When are we saved ?
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I simply believe that God purposed that whosoever would believe would be placed in him .
And He chose those whom He knew would believe. You have them being chosen in time after they believe based on faith. I have them chosen before time based on foreknowledge. Either way, God is choosing some and not choosing others, right? In your theology, God is not choosing people who don't believe, right?
We know God knows what he knows from whats revealed within the scriptures This is where we are on loose footing . If we stick to the Scriptures we won't end up with philosophy about God that even atheists decide without God . About time , about determinism , fate , possible worlds, possible outcomes , causation ect . The trap starts with ' God knows everything right ' ? This is the atheist argument. ' Why did God do this or that or let this or that happen if he knew ....ect
Are you saying God had nothing to do with the fact that you believed the Gospel?
No wonder most Arminains become calvinists . Your already programmed for Calvinism, as I was before i realised and figured it out . God has done everything , more than enough so that every has no excuse. But does not cause us to believe beyond the giving of His Son , The Holy spirit , The Bible, the Church, the Gospel ect .
[QUOTE="throughfaith, post: 4397161, member: 300037"\the giving of His Son , The Holy spirit , The Bible, the Church, the Gospel ect . [/QUOTE]
Did all these things happen in time?
Did God give or send them all before we believed?
Prevenient simply means coming before. Prevenient grace means grace that comes before faith. That is all.
Did all these things happen in time?
Did God give or send them all before we believed?
Prevenient simply means coming before. Prevenient grace means grace that comes before faith. That is all.
No wonder most Arminains become calvinists . Your already programmed for Calvinism, as I was before i realised and figured it out . God has done everything , more than enough so that every has no excuse. But does not cause us to believe beyond the giving of His Son , The Holy spirit , The Bible, the Church, the Gospel ect . Previenient grace and Irresistible grace are not found in the bible. This is an invention because of the equally faulty T in TULIP
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is [a]for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 6 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
Yes...obviously.....not the point.... ...and what is the point? I believe you see in those words something not seen by others.
God is the subject of the sentence. He is the performer of the verb action.
Chose is the verb. He actively chose us.
Us is the direct object. A direct object is the receiver of the verb or the one that the verb acts upon. God chose us.
In Christ- The only means of salvation.
before the foundation of the world is when the Verb chose took place.
To be holy and without blame before Him in love is the PURPOSE and RESULT of the choice.
You don't agree with this? Which part do you disagree with?
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is [a]for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 6 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is [a]for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 6 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
[QUOTE="throughfaith, post: 4397161, member: 300037"\the giving of His Son , The Holy spirit , The Bible, the Church, the Gospel ect .
Did God give or send them all before we believed?
Prevenient simply means coming before. Prevenient grace means grace that comes before faith. That is all.[/QUOTE]
If that was all what certain traditions and denominations meant by previenient grace ,but they don't. They teach that a ' partial regeneration ' or a to be made free in some sense to be able to believe with the choice also to resist. Some couch this in different terms but essentially the same idea . Because they hold to the T. Like i said before when I posted the flowers clip . Also the other guy does one on ' Jacob Arminius ' .