What must I do to be saved

[Ralph-]

Why don't you show where Esau was a believer.

You are comparing unbelieving Esau with believers.

I expected this to be your first argument. But anyway...


Esau didn't have to be a believer for the warning to be useful to us who do believe. We see that from this passage:


"1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to wise men"-1 Corinthians 10:1-15


Remember, the point here is to show that the Bible does in fact use unbelievers who never believed to warn true believers who have. Paul uses unbelieving Israel to warn the church to not do what they did. So that destroys any attempt to insist the author of Hebrews can only be talking to people in the church who never believed.

And if you need still more convincing, consider how Adam is used as a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

First you state:

"... today we have the benefit of many good good books on the subject ... "

Then you state:

"Why can't we let the Bible be the final authority and accept what it really says ..."

So what do you want?

Your "good good books on the subject"?

Or "let the Bible be the final authority and accept what it really says"?

I say, let the bible be the ONLY authority. That is why it is important to back our statements up with book, chapter and verse. Gaining entrance into heaven by our works is a false doctrine and not the doctrine of Christ. Depending upon your good works to get you to heaven, is nothing but pride, which is at the top of God's list of the things he hates ( Pro 6:17 ). Those who depend upon their works say that believing, responding, confessing, accepting, repenting, etc, are not works. Anytime there is something man has to respond to to make the end result happen, it is works, and it makes man the savior of himself. Christ died on the cross as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, not for man's acceptance. All of the people that he died on the cross for, will live in heaven, without the loss of even one ( John 6:38-40 ).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Remember, the point here is to show that the Bible does in fact use unbelievers who never believed to warn true believers who have. Paul uses unbelieving Israel to warn the church to not do what they did. So that destroys any attempt to insist the author of Hebrews can only be talking to people in the church who never believed.

I figured you'd duck and cover — that's your standard mo.

You lay out your own pov. Then when someone responds with another pov, you insist that they have a preconceived agenda, they don't understand Scripture, and they need to prove your pov.

However, when someone requests that you prove your own pov, your reply is "I don’t have to, it's implied in another unrelated section of Scripture".

No one denies that God gives warning after warning to us. We live in a fallen world and we struggle against spiritual wickedness in high places. God lays out the strategy so we are able to overcome. We all know that.

And if you need still more convincing, consider how Adam is used as a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).

Yes, Adam ate of the fruit and joined his beloved in her fallen state. And Jesus Christ humbled himself, being found in fashion as a man. He came to preach the gospel to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, preach deliverance to the captives, give sight to the blind, set at liberty them that are bruised, preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Shouldn’t we follow in His footsteps and bring the good news of the gospel to those who are struggling?

Read the verses following Rom 5:14 —

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I say, let the bible be the ONLY authority. That is why it is important to back our statements up with book, chapter and verse.

Agreed.

Gaining entrance into heaven by our works is a false doctrine and not the doctrine of Christ.

The doctrine of Christ, is what Christ Jesus taught to and through His Apostles.


The Apostles doctrine originated from Christ, and is what Christ taught.


Jesus Christ continued to teach through His Apostles the Truth, the Way and the Life, because the Spirit of Truth was in them to lead them and guide.


The New Testament scriptures reflect the doctrine of Christ.


Those who love the Truth, and walk in the Truth and speak the Truth and practice the Truth, hear His Voice.

• I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
John 18:37


again


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7



31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32



9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Right. And how about these verses:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live

John 3:17 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God – vs 3] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Rightly divide the word of truth ( 2 Tim 2:15 ). Even though we have been born again of the Spirit, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature which causes a warfare within us, the flesh against the Spirit ( Gal 5:17 ) God sometimes refers to his children as being "the wicked". The natural man, void of the Spirit does not fight this warfare. When God's children become wicket, he chastens them. God does not chasten the wicked that are not his children ( Psalms 73:5 ) They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" like other men. Plagued according to the Greek interpretation means "divinely punished". Those that God chastens he loves and those that he does not chasten, he hates ( Rev 3:19 ) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Agreed.




