What Paul taught other than romans 8:1 lol

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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No, I think you are the one confusing things. Jesus made no such distinction.
Nope he isn't confusing anything. In fact if you read John 6 you will find that both the WORK and WILL of GOD is the same thing...that all should look to the SON and HE will raise us up on the last day...


John 6:29 is JESUS telling the people what the WORK of GOD is
John 6:40 is JESUS telling the people what the WILL of GOD is
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....

How foolish this nonsense is when we do not factor in the "will of the Father" for salvation in being with the Lord when we die. If we do not factor in the completed work of Christ for our salvation then we will come up with all kinds of man-made "works" we must do to "help" Jesus with our salvation.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say..not doing the will of God are not
saved without factoring in just what is the "will of the Father" for salvation .

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13
 
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mailmandan

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Then why not do what Jesus says to do? lol
When did I say that I don't do what Jesus says to do?

if you trust Him HE is saying clearly as are all the other apostles do what Jesus is saying.
The problem is that too many people turn "do what Jesus says" into salvation by works. Jesus said believe in Him, not trust in works salvation.

no the gospel is not the gospel of Grace.
Yes it is. Acts 20:24 - But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

In Galatians 1:6, Paul had to rebuke the Galatians - I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel. Many people trust in works for salvation and works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

1 Corinthians 15:1 - Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

why do you think there are only 4 books called the gospel according to matthew, the gospel according to mark, the gospel according to Luk, and the gospel according to John? the others are epistles not gospels.
It wasn't to discredit the gospel of the grace of Christ.

its the doctrine that's telling you that the goepl is found in paul. what does paul say of following Him ? or appolos??? doesn't he thank God that he didn't baptize them so that they cant say "i follow paul'? if you don't reject obedience why when obedience is mentioned is the continuos label " salvation by works spoken"?
Salvation by works is not obedience. Believers obey Christ BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved by works.

Ive said 10 times probably in this thread salvation is a gift, Not for the purpose of remaining the same, not for the purpose of anything other than obedience to Jesus Christ.
Obedience/good works is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY (Ephesians 2:8-10).

I'm not making up what Jesus Himself says am I? if you have a Bible handy, look in it for yourself and see Him saying, you must do these things, or your destruction will come to you. its Jesus who said we must obey, not a flase doctrine I'm making up. Paul had great revelation that is important, it is in no way a substitute for Jesus words is it?
What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26? What did Jesus say we "must" obey in order to become saved "in addition" to repent and believe the gospel?

Paul enables believers to follow Jesus, that's all paul is revealing. " you died and now you are new, clean and have a spirit od holiness" Now there is no excuse to not follow the Lord is the revelation of paul. the gospel is Jesus and only Jesus, paul never changed or argued that. his statements about salvation by works is to say " you cant be saved by obeying the mosaic Law" it has nothing to do with obeying Jesus Christ. Its not salvation by works to obey Jesus, its living as children of God, following the Only Child of Gods teachings, commands. that is our life. and Jesus Himself warns of not doing what He says repeatedly as do all the words in the Bible, nearly every single book, including most of pauls letters.
Again, believers/children of God obey Jesus BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You seem to be trusting in your best efforts to obey ALL the teachings and commands of Jesus as the means of your salvation. That is works salvation. BTY, when it comes to the MORAL aspect of the law, you cannot dissect obedience to Christ from the law (Matthew 22:37-40).

to become a child is to follow His Son.
We are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26). Also see John 1:12. Following His Son is the result of becoming a child of God.

to trust in His words the only true gospel.
So the gospel according to you is trust in the words of Jesus by PERFECTLY obeying Him to receive eternal life?

paul was only eb=nabling people to live the true gospel. peter condenses the atonement in one verse 1 peter 2:24 " He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, SO THAT we might die to sins and live for righteousness ; By HIS wounds you HAVE BEEN healed."......the healing from the disease of sin is what happened in the atonement. none of this excludes obedience but enables and fully supports it. trying to work for salvation is trying to gain it through the mosaic law, impossible. it is only found in Christ
Philippians 3:9 - and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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When did I say that I don't do what Jesus says to do?

The problem is that too many people turn "do what Jesus says" into salvation by works. Jesus said believe in Him, not trust in works salvation.

