What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?
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E
You preach it all the time. How else would I interpret it.
here I will give you one more chance.
Am I wrong or right in what I say??
Love your neighbor as yourself.If I do this. I do not need the words which say do not covet what your neighbor has, Do not bear false witness against your neighbor. Do not kill your neighbor. Do not fornicate with your neighbors daughter, or commit adultery with his wife. etc etc etc.I just use the law of love, and those things would not even cross my mind.
I made it small for you..
Yes or now. Is this wrong or right. and why?
is that so hard??
here I will give you one more chance.
Am I wrong or right in what I say??
Love your neighbor as yourself.If I do this. I do not need the words which say do not covet what your neighbor has, Do not bear false witness against your neighbor. Do not kill your neighbor. Do not fornicate with your neighbors daughter, or commit adultery with his wife. etc etc etc.I just use the law of love, and those things would not even cross my mind.
I made it small for you..
Yes or now. Is this wrong or right. and why?
is that so hard??
Let's take a look at the "ten Commandments" and see if it says love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Exodus 20:3-17 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not kill.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not commit adultery.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Thou shalt not steal.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Now let's take a look at the love commandments, and see if they are not more definitive than what we call the "Ten Commandments."
Deuteronomy 6:1-5 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Leviticus 19:11-18 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Now let's see what Jesus said about Moses comparing the Pharisees righteousness to the writings of Moses.
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I dare say that the Pharisees where not righteous in the sight of God even though many think they followed the law to the letter. Their tradition was repulsive to say the least.
Exodus 20:3-17 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not kill.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not commit adultery.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Thou shalt not steal.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Now let's take a look at the love commandments, and see if they are not more definitive than what we call the "Ten Commandments."
Deuteronomy 6:1-5 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Leviticus 19:11-18 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Now let's see what Jesus said about Moses comparing the Pharisees righteousness to the writings of Moses.
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
I dare say that the Pharisees where not righteous in the sight of God even though many think they followed the law to the letter. Their tradition was repulsive to say the least.
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You are wrong by saying I quoted something I never did. We should talk in private. We can go to a chat room just between you and I, and discuss this infraction. You call it.
Matthew 18:15-20 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Matthew 18:15-20 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
And the hypothetical answer is, no.
The fruit of the Spirit is not what saves you. Where in the fruit of the Spirit does it say we are baptized?
It does not...
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
but this scripture says that we must repent (quite sinning) and be baptized to receive the Spirit. So before you can produce the fruit of the Spirit, you must receive the Spirit. You are getting the cart before the horse.
The fruit of the Spirit is not what saves you. Where in the fruit of the Spirit does it say we are baptized?
It does not...
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
but this scripture says that we must repent (quite sinning) and be baptized to receive the Spirit. So before you can produce the fruit of the Spirit, you must receive the Spirit. You are getting the cart before the horse.
WRONG!
Paul says this...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
And he said it more than twenty years after his conversion. I gotta go with Paul on this one.
Paul says this...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
And he said it more than twenty years after his conversion. I gotta go with Paul on this one.
"those things" are not even crossing your mind, yet you write them here. Why are you so against the Lord putting them in scripture? If you were God and decided to write scripture, would you eliminate all instructions about how to express love?
I am going to go with how scripture is written, and not even think about redoing it. I accept it.
I am going to go with how scripture is written, and not even think about redoing it. I accept it.
E
lol.
No Actually Paul agrees with me.
If I sin. Then th elaw shows me that sin.
But that is not what I asked.
I asked, If I look to the law of "love my neighbor" Why do I need the law which says "do not" When I would not even be tempted to do the things I am told not to do.
I agree. and have said 1000 times (it seems that much anyway)
If I sin, The law shows me my sin, And shows me I am STILL not perfect.
No Actually Paul agrees with me.
If I sin. Then th elaw shows me that sin.
But that is not what I asked.
I asked, If I look to the law of "love my neighbor" Why do I need the law which says "do not" When I would not even be tempted to do the things I am told not to do.
I agree. and have said 1000 times (it seems that much anyway)
If I sin, The law shows me my sin, And shows me I am STILL not perfect.
Well EG and Gramps, how about explaining this to me? Perhaps you can tell me how I am misunderstanding this...
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I keep thinking that John says that keeping the Commandments is the love of God. Explain to me why it isn't true.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I keep thinking that John says that keeping the Commandments is the love of God. Explain to me why it isn't true.
E
No.
