance, which Jesus just consolidated into a plain language statement of "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand"

Leviticus 1
1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
God speaks to anyone who is "drawn out" in the bodily temple, concerning how that person congregates with his fellow man.

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Teach this to anyone who struggles with God... anyone who wants to please God, give up something valuable under your own control. (Animalistic behavior, anything from willful transgression to simple bad habit)

3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
If you plan on stopping the sin completely, you have to be serious about it and your intentions have to be without blemish. You have to do it because you want to, not simply because you think God is demanding your blind obedience. It needs to be directed at the way you deal with your fellow man, and be a good example.

4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
The outward result will be successful if the intent is pure, and the intent is to kill the sin from your heart. That's what brings reconciliation with God.

5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Before YHWH means earnestly, you can't hide your motives. Be prepared to admit fault and be openly sorry to your previous victims and fellow man. Be willing to make restitution if needed and possible.

6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
Be prepared to explain why you were committing your sin, in detail, don't dance around with excuses, just admit error and change of heart.

7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
Have a solid plan for change.

8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
Give the glory to God, not yourself.

9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
You must be of a solid mindset that sins are forgiven, and this is why you need to stop them. It honors God, and He loves it when you realize this.
Having forgiveness but continuing to sin is like taking $100k from your dad on your 18th birthday and saying "bug off you old coot" and leaving.


It's a language in symbolism rather than our idea of language.
The original Israelites understood this language but it didn't take long for them to start getting literal and start actually killing their animals instead of changing their hearts towards each other. :(
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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The Law still matters; it shows the unsaved their sin and their need for Christ - the 'schoolmaster', 'tutor', 'guardian' brings us to Christ and then, according to Scripture,

Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


What you said above is not referring to the ten commandments but the ceremonial law which was addaed becuse of trangressions
Very correct here.
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​
The ceremonies of the law were a shadow that pointed to the coming of Jesus Christ. As a shadow, they have great value. But now that the body (Christ Himself) has come, we are not required to continue practicing the shadow (see also Hebrews 10:1
). We are "are not to kill animals etc for sin
Let's look at Co 2:16-17 for moment...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


First of all, the Law is not mentioned in verse 16, food (Grk. brosis: eating, by extension food. Not speaking to meat in particular), drink (Grk. posis: drinking, drink), holyday (heortē: festival, feast day), new moon (noumēnia: festival of new moon, a new moon) and sabbath (Sabbaton: Sabbath). Note that days is in italics. This means it was not in the manuscripts but was added by the translators.

Now verse 17, notice the verb is are not was? From the Diaglott...

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things about coming, the but body of Anointed.

This is not past tense, it is about something yet to come. These not shadows of things that have come, they are shadows of things yet to come. Colossians was written somewhere around 58-62AD, this puts it 27 to 31 years AFTER the crucifixion and yet the things in verse 16 are shadows looking forward to future events.

Now also the word is in the phrase "but the body is of Christ" is in italics? Again, not in the manuscripts. What we have is the type of sentence Paul is fond of, a long sentnece with parenthetical thoughts in it...

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Parenthetical thought is "in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

The sentence is "Let no man therefore judge you but the body is of Christ." and then the word is should be left out so the sentence is really...

"Let no man therefore judge you the body of Christ."

And what are we to let no one but the body of Christ judge us in?

"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

So now, how does this do away with any of the Law?
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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what is the ark of the convenant ?

What was placed inside the ark ? why

what is sin ?
A depiction of the throne in heaven...

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is a shadow of the very throne from which the Father rules over all.

What is inside the Ark in heaven?

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

2Ch 5:10 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.

The Ten Commandments. The Ark that was fashioned and placed in the Holy of Holies was an exact replica of the Ark that is in heaven. Inside the Ark(s) are the Ten Commandments. The illustration is that God's Law (the Ten Commandments) is the foundation of the rulership of God.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Correct. Those who are not in Christ are at enmity with God. Those who have died with Christ and made alive in Him (Gal. 2:19-21) are released from the Law (Rom. 7:4-6, Eph. 2:14-16).

To go back to the Law is to be carnal; it's an exercise in futility because the Law makes nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19), and righteousness does not come from the Law (Gal. 2:21, Rom. 3:21-26, Philippians 3:7-9).


-JGIG
Nice twist but totally inaccurate...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind is totally unable to obey the Law of God. It cannot be subject to God's Law. The converted, Spiritual, mind can and is...