Yes it is. Acts 20:24 - But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

In Galatians 1:6, Paul had to rebuke the Galatians - I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel. Many people trust in works for salvation and works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

1 Corinthians 15:1 - Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

It wasn't to discredit the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Salvation by works is not obedience. Believers obey Christ BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved by works.

Obedience/good works is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY (Ephesians 2:8-10).

What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26? What did Jesus say we "must" obey in order to become saved "in addition" to repent and believe the gospel?

Again, believers/children of God obey Jesus BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You seem to be trusting in your best efforts to obey ALL the teachings and commands of Jesus as the means of your salvation. That is works salvation. BTY, when it comes to the MORAL aspect of the law, you cannot dissect obedience to Christ from the law (Matthew 22:37-40).

We are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26). Also see John 1:12. Following His Son is the result of becoming a child of God.

So the gospel according to you is trust in the words of Jesus by PERFECTLY obeying Him to receive eternal life?

Philippians 3:9 - and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
Awesome!

Love that TRUTH...wanting to be found in HIM, not professing a false sense of my own self-righteousness apart from HIS ROYAL ROBES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Love it.

The "Righteous" shall live by faith
From faith ------------------------------------->to faith
From first -------------------------------------->to last

What we began in is what we will end in.

As to "rewards"?

Let's all review the parable of the workers in GOD'S VINEYARD...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No, I think you are the one confusing things. Jesus made no such distinction.
No, you are the one who remains confused. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church many years ago, I didn't understand the distinction either. Saved by grace through faith (His will for us to become saved) FOR good works (His will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith) - Ephesians 2:8-10.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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One "work" we were supposed to do, if you notice it in the above parable, was to fulfill the ministry of CHRIST...
Just like Paul, who entered into the LORD'S LABOR at the heat of the early days, understood that he was at the end of the line, encouraging those little babies who were beautiful and fresh from the Lord's presence, having not weathered the heat of the day, while he, Paul, having weathered the heat of the day, looked careworn and the picture of death.

And guess who was rewarded first?

The Last who came in at the Last hour
Want to know why?

Because they are fresh and perfect having just been called they did not have to weather the storms of life...
GOD is AWESOME and it is RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS that the Last should be first!

They're babies

Now the ones who claim to be mature, well...they should be doing the work that they were called to do and stop looking at their hands doing it.

And stop looking at their brothers/sisters hands alongside them
 
Sep 4, 2012
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No, you are the one who remains confused. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church many years ago, I didn't understand the distinction either. Saved by grace through faith (His will for us to become saved) FOR good works (His will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith) - Ephesians 2:8-10.
Which means we must do his will after being saved to be saved.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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There you go again HeRoseFromTheDead, teaching works to maintain our Salvation.

Exactly how did we receive Salvation?

Ephesians 2:8,9
[FONT=&quot]8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
Its by Grace that we receive Salvation. Not by doing the will of the Father.

So tell me HeRoseFromTheDead if we receive Salvation from God by His Grace, then how can we lose our Salvation by not doing the will of the Father?

Salvation is not received by anything we do. Its received when God in His Grace gives it to us with no strings attached.

Why are you teaching the Doctrines of men? You need to stop listening to the Catholic Church. Its the Catholic Church that teaches we need to maintain our Salvation by our works. I rejected the Catholic Church decades ago to follow God.
 
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If obedience is mandatory to receive or keep Salvation, then Salvation is not received by Grace but by our Works.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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If obedience is mandatory to receive or keep Salvation, then Salvation is not received by Grace but by our Works.
I agree with what you are saying but in the strictest sense we must be obedient to the faith and believe in what Christ ahs done for us in His salvation and redemption for us. Obedience to the faith is believing in all that Christ has done for us in His death and resurrection.

This is the "work" of the Father - to believe in Christ's sacrifice only for salvation.

We will follow the Lord because we are saved and do what He empowers us to do by His grace alone.

The good works we do after we are saved are a manifestation of His life being expressed in and through us to others.

There are no works "in order to be saved or maintain salvation" ( going to be with the Lord when we die )
 
Nov 22, 2015
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So how much obedience does it take? It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation and it's not Christ alone.
I agree..what happens to him in this theory that one must do the will of God ( what ever that means for things if it is not defined out? )

What happens to him if he is speeding and crashes his car and then dies? - he is not doing "the will of God" as 1 Peter 2:13-16 says.