The doctrine of Christ, is what Christ Jesus taught to and through His Apostles.


The Apostles doctrine originated from Christ, and is what Christ taught.


Jesus Christ continued to teach through His Apostles the Truth, the Way and the Life, because the Spirit of Truth was in them to lead them and guide.


The New Testament scriptures reflect the doctrine of Christ.


Those who love the Truth, and walk in the Truth and speak the Truth and practice the Truth, hear His Voice.

• I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
John 18:37


again


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7



31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32



9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT

Just because we have been born again, does not mean that our fleshly nature is not totally depraved. Before we were born again, we had but one nature, fleshly. ( 1 Cor 2:14 ) Now that we have been born again, we have two natures that war against each other, the flesh against the Spirit. ( Gal 5:17 ) When we yield to our fleshly nature, as we all do at times, we lose our fellowship with God during the times we are indulging in our fleshly nature. This does not mean that we lose our eternal destination. When we repent God accepts us back in fellowship with him. The scriptures you have quoted are warnings to his children.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What Must I Do To Be Saved?
After the death and resurrection of our Lord, the way of salvation was expounded by Peter on Pentecost in Acts 2. Some 3,000 Jews were converted and added to the number of those being saved; a list of the factors that were included is as follows:
(1) The gospel, the word of truth, was preached.
(2) The multitude heard the word.
(3) About 3,000 were pierced to the heart, believing the message.
(4) They asked, Brethren, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
(5) They were commanded to, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” Obviously they had not been saved when they first believed as they were still in their sins.
(6) They called on the name of the Lord by repentance and being baptized. (Acts 22: 16)
(7) They and their children and those who were far off Gentiles (Eph. 2: 13, 17) and as many as God would call to Himself (the elect), were promised the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Does this tell us everything we might wish to know about the way of salvation? Certainly not, but it is a beginning and since we are all saved by the grace of God in the same way (Acts 15: 11), this outline should be included in any discussion of, “What must I do to be saved?”
God bless

My bible says they were "pricked", which also means pierced and also means "to pain the mind sharply, to agitate it vehemently, and especially of the motion of sorrow". These men that were pricked were not the natural man, void of the Spirit, as described in 1 Cor 2:14. They would not have been able to discern what Peter was preaching about. We can be saved (delivered) by being baptized, but not eternally, we,also, can be saved (delivered) by coming to a knowledge of the truth, but not eternally. The child of God will repent when he feels the burden of sin, but the natural man will not, because repenting involves being able to discern spiritual things,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I would say that the child of God is no longer depraved. Unsaved children of their father Adam are depraved. We have been adopted into Gods family and are now children of God whom we now address as Abba Father.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, Though we are born again, we do still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature that wars against our Spirit ( Rom 7:18-21 ) For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not, For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do. I find then a law, that , when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

the main reason is because those who are saved argue about being saved. they are both prideful and do more harm then good. Just like the democrats and republicans .
they are hell bent on being right and minster to know one. the are a bunch of half baked cakes.

Pride is involved when men lift themselves up to being their own savior by performing good works.

 

[Ralph-]

You lay out your own pov. Then when someone responds with another pov, you insist that they have a preconceived agenda, they don't understand Scripture, and they need to prove your pov.

However, when someone requests that you prove your own pov, your reply is "I don’t have to, it's implied in another unrelated section of Scripture".

I already showed right from the Hebrews 12 passage itself that the author is not excluding in any way that the person who rejects the birthright could have once believed. I don't need a preconceived belief to read and understand the passage to mean he is talking about, both, those who never believed and those who used to believe being like Esau.

Your claim is that it can only be about a person who never believed. And the only way you can make that claim is to insert the predetermination that only people who never believed to begin with can lose the birthright. You have to do that because there is nothing in the passage itself that supports that claim. I don't have to do that to make my claim.

