What must I do to be saved

mailmandan · Jul 16, 2018

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9) yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

plaintalk · Jul 16, 2018

As proclaimed by John the Baptist, baptism is of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. As taught by John, baptism in water is very much associated with the forgiveness of sons. When Jesus began His ministry, He continued this theme and when He authorized baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit, this theme continued, embracing all mankind. (Luke 24: 47; Acts 17: 30)

The washing and cleansing of baptism in water is a picture of the washing and cleansing by the blood of Christ. When we obey our Lord by repenting and being baptized we are sprinkled with the blood of our Lord, cleansed from an evil conscience. (1 Peter 1: 2) A look at Acts 22: 16 confirms that in this sense, baptism does wash away our sins even as repentance blots out our sins. (Acts 3: 19)

Baptism is one of the ways in which disciples are made. (Matt. 28: 18- 20) In as much as our Lord submitted to being baptized in water, doing likewise indicates that we are following Him.

Baptism is the picture or sign of entering into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3; Gal 3: 26, 27: 1 Cor. 12: 13) Since redemption, the forgiveness of sin, is “in Christ,” baptism is very much associated with the forgiveness of sin. (Eph. 1: 7; Col. 1: 14)

When we are baptized in water we are baptized into the death of Christ; when we are immersed we are buried with Him in baptism; and when we arise from the water, we do so in the likeness of His resurrection into newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3- 7) This dying with Christ frees us from sin connecting again baptism with the forgiveness of sin. (Rom. 6: 8)

When we obey that form of teaching—death, burial and resurrection—we are freed from sin; again connecting baptism with forgiveness. (Rom. 6; 17, 18)

“Baptism now saves you.” (1 Peter 3: 21) “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16: 16)

Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. (1 Peter 1: 21) Thus when we are baptized, we are calling on the name of the Lord to give us a good conscience. (Acts 2; 21; 22: 16)

Considering these verses it is clear that baptism is inextricably connected with the forgiveness of sin. Why then is Acts 2: 38 written as it is? Surely not to disassociate baptism from forgiveness; on the contrary, the purpose is to emphasize the importance of the baptism of each person who repents. “So then, those who had received the word were baptized, and these were added that day about three thousand souls.” (Acts 2: 41) These were being saved. (Acts 2: 47)
God bless

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

mailmandan said:

Christians need to know that faith can become dead AFTER you have believed. And just as the dead faith of the person who never 'really' believed can not save him, neither can the dead faith of the person who used to believe save him.

The seed of God's word will grow in the soil that will support it. All I'm doing is sowing the seed.

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

mailmandan said:

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9) yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Which is exactly why you have to have works to be saved.

plaintalk · Jul 16, 2018

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph. 2: 8, 9)

Some would have us believe that these two verses preclude works of any kind, including baptism, from being included in the way of salvation. What shall we do? As always, if we have a religious question, go to the Scriptures.

The Scriptures tell us that works of the law and works of righteous do not save. (Gal. 2: 16; Titus 3; 5, 6)

The Scriptures also tell us that there are works that lead to salvation, that is they are preformed prior to salvation. These include:
Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21; Rom: 10: 13, 14)
Repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Baptism (Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 10)
Confessing His name before mem. (Rom. 10: 10)
Obedience of faith. (Heb. 5: 9)
Washing of regeneration. (Titus 3: 5, 6)

The Scriptures also tell us that good works performed after salvation do contribute to salvation. (Rom. 2: 6- 10)

The Scriptures tell us that there are works that belong to the “faith” category, they are works of faith and labor of love. (1 Thess. 1: 3; 2 Thess. 2: 11; Rom. 1: 5; 16: 26; Acts 6; 7)

The Scriptures tell us that works (of faith) not only demonstrate faith but they perfect or complete faith (James 2: 22), yielding a working faith. Thus Genesis 15: 6 was fulfilled by Abraham’s works of faith. (James 2: 23) We are not justified by faith alone. (James 2: 24)

Now with these truths before us, we should be able to come to some valid conclusions.
God bless.

mailmandan · Jul 16, 2018

Ralph- said:

It’s not about must have works in order to be saved, but will have works if you truly are saved. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

Deade · Jul 16, 2018

Ralph- said:

mailmandan said:

We can then conclude that works will follow true salvation/conversion, right?

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

Deade said:

Or, more accurately, works will follow true faith.