In his works-based theory - he would be a goner because it takes absolute 100% the righteousness of God in order to be with the Lord.

Or what happens to him if he is isn't joyful for a week?..that is the will of God too...he dies without being joyful for a week...he would not be righteousness enough to make it into heaven.

If someone is trusting in their own 100% obedience to do the will of God = then they are not going to make it. This is where the true gospel of the grace of Christ for salvation comes in mighty handy!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So how much obedience does it take? It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation and it's not Christ alone.
100% obedience, if you mess up, you have to repent and get saved again...and again...and again...:)
 
Jun 1, 2016
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You are confusing God's will for us to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Gods will is for all men to come to obedience through Faith. Faith doesn't nullify obedience or Gods wrath upon the disobedient it is a means to Obey which leads to eternal Life. Look at the first section of Romans. What is the purpose of Faith ?romans 1:5 " Through Him and for His names sake, we received grace and apostleship to CALL people from among the Gentiles TO THE OBEDIENCE that comes FROM FAITH." faiths purpose, all of pauls words of righteousness by faith are for the very purpose of calling people to obedience to Jesus Christ, the Gospel. Without responding to that call to obedience faith is not faith. Think to yourself if God was willing to just accept disobedience and say grace covered it, why in the world did Jesus come and die?

The only way to remove sin in us, was for Jesus to become sin and die in our place. when the 3rd chapter says no one is righteous no not one, to look and understand by reading the context v 20 " therefore no one will be declared righteous by observing the Law, the law makes us conscious or sin"

the very next verse. Now a RIGHTEOUSNESS from God, apart from Law has been made Known.." this righteouseness is actual rithgeousness that we live out. its not saying because Jesus was righteous, my disobedience is not going to be punished. the righteousness by faith has already been imparted to the believer, this does not remove accountability by any means, it removes the excuse to remain in disobedience. that's why grace is distorted.look at what paul writes in 3:5-8.

Faith is not an illusion or thought, its belief in action. Look at the context of all hes saying in romans. it isn't a grace that allows for sinfulness, or disobedience, the grace paul is teaching is for obedience to Jesus. grace is not understood because of the distortions. Look simply at 2:5-16 if you think faith saves us from our own actions after receiving Christ and righteousness by Faith. Paul says his own gospel declares this after telling of Gods coming wrath whether under law or apart from law, wrath coming upon all the world because of unrepentant hearts and disobedience,

Romans 2:6-11 " God will give to each person ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE. to those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE. But for those who are self seeking and WHO REJECT TRUTH and follow evil THERE WILL BE WRATH AND ANGER. there will be trouble and distress for EVERY HUMAN BEING WHO DOES EVIL; first for the jew, then for the gentile. BUT GLORY HONOR AND PEACE FOR EVERYONE WHO DOES GOOD, first for the jew, then for the gentile. FOR GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM."

The things paul taught are for the express purpose of obedience and righteousness, because through this righteousness that is available to us by faith, we are saved it only came by Grace, grace is not to say the punishment is gone for those who persist in disobedience. Grace is what gives us the power to live obedient Lives to God, that is what saves us from the coming wrath.
look at those verses they are clear and not out of context as so many people pluck and make it seem as if these verses aren't there. this is a warning by paul establishing early on the importance of obedience and also the coming wrath for disobedience. clear. and it is also found in more of His letters that I have already left throughout this thread. Paul in no way is ever saying grace means your saved no matter what you do. He infact often is making clear the opposite, that what we do now that Jesus died to make us right with God, is ever important, Grace doesn't free us to not worry about our actions. Grace makes us fully able and without the excuse of being under the mosaic law. were declared righteous already. we have faith for obedience already. and also we have many many repeated and clear warnings against not obeying. grace is mis taught by the world and the humanistic versions of Gods good and righteous and capable Grace.