 

[plaintalk]

My bible says they were "pricked", which also means pierced and also means "to pain the mind sharply, to agitate it vehemently, and especially of the motion of sorrow". These men that were pricked were not the natural man, void of the Spirit, as described in 1 Cor 2:14. They would not have been able to discern what Peter was preaching about. We can be saved (delivered) by being baptized, but not eternally, we,also, can be saved (delivered) by coming to a knowledge of the truth, but not eternally. The child of God will repent when he feels the burden of sin, but the natural man will not, because repenting involves being able to discern spiritual things,

I am not sure what "saved, but not eternally" means. Please explain; you make an inference from 1Cor. 2: 14 that does not appear to be supported by the text, the Scriptures indicate that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they repented and were baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. The text indicates that they were able to discern what Peter was preaching about and that they were still in a condition of sin.
God bless

 

[justpassinthrough]

Just because we have been born again, does not mean that our fleshly nature is not totally depraved. Before we were born again, we had but one nature, fleshly. ( 1 Cor 2:14 ) Now that we have been born again, we have two natures that war against each other, the flesh against the Spirit. ( Gal 5:17 ) When we yield to our fleshly nature, as we all do at times, we lose our fellowship with God during the times we are indulging in our fleshly nature. This does not mean that we lose our eternal destination. When we repent God accepts us back in fellowship with him. The scriptures you have quoted are warnings to his children.

So far I agree with your statement. However, I suspect that may change.


We will see.


9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


again


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



If someone does not have fellowship [communion; common union - intercourse] with Him, then by definition they have become lost.


James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save [l]a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner

Clear enough.




JPT

 

[plaintalk]

Why would you even say such a thing.


They way the bible says we receive faith, is by hearing God speak to them.


It's up to the person to believe in their heart and obey what they heard.



JPT

Before we draw conclusions, we need to list as many factors about coming to faith as we can identify.
faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom. 10: 17)
we believe with our heart. (Rom. 10: 9)
faith and love are commands of Christ. (1 John 3: 23)
faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29)
those that believe have been begotten by God and given the right to become His child. (John 1: 12, 13)
faith is a gift of God (Rom. 12: 3)
the first requirement in coming after Jesus is to deny self. (Matt. 16: 24)
we believe by the grace of God. (Acts 18: 27)
God opens our heats to respond to the message. (Acts 16: 14)
we are begotten by God to faith and more. (1 John 5: 1)
God reveals the truths which are the basis of our faith. (Matt. 16: 16, 17)
We are begotten by God to love. (1 John 3: 9)
God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. (James 4: 6)

Love: we are commanded to love; we are begotten to love, but we don't love merely by deciding to love; we love because he first love us. (1 John 4: 19)

Faith: we are commanded to believe; we are shown what to believe in the word but do we just decide to start believing by our own volition? We must deny self in coming after Jesus; God gives grace to the humble; God begets us to faith, love, hope, obedience, holiness, overcoming and not sinning and He gives us the right to become children of God; when we are called He opens our heart to respond; faith is a work of God; by His grace He gives us faith mingled with love and hope; as our heart receives these gifts we are motivated to obey the works of faith He has appointed to perfect our faith, not to merit righteousness. We are redeemed, justified and saved by a perfected faith, an obedient faith motivated by love.
God bless.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rightly divide the word of truth ( 2 Tim 2:15 ). Even though we have been born again of the Spirit, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature which causes a warfare within us, the flesh against the Spirit ( Gal 5:17 ) God sometimes refers to his children as being "the wicked". The natural man, void of the Spirit does not fight this warfare. When God's children become wicket, he chastens them. God does not chasten the wicked that are not his children ( Psalms 73:5 ) They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" like other men. Plagued according to the Greek interpretation means "divinely punished". Those that God chastens he loves and those that he does not chasten, he hates ( Rev 3:19 ) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore, and repent.