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

mailmandan said:

Saved people prove all the time that it's just not that cut and dry: Sometimes saved people don't have works......because they no longer have faith, and the alarms bells don't go off because they have been taught that faith is all you HAVE to have to be saved when Jesus comes back, not knowing their disobedient, works-less lives may indicate the absence of the faith they may have once had.

So, the better way to say it is, you will have works if you truly have faith. A subtle but important clarification.

mailmandan · Jul 16, 2018

Deade said:

Ralph- said:

True faith results in salvation and works follow faith and salvation, so you are both right.

reneweddaybyday · Jul 16, 2018

Ralph- said:

I see God's faithfulness, ability and willingness to hold me to Him as greater than my faithfulness, ability and willingness to avoid stumbling. He tells us in many, many places in Scripture that He holds us, He will not allow us to be snatched away, He has given us eternal life, etc. etc.

In your scenario, what happens to the new heart given to the born again one in whom "God making repentance impossible, even if [he/she] want to repent"?

theanointedsinner · Jul 16, 2018

if this thread is prayer request in the prayer section ...

God, help us overcome our legalistic ways, help us stop leaning on our own understanding, you know how difficult it is to trust your love because of how untrustworthy our hearts can be, we are aware of even a small glimpse of how bad our hearts can be, none of our works can measure up, I ask that you help break the chains, the shackles and the rituals, yes man-made rituals, and you have stated in the parable of improperly mixing wineskins and the wine skins would tear, man made rituals can never mix with the grace of God. Help us, and lead us in the ways that even with our bad hearts, you can help us trust your love and that everything will be ok, you will fill us with the love that we can never deserve. Fill us to the brim, just like how in John 2, people have filled the jars to the brim, and your love can make even the wine-taster say "you have saved the best till now"

thank you
and amen

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

What stumbling are you referring to? Sinning the sins of the growing pains of the believing Christian, or the outright denial of Christ in unbelief?

reneweddaybyday said:

Yep. Nobody can wrest you away from God. You are safe and secure in Christ. That's why believers need to stay in Christ where it's safe.

reneweddaybyday said:

Yep. The Holy Spirit is the abundant life of God that never ends. Don't throw away the gift that keeps on giving. Keep believing.

reneweddaybyday said:

Can you rephrase the question? It doesn't make sense to me the way you have written it.

reneweddaybyday · Jul 16, 2018

Ralph- said:

Apologies for the confusion.

In your post #897, you stated "in Hebrews 12:17 the author uses Esau to illustrate God making repentance impossible, even if you want to repent".

My question is:

According to your scenario, what happens to the new heart given to the born again one when God makes repentance impossible, even if the believer wants to repent?

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

It becomes devoid of the Spirit that once inhabited it. You longer are in line for the inheritance (of which the Holy Spirit is the promise of) if you walk away from the justification you have in Christ. That's what Paul told the Galatians.

shrume · Jul 16, 2018

Ralph- said:

This is not true, Ralph.

First, the Christian new birth is permanent. I understand that you do not accept that, and for the moment, I'll play along with you... God wants us to forgive others 70 x 7 times. Would He do any less for a Christian who for whatever reason lost his faith, and then wanted to come back to God at a later point in life?

No, He would not. Not in a million years. There is nobody more forgiving than God.

Ralph- · Jul 16, 2018

shrume said:

It is permanent for the one who continues to believe, not for the one who turns back in unbelief.

shrume said:

But I do accept that.
It's just that the new birth is permanent for the person who continues to believe, not for the person who stops believing.

shrume said:

Don't misunderstand. He will forgive them if they repent of their unbelief in the space of time that he sets. I think it probably has a lot to do with why they left. He is the one who sees the heart, not us, and therefore, knows what just period of time to establish in which he will receive them back if they want to come back. You'll just have to accept that God himself uses Esau as the example to believers of the potential of not being able to come back in repentance from unbelief and being locked out from the birthright. It's right there in scripture. God is long suffering, not forever suffering.

shrume said:

You're right about nobody being more forgiving than God. But that hardly has to mean he doesn't draw the line somewhere. It just means he forgives in perfect knowledge and without the hindrances of fallen flesh.

You are aware that even in your own doctrine God can and will close the door to repentance in Hebrews 6:4. Even though you will say the passage is talking about those who never accepted the gift of life, the point is God makes it so they CAN'T come back in repentance. The passage says he doesn't allow it, not that they will never want to repent. Yet you are sure if they wanted to he would receive them at any time. That's not what the passage says. And neither does 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.