Paul indeed does not in anyway ever say obedience is not of the utmost importance, it is. Faith brings obedience because of Grace. Obedience or disobedience will bring just what he said here. Blessing or wrath. People distorting pauls message was warned about several times in scripture, peter warned of it, jude warned of it , john warned of it. its easy for the carnal mind to look at pauls writings and say grace covers disobedience, grace forgave all our sins, and grace made us new and righteous. were starting from a point of righteousness now, not sin as before. what will we do with this amazing Grace is what will determine our eternal fate. God has done all things to save man, but he will never take free will from us. its been about choice from the beginning, God has given us in Christ every advantage, every provision to live righteous lives in Gods sight and reap the benefits wich are immeasurable in this life and eternity.

another statement that comes to mind from paul I believe in galatians 6 Do not be deceived God cannot be mocked a man reaps what he sows, the one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction, the one who sows to pleas the spirit will reap eternal life".........sowing is work effort. Grace is not what it is made to be that the world is running after by the masses, Doing what God says is the most important part of Life and there is punishment coming on those who choose another king, they too will share in his kingdom, but it is also in scripture plainly and clearly. 2 ways to go to Jesus......or the other guy Jesus made us able, paul made that clear, now its obedience and live or disobedience and suffer
 
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Which means we must do his will after being saved to be saved.

its the doctrine in them, have you noticed when a few others gather how the attitudes change lol. I think theres no getting through wich really shows the terrible nature of that doctrine above so many others. this particular doctrine is destroying people and their convinced and will go in circles and avoid everything that opposes that were just saved sinners. I'm glad God made us able to live right before Him, beneficial now and such a comfort to look forward to eternity. I'm gonna let this one go, its like arguing with a brick wall, anything other than a joseph prince study guide is rejected as herecy, though its scripture after scripture after scripture saying the truth. I been doin this off n on since January prolly quoted half the bible, but if its not what man wants, man rejects. God bless you bro. I hope your able to make some headway n crack the armor around their doctrine, I find it to be pretty solid and inpenatrable.

it is the easiest to hear for the flesh.......
 
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by the way guys in around a year there will be a "bible" on the presses that supports the grace alone doctrine and verses like the many that are present now, will be removed good luck with that one.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The rich young mans money meant more to Him than Jesus is the lesson there. He wasn't willing to give up His god to serve and follow the Son of God.

hey -- i know that's what everyone says and what you've probably been taught since you were a child, because that's what "everyone says"
it's the "
standard teaching" of this passage.

but the Bible does not say that this man wasn't willing to give up his possessions, or that he didn't. all it says is that he went away sad because he had great possessions. then the disciples wonder if anyone could be saved, and then Christ tells His disciples that "
all things are possible with God."

maybe this man was sad because he fully intended to sell everything, give it to the poor and come and follow Christ. why would he be sad about his possessions if he was planning on keeping them? wouldn't he go away a bit miffed instead of sad? would he be sad at all if he had rejected God and what Christ had told him? i think no, in that case he would not have gone away sad at all.

so the Bible doesn't say what the "
standard teaching" says at all -- that's totally extrapolation & opinion. speculation. the actual text doesn't give this indication - and if it gives any indication at all of what direction speculation ought to take, it might just be that the man actually did as Christ told him he should do.


it makes a nice sermon, i guess -- giving the moral message that we shouldn't love riches, beating the congregation over their heads with anti-materialism. but even if that message is a good one, it's not what the Bible actually says.
this man had kept the law all his life - he had respect for God. what he sought wasn't riches; he sought eternal lie: he was seeking the kingdom of God. and this young man came to Jesus to find it. where is the fault in this man, for any of these things that the story tells us about him? just because he was wealthy? is that why we fault him?
and he would not have been sad unless he took to heart and believed what Christ had told him.

the next thing Jesus says is that it is
hard for a rich man to enter heaven, but that nothing is impossible with God.


it sounds to me like Jesus is talking about hope for this man in the immediate context, but we're all like the disciples -- assuming that because he was rich, he'll never enter the kingdom.



((sorry if i'm ranting -- this passage is sort of a pet peeve with me
:p))
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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why would he be sad about his possessions if he was planning on keeping them? wouldn't he go away a bit miffed instead of sad?

try telling people that you agree with a politician who wants to use your tax money to provide social programs like universal healthcare and education to all citizens, independent of their income, and boy, they don't go away sad. they vehemently disagree with you and go away pretty miffed.

what's the impression i get of those people? certainly not that they are more than willing to give their money to the poor.

if however, those people went away sad, because such policies would mean they might be taxed at a high rate -- instead of angry about it -- what do you think, would you get the impression that they were actually considering doing such a thing, or that they had completely rejected the idea?


((oh snap post, you did not just actually say that!!))