1. I would write the things which God has against us. And show you that you are guilty (the commands)
2. I would write the things which show how I will overcome you guilt. (the sacrifice)
Then I will allow them to do their job. Which is to convict you of sin, Show you how I overcame the penalty imposed by that sin. And continue to show you that even after you come to me, You still sin.
But I will not keep showing you over and over the things YOU NOW already know are true. I will instead, show you how to overcome those things which condemned you in the first place. And show you by example.
which is exactly what God did.
But for some reason. people want to keep looking at the things which already completed their purpose. And say that is how we know how to live right. When they were not written for that, nor are they able to do that.
And they are crossing my mind because some people in here keep telling me I HAVE TO FOLLOW THEM if I want to live a life of God and follow his ways. So how else would I explain my position?
I am going to go with the way scripture is written. And keep apposing those who try to show us the way to live a life of God by law. And not by the way God showed us with his life and his love.
Your never going to not lie by just looking to the law. And even if you did, You will be puffed up by it (like we see in here)
Your only going to not lie by acknowledging the fact, and seeing the life of Christ. That we do not sin ONLY when we are outward focused (love) and not inward focused (self, carnal, flesh, pride) which the LAW IS UNABLE TO SHOW US HOW TO DO
1. I would write the things which God has against us. And show you that you are guilty (the commands)
2. I would write the things which show how I will overcome you guilt. (the sacrifice)
Then I will allow them to do their job. Which is to convict you of sin, Show you how I overcame the penalty imposed by that sin. And continue to show you that even after you come to me, You still sin.
But I will not keep showing you over and over the things YOU NOW already know are true. I will instead, show you how to overcome those things which condemned you in the first place. And show you by example.
which is exactly what God did.
But for some reason. people want to keep looking at the things which already completed their purpose. And say that is how we know how to live right. When they were not written for that, nor are they able to do that.
And they are crossing my mind because some people in here keep telling me I HAVE TO FOLLOW THEM if I want to live a life of God and follow his ways. So how else would I explain my position?
I am going to go with the way scripture is written. And keep apposing those who try to show us the way to live a life of God by law. And not by the way God showed us with his life and his love.
Your never going to not lie by just looking to the law. And even if you did, You will be puffed up by it (like we see in here)
Your only going to not lie by acknowledging the fact, and seeing the life of Christ. That we do not sin ONLY when we are outward focused (love) and not inward focused (self, carnal, flesh, pride) which the LAW IS UNABLE TO SHOW US HOW TO DO
E
How?
Jesus showed us how.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Why do you need more. ALL the commands are fulfilled in these two commands.
Jesus showed us how.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Why do you need more. ALL the commands are fulfilled in these two commands.
It's an accusation that I never endorsed. Is that not incorrect or what? What should a I say yes or not to? You want me to say yes we should be under the law? I never advocated that in the least. What I did advocate was that the carnal mind in not subject to the law and cannot be. I say yes to that because scripture says so. That's not had to understand. Is it also hard for you to understand the words of Jesus in the scripture I presented?
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E
do you endorse following the law, And saying the command tells us how to be righteous before God. yes or no??
and why do you keep asking me a question when YOU REFUSE to answer mine?
Again!!
Love your neighbor as yourself.
If I do this. I do not need the words which say do not covet what your neighbor has, Do not bear false witness against your neighbor. Do not kill your neighbor. Do not fornicate with your neighbors daughter, or commit adultery with his wife. etc etc etc.I just use the law of love, and those things would not even cross my mind.
I made it small for you..
Yes or no. Is this wrong or right. and why?
How many times do I have to ask??
I endorse being subject to the law. I endorse that the carnal mind is not subject to the law because I agree with the word of God. I never said one should be under the law. You said that I said that, and that was not true. It's your imagination that speaks. I will ask you one more time to speak in private with me concerning your accusation.
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Some of the Scriptures that speak of the law written on the heart in regeneration are:
- Jeremiah 31:31-33 (ESV) – “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
- Jeremiah 31:31-33 (ESV) – “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant
- Ezekiel 36:26-27 (ESV) – “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
- Hebrews 8:10 (ESV) – “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
E
to add to this..
God laws is even written into the hearts of the unregenerate. (romans 1)
the passage you spoke of. is that we finally AGREE with th elaw. Which God said in romans 1 we already know (that is called repentance) And have the new law (the law of love) written in our hearts. so we know how to live for Christ.
God laws is even written into the hearts of the unregenerate. (romans 1)
the passage you spoke of. is that we finally AGREE with th elaw. Which God said in romans 1 we already know (that is called repentance) And have the new law (the law of love) written in our hearts. so we know how to live for Christ.