And don't forget the teaching of Jesus of how his Father will revoke the forgiveness he has given somebody if they treat the gift with contempt and do not forgive others as they have been forgiven (Matthew 18:23-35). He plainly says, that's how it is in the kingdom of heaven (vs. 23).

reneweddaybyday · Jul 17, 2018

Ralph- said:

You assume much when you infer that the record in Heb 12:17 relates to "the ex-believer".

In the record in Hebrews 12, the believer is shown as the one who endures the chastisement of Father God. The chastisement of the Father yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them who are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11).

Those who are bastards, and not sons (Heb 12:8) are those who would rather continue in fornication and profanity (Heb 12:16).

There are people sitting in churches who believe it's enough to go to a church service once a week (or on Christmas/Easter – those are big "church" days). They might even pitch in every now and again. But every other day of the week, they live just as the rest of the world does. They do not continue in the things they've been taught.

These are the ones who "despise the birthright". They listen to the pastor who preaches the gospel and do not believe.

These are the ones who are as Esau (Heb 12:16). They would rather continue in sin than receive the birthright – the right to be called sons of the Most High God. To enjoy the pleasures of sin for the moment is enough for them to reject what God is offering to them – the right to become a child of God.

And there will come a time when they stand before Father, and they will wail and gnash their teeth, but they will be rejected. Sad to say that after all God has gone through to reconcile mankind back to Himself, there were / are / will be some who reject God's grace in order that they may continue in the enjoyment of worldly pursuits.

Ralph- · Jul 17, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

It doesn't say it can't be talking about those who used to believe. You're impressing your 'once saved always saved' bias on the passage and can only see it applying to those who never believed when in fact the passage doesn't say that:

" 14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. "-Hebrews 12:14-17

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes, to "those who are trained by it"-Hebrews 12:11. You've concluded that the author is saying all true sons of God respond to discipline and continue in the faith and so further down in vs. 14-17 he can only be talking about those who never believed and became sons. But the author makes it clear that the effectiveness of God's discipline is for the sons who are trained by it. Not all sons are, obviously.

[QUOTE="reneweddaybyday, post: 3659299, member: 237620"
Those who are bastards, and not sons (Heb 12:8) are those who would rather continue in fornication and profanity (Heb 12:16).
[/quote]
You're impressing your bias onto the passage by automatically concluding that they could have never been sons to begin with. Nothing in the passage even suggests that. You're adding that to it's meaning.

[QUOTE="reneweddaybyday, post: 3659299, member: 237620"
There are people sitting in churches who believe it's enough to go to a church service once a week (or on Christmas/Easter – those are big "church" days). They might even pitch in every now and again. But every other day of the week, they live just as the rest of the world does. They do not continue in the things they've been taught.

These are the ones who "despise the birthright". They listen to the pastor who preaches the gospel and do not believe.
[/quote]
Now, without using the argument 'because once saved always saved is true' explain to us using the passage itself how Hebrews 12:14-17 can only be talking about people who never believed and can't be talking about people who used to believe.

[QUOTE="reneweddaybyday, post: 3659299, member: 237620"
These are the ones who are as Esau (Heb 12:16). They would rather continue in sin than receive the birthright – the right to be called sons of the Most High God. To enjoy the pleasures of sin for the moment is enough for them to reject what God is offering to them – the right to become a child of God.

And there will come a time when they stand before Father, and they will wail and gnash their teeth, but they will be rejected. Sad to say that after all God has gone through to reconcile mankind back to Himself, there were / are / will be some who reject God's grace in order that they may continue in the enjoyment of worldly pursuits.[/QUOTE]
There's no reason that the author can't be talking about people who never believed. I agree with that. Certainly they are included in the warning the author is giving. What you have to do is show why he can't be talking about people who stopped believing and went back to the world in unbelief, like the person represented in the 2nd type of soil. You can't say, "because once saved always saved is true". That's answering the question with the question.

You will see that, once again, this is a passage of scripture that automatically gets stripped of any potential for it to apply to former believers, not by what the passage actually says, but by impressing 'once saved always saved' bias onto it from the outside to make it only about people who never believed.

reneweddaybyday · Jul 17, 2018

Ralph- said:

It doesn't say it can't be talking about those who used to believe. You're impressing your 'once saved always saved' bias on the passage and can only see it applying to those who never believed when in fact the passage doesn't say that:

" 14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. "-Hebrews 12:14-17

Why don't you show where Esau was a believer.

You are comparing unbelieving Esau with believers.

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