When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

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Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Sorry, but no. John was called up to heaven and saw A VISION. A vision can be of the past, present or future or all mixed together. We determine the time IN THE VISION by what was SEEN in the vision.

By the way, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. "

Do you see an "only" here as if God is saying He is going to show John ONLY future events?" I have searched diligently and cannot find an ONLY there anywhere - leaving God free to INCLUDE some past tense events - which He did.

"Until out of the midst he becomes" does not fit in Rev. 4:1. It is in 2 Thes. 2 concerning the departing of the church. Rev. 4:1 is concerning only JOHN around 95 AD.

Yes, it is true, after the church has departed, THEN the man of sin will be revealed. But you are mistaken in tying that verse in with John being caught up to heaven. Why not drop such sloppy exegesis and just believe what John is saying: HE was caught up in 95 AD. It has nothing to do with the church being caught up. EVERY posttribber and prewrather KNOWS THIS. Why don't you know it?

Just so you will know, John used "after this" or "after these things" 6 times in Revelation; each time as a transitional phrase to show the the vision God was showing him changes subjects. Case in point? God had dictated messages to the 7 churches, but then the FOCUS of the vision changed: God called John up so WE could have Revelation to read.

Let's stick close to what John actually wrote - shall we?
No man was found worthy.

Jesus is both God and man.

You can not say that John went 30 years back in time and wept.

Or that No man existed until after John finished weeping.

Jesus is both a man, God, a lamb, a lion, and the being John saw on patmos.

The " worthy" part is the kinsman redeemer.

In ruth only Boaz or the one ahead if Him, another relative in line before Boaz, could REDEEM THE PROPERTY. "WORTHY".

Kinsman redeemer.

Not savior of the world.

The seals have nothing to do with salvation

In ruth, the lineage mattered IN REGARDS TO THE PROPERTY.

NOT a security of birthright.
Iow Naomi was still family and Jewess.
RUTH became family at the consummation with Boaz or a seporate document.

You are thinking " worthy due to the cross"

That dynamic is INDIRECT.

Kinsman redeemer being the direct and main component of The God man revealed as the one worthy.

Not that if you remove the neccessary component of your model " that Time went backwards to the crucifixion" , it changes that entire model.

It is as if you ask the body of Christ to walk up to the grand canyon and jump to the other side because God told you personally to do just that.

I can not buy it.
Jesus was there all along.

He became worthy as he became the God man.
But he called himself son of man.

So when did he "become" Boaz ( worthy)?
Was it at your time frame?
Was it in Gods?
The bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

We can think stuff fits and be 100% wrong
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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To open the seals on THIS book required a man who could and did rise from the dead to become our Redeemer. Before He rose from the dead, He was under the earth.

I think you missed the point God was making in hinting that Jesus was "in transit." I think the point was that to be qualified to open the seals one must become the redeemer by death and resurrection as Paul laid out in His gospel. If we follow the story line:
He was not seen at the right hand of the father because it was during the 32 years He was on earth.
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven because Jesus and not ascended to send Him down.
Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search because either He had not yet died or had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer.

Then time passed, Jesus died and rose from the dead, and ascended, then sent the Holy Spirit down. He had fulfilled all that was necessary to redeem mankind.
"""Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search because either He had not yet died or had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer"""

No
You added that.

You are assuming that.

Remove that one component and you have no basis.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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"""5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."""

See that?

Redeemed elders standing there before any search.

So how does time go back when they are there before Jesus resurrection but already redeemed by the blood?

Time did not go back
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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So how does time go back when they are there before Jesus resurrection but already redeemed by the blood?
(y)






[plus... Paul had said he would be awarded a "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY... (and "not to [him] only")... not meaning the day of his death]
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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is no (NONE) scripture to even hint that hiding is why Jesus was not found
Colossians 1:24-26
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

ahem.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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No man was found worthy.

Jesus is both God and man.

You can not say that John went 30 years back in time and wept.

Or that No man existed until after John finished weeping.

Jesus is both a man, God, a lamb, a lion, and the being John saw on patmos.

The " worthy" part is the kinsman redeemer.

In ruth only Boaz or the one ahead if Him, another relative in line before Boaz, could REDEEM THE PROPERTY. "WORTHY".

Kinsman redeemer.

Not savior of the world.

The seals have nothing to do with salvation

In ruth, the lineage mattered IN REGARDS TO THE PROPERTY.

NOT a security of birthright.
Iow Naomi was still family and Jewess.
RUTH became family at the consummation with Boaz or a seporate document.

You are thinking " worthy due to the cross"

That dynamic is INDIRECT.

Kinsman redeemer being the direct and main component of The God man revealed as the one worthy.

Not that if you remove the neccessary component of your model " that Time went backwards to the crucifixion" , it changes that entire model.

It is as if you ask the body of Christ to walk up to the grand canyon and jump to the other side because God told you personally to do just that.

I can not buy it.
Jesus was there all along.

He became worthy as he became the God man.
But he called himself son of man.

So when did he "become" Boaz ( worthy)?
Was it at your time frame?
Was it in Gods?
The bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

We can think stuff fits and be 100% wrong
No man was found worthy. Jesus is both God and man.
And still, the truth is, Jesus was not found at that time. Why?

You can not say that John went 30 years back in time and wept.
Or that No man existed until after John finished weeping.
No, it was 95 AD as John was watching this vision so it was 95 AD when He wept. But this does not answer to the time or timing John was seeing in the vision. We determine that by what John was seeing.