God does and will continue to deal with the wicked:

Proverbs 11:

20 They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.

21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.


Just because God, in His infinite benevolence, showers blessings from heaven on the just and unjust alike, does not mean God does not deal with unbelievers.

I acknowledge the chastening of the Lord in dealing with His children is not the same as God dealing with those who are not His children.


Here is the worldly thinking of the unbeliever:

Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.


And because the unbeliever does not humble him/herself in the sight of God, the unbeliever will never acknowledge that his/her problems are a direct result of his/her refusal to submit to God.


Here's more verses about the unbeliever:

Jeremiah 17:

5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.


The unbeliever can't even see when good comes.


Now compare that with what God says about the believer in the next couple of verses:

Jeremiah 17:

7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.


The believer is blessed with God's blessing even in the midst of the heat of drought and fruit abounds in his/her life.


Don't tell me God does not chasten/punish the unbeliever. He does ... just not in the manner we think He should.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I already showed right from the Hebrews 12 passage itself that the author is not excluding in any way that the person who rejects the birthright could have once believed.

No, you didn't. In order for your supposition to be compelling, you would have to show that Esau was a believer who became an "ex-believer".

I don't need a preconceived belief to read and understand the passage to mean he is talking about, both, those who never believed and those who used to believe being like Esau.

Yes, you do rely on your "preconceived belief" that God is unable to keep that which He promised.

Your claim is that it can only be about a person who never believed. And the only way you can make that claim is to insert the predetermination that only people who never believed to begin with can lose the birthright. You have to do that because there is nothing in the passage itself that supports that claim.

Really? Esau was not a believer. I know it. You know it. But somehow we're supposed to glean that a believer will "lose the birthright" based upon a record of an unbeliever who sold his birthright?

I don't have to do that to make my claim.

But you did do that, and you continue to do that.

 

[Ralph-]

In order for your supposition to be compelling, you would have to show that Esau was a believer who became an "ex-believer".

No, I don't need to show that Esau was a believer who became an ex-believer. My argument does not hinge on that premise. Your's does. I'm saying the passage applies to both those who never believed and those who stop believing. Only for your predetermined purpose does it hinge on that. YOU need that premise which is not contained in the passage, not me.

What I showed you is the author himself uses Esau, an unbeliever, to tell the believers he's talking to, to not forfeit their birthright as Esau did by being godless and immoral. That's the plain understanding of the passage all contained right in the passage and it goes completely against once saved always saved doctrine. That's why you have to read the passage with the predetermined conclusion that real believers can't forfeit their birthright, and so the author can not be talking about, or to real believers. You have to do that because the passage doesn't say that. You are the one who must make the plain words of the passage 'not really' mean what it says using a predetermined doctrine in order to defend that predetermined doctrine. That's called called 'circular reasoning'.

 

[Ralph-]

...somehow we're supposed to glean that a believer will "lose the birthright" based upon a record of an unbeliever who sold his birthright?

Yes, because that is what the author is plainly saying to the believers he is addressing.

Don't turn back to the world in unbelief. Keep believing. Don't forfeit the birthright like Esau did.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Got Questions
Fair Use

Question: "Where does faith come from?"

Answer: Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16).

By knowing our saving faith comes from God alone, it should encourage Christians to “not think of yourself more highly than you ought,” but remember God decides the measure of faith each one receives (Romans 12:3). The apostle Paul gives an example of the godly humility believers should have when they contemplate their own faith: “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:13–14). Paul understood faith in Christ was given to him because of God’s grace in spite of his own sinful life (1 Corinthians 4:7).

The Bible specifies the way, or the means, that God gives faith to people. “Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ” (Romans 10:17). It is the Word of God that produces faith. Someone could receive faith while hearing a sermon teaching the gospel, someone else by reading about Jesus in the Bible—any time the true gospel of Jesus is communicated, there is potential for faith. This is why it’s of paramount importance for believers everywhere to be obedient to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16–20) and tell people what Christ has done for humanity. Faith is not the product of a preacher’s compelling presentation, his eloquence, or even his theological soundness—faith is given through the message about Jesus. This is the means God has chosen.