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Leviticus 9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And it came to pass on the eighth day, that Moses called Aaron and his sons, and the elders of Israel;
2 And he said unto Aaron, Take thee a young calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the Lord.
3 And unto the children of Israel thou shalt speak, saying, Take ye a kid of the goats for a sin offering; and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, for a burnt offering;
4 Also a bullock and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the Lord; and a meat offering mingled with oil: for to day the Lord will appear unto you.
5 And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.
6 And Moses said, This is the thing which the Lord commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the Lord shall appear unto you.
7 And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the Lord commanded.
8 Aaron therefore went unto the altar, and slew the calf of the sin offering, which was for himself.
Ah, to the altar, but there was only one day a year that the High Priest (Aaron in this case) could go behind the vail to the Holy of Holies and stand before the Mercy Seat, the Day of Atonement...

Lev 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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OUR SINS WERE LAISD ON jESUS JUST LIKE THE SCAPE GOAT

2 Corinthians 5
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
And Jesus wandered off into the wilderness and is still carrying them? No, Christ died and paid the price, the wages of sin, for us. He DIED. The Azazel goat was not put to death for sin, the ultimate responsibility for causing sin was laid on him.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Inside the Ark(s) are the Ten Commandments. The illustration is that God's Law (the Ten Commandments) is the foundation of the rulership of God.
You don't know what's in heaven, yet you state speculation as fact. And you are are a false witness because the foundation of the kingdom is Christ and the apostles, not the law of Moses:

Through [Christ] we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, Ephesians 2:18-20

No one is able to lay another foundation than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11

You are therefore an idolator who exalts the law of Moses above Christ.
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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the law of God (the Ten Commandments, or Two tablets of the Testimony,) also known as the moral law and the Decalogue. The Law of Moses (the “Book of the Law,” or “Book of the Covenant”), also known as the Mosaic Law, the Ordinances and the Sacrificial / Ceremonial Law. Is there a relationship between these two laws? Absolutely.

If an Israelite sinned, he broke law number 1, the moral law being the Ten Commandments. He then had to bring his offering according to law number 2, the sacrificial law to receive forgiveness. This is the relationship between these two laws. Law number 1 defines sin, as sin is the transgression of the moral law, the Ten Commandments (1 John 3:4). Law number 2 defined sacrifices which was the remedy for sin.

Galatians 3

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
What was added?

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

When were sacrifices added?

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

When did Ex 20 occur? Tradition has it that it was Pentecost and there is no reason to doubt this. At anyrate it was after the Passover and Days of Unleavened bread. So it had to be after the 22nd of the first month. Now the Tabernacle was set up on the 1st day of the 1st month. This had to be 9 months to almost a year later that sacrifices could be offered. So the sacrificial Laws are what was added...


Exo 40:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 40:2 On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Again, you are making distinctions and divisions in the Law that Scripture just does not make. If you violate one part of the Law, you violate it all (Gal. 3:10, James 2:10).

-JGIG
First of all, is there a distinction between the Law of Moses and the Law of God?

Moses wrote in a book...

2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.

God wrote on tablets of stone...

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Moses Law was put in the side of the Ark (could have been placed beside the Ark)

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

God's Law (the Ten Commandments) was placed inside the Ark...

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Are you saying that the 600+ laws in the Old Covenant are not from God, not part of the Law? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you seem to have been hinting at . . .



Everything that does not come from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23).

-JGIG
Ah the usual. Ignore this one...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And this one...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul plainly says here that the Law defines sin.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Ah the usual. Ignore this one...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
How many times does it have to be said that 1 John 3:4 does not say the above? It says that whoever commits sin does lawlessness (not transgresseth the law of Moses), and sin is lawlessness (not sin is the transgression of the law of Moses). Lawlessness is not believing in Christ and trying to enter the sheepfold another way, such as works of the law of Moses.
 

john832

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May 31, 2013
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Sigh.
Hebrews 10:8-10
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Again, what you assert is just not there. Christ did away with the first - the whole thing - to establish the second. You're forcing a meaning into the text that is not there.

-JGIG


Christ replaced the Old Covenant with the New. The Law is not the Covenant, it is the terms and conditions. Let's see what the author of Hebrews (I believe it to be Paul, YMMV) really says about the New Covenant...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The first thing we notice is that the fault is with the poeple, not the Covenant.

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Notice what the New Covenant is? The writing of God's Law in our hearts and minds. Now I am sure you are getting ready to say that is the Law of Christ not the Ten Commandments. Well, let's see. This passage is not a new statement by the author, it is a direct quote from...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their

Would you like to guess what Law this is? I'll help you...

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

The New Covenant is the writing of the Torah in our hearts and minds. Israel could not have the Law written in their hearts and minds...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Why was it not possible for them to have the Law written in their hearts and minds? This had not occurred yet...

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The apostles could not understand and did not have the Law written in their hearts and minds until this day...

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

This miracle has to take place in the mind of anyone God calls.

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

And what is the promise of the Father?

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The giving of the Holy Spirit to them.

The New Covenant is not about the doing away with the Law, it is the giving of the Holy Spirit to enable us to keep the Law.