Don't make this more complicated than it is. Without a doubt the writing on the outside of the book told who would be worthy to open it. We go by what is written. After Jesus was found worthy, we read He was found worthy because He had died and had redeemed men to God. The simple reason why He was not found before is because He had not finished what He had to do to redeem men: He had to rise from the dead. This is not rocket science: it is just following the text closely and BELIEVING it.

The truth is NO OTHER MAN could ever become the redeemer. So forget that no one existed! The angel was looking for the one written on the outside of the book: the Redeemer.

Question: WHEN did Jesus complete His work to become the Redeemer of mankind? What all was included?

The " worthy" part is the kinsman redeemer.
In ruth only Boaz or the one ahead if Him, another relative in line before Boaz, could REDEEM THE PROPERTY. "WORTHY".
Kinsman redeemer. Not savior of the world.
So you are saying Jesus DIDN'T redeem men to God from their sins?

"for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood "
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Colossians 1:24-26
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

ahem.
Sigh! Another non sequitur.

Why not just believe what is written instead of searching the bible for some kind of argument?

John GIVES why Jesus was found worthy: "Because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood..."
 

lamad

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"""5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."""

See that?

Redeemed elders standing there before any search.

So how does time go back when they are there before Jesus resurrection but already redeemed by the blood?

Time did not go back
No one really knows WHO the elders are: just another perpetual argument that has gone on for centuries.

The point is, by this time Jesus had risen from the dead and had redeemed ALL MEN back to God.

If we go backwards, what Happened just before Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended?

He had just risen from the dead. And that, my friend, is when He was found worthy and had at that time redeemed ALL MEN. (Unless you believe in "TULIP.")
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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"""Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search because either He had not yet died or had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer"""

No
You added that.

You are assuming that.

Remove that one component and you have no basis.
What happened just before Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down? He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. And what happened with Jesus just before He saw Mary? You know the story. Some unknown time before Jesus rose from the dead. It is HOW He redeemed man to God: Death, burial, and resurrection. It is Paul's gospel in a nutshell. So, no assumptions.

Keep in mind, John is giving us a VERY BRIEF sketch here, not filling in details. Like in Rev. 12 when His whole life flashed by in one verse!

All you have to do is believe the text! John TELLS US why He was found worthy: "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood... " In short, He fulfilled what was needed to become the Redeemer of man.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Sigh! Another non sequitur.

Why not just believe what is written instead of searching the bible for some kind of argument?

John GIVES why Jesus was found worthy: "Because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood..."

why not fear God instead of blaspheme Him?
 

lamad

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why not fear God instead of blaspheme Him?
Your idea of blaspheming and God's are two different things. Why not just believe the message given: a search was made and either Jesus nor any other man met the qualifications AT THAT TIME.

You don't know: Perhaps written on the outside it was the only man who could qualify must raise from the dead by His own power?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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1a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
God is not 'unworthy' like you are supposing to preach He is.
worth implies judgement of worth. if God were unworthy it suggests necessarily that there is a higher standard of measure than God Himself, who judges God and finds God not good enough. therefore to call God unworthy is blasphemy, calling God less-than-God, showing contempt for Him and lack of reverence ((i.e. having not the fear of God, but vanity))


it's really very simple.
the One who is worthy was not found, and then the elder witnessed to John of Him, and He was found.

there is nothing in here teaching you to blaspheme. that comes from somewhere else.
 

lamad

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1a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
God is not 'unworthy' like you are supposing to preach He is.
worth implies judgement of worth. if God were unworthy it suggests necessarily that there is a higher standard of measure than God Himself, who judges God and finds God not good enough. therefore to call God unworthy is blasphemy, calling God less-than-God, showing contempt for Him and lack of reverence ((i.e. having not the fear of God, but vanity))


it's really very simple.
the One who is worthy was not found, and then the elder witnessed to John of Him, and He was found.

there is nothing in here teaching you to blaspheme. that comes from somewhere else.
No one is showing contempt for God or for the SUN.

We are talking about being worthy to take a legal document and open the seals. Do you understand that Father God could not open the seals. No "gods" allowed. ONLY a man who would become the redeemer was qualified - and He proved He was because as soon as He got the book, He opened the first seal.

And John makes it very clear that Jesus was not found in that first search. I have told you why over and over, but you don't want truth. It was when He prevailed over death that He was then found.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Why don't you tell us how much time elapsed while John was weeping?
Tell us why John would have written "no man was found" if the search was ongoing?
You don't get to avoid a question and then ask two questions. That's not a proper way to have a conversation.




This actually tells us what changed between when John wept and Jesus was found. It says "he prevailed." You imagine He prevailed in transit! I say He prevailed over death. It was just before He ascended.
He prevailed to be the one worthy to open the seals because he arrived to do so.



"Showing up" Ah! so you "ad libbed" the showing up, just as I "ad libbed" the second search!
You ad libbed the non-existent second search but he wasn't in heaven then suddenly he was so the showing up is true.[/QUOTE]
 
Jul 31, 2013
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Do you understand that Father God could not open the seals.
Christ is God.

No "gods" allowed.
Christ is God.

ONLY a man who would become the redeemer was qualified
what verse says that?

He proved He was
as i've been saying. He demonstrated Who He is by the resurrection, not 'overcame His unworthiness' by it. see Romans 1:4

as soon as He got the book, He opened the first seal.
nothing in scripture says that.
in fact we have Jesus opening a scroll in another place, and when He does He demonstrates that there may be thousands of years in the middle of a single saying of prophecy.


And John makes it very clear that Jesus was not found in that first search.
John makes it clear that He was not found. that's what i've been telling you.
you've been saying He was found but wasn't worthy. that He was passed over as sub-par.