It is good for anyone who wants faith to ask for it. God freely gives what is good to all who ask (Luke 11:9–12), and it’s good to ask for an increase of faith (Luke 17:5; Mark 9:24). Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith to be strengthened (Luke 22:32). As with any gift from God, it is our responsibility to exercise the gift and not become complacent, lazy, or apathetic (Romans 12:1–2, 6–8). Christians can find comfort and peace of mind knowing their faith is from God, because He has said He will finish the good work He started (Philippians 1:6). God is the Author and the Perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2a; Romans 8:29–30).

 

[justpassinthrough]

Before we draw conclusions, we need to list as many factors about coming to faith as we can identify.
faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom. 10: 17)
we believe with our heart. (Rom. 10: 9)
faith and love are commands of Christ. (1 John 3: 23)
faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29)
those that believe have been begotten by God and given the right to become His child. (John 1: 12, 13)
faith is a gift of God (Rom. 12: 3)
the first requirement in coming after Jesus is to deny self. (Matt. 16: 24)
we believe by the grace of God. (Acts 18: 27)
God opens our heats to respond to the message. (Acts 16: 14)
we are begotten by God to faith and more. (1 John 5: 1)
God reveals the truths which are the basis of our faith. (Matt. 16: 16, 17)
We are begotten by God to love. (1 John 3: 9)
God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. (James 4: 6)

Faith must be activated, or it remains dormant, dead and inactivate, in which it is unable to produce the intended divine result, which in our initial salvation is justification: justification by faith.


Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who obey the Gospel who are saved.


James explains -

• by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.


Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage


The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.


Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

JPT

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, because that is what the author is plainly saying to the believers he is addressing.

Don't turn back to the world in unbelief. Keep believing. Don't forfeit the birthright like Esau did.

You assume your conjecture is true and base your conclusion on that belief.

The lesson taught in Heb 12:14-17 has nothing to do with "losing salvation". Not every record in Scripture is to be viewed as "watch out – you'll lose salvation if you're not careful".

The lesson in Heb 12 has to do with the root of bitterness springing up and trouble you (Heb 12:15) due to our failure to adhere to the instruction of God.

We can be very foolish and our foolishness lands us in a heap of trouble. As we are chastened by God and fellowship is reestablished and thereby have the peaceable fruit of righteousness restored, we still carry the remembrance of our foolishness in our memory. And sometimes, our foolishness can result in drastic changes to our lives which we have to live with for the rest of our days on this earth.

We can repent of our actions, be restored to fellowship with Father, but still have to live with the consequence of our actions. And I'm not talking about losing salvation. I'm talking about some foolishness we engage in that results in lifelong results.

This is just an example and I do not know of anyone this has happened to, and I hope/pray it is received as just an example:

How about a man or woman who is married and has an affair which results in a pregnancy? That is something someone has to live with for the rest of their life. That act of sin can affect a person for the rest of his/her life, as well as a child born under such circumstances, and extended families of all parties involved.


Now, go back and read Genesis 27. Isaac received the blessing of the birthright. When Esau went in to Isaac, he learned that Jacob had already received the blessing.

Esau then accused Jacob of taking away his birthright (when he knew full well he had sold it). He also accused Jacob of taking his blessing (Gen 27:36).

Esau then asked Isaac for a blessing, and Isaac did not reject him (Gen 27:39-40).

Please note also that God gave Esau the land of mount Seir (Deut 2:5).

So we see that this section of Scripture does not deal with God rejecting someone who is repentant, and the person somehow "loses" salvation. Heb 12 deals with consequences we must live with when we behave foolishly. We will live with the error of our ways, just like Esau had to live with the consequences after having sold his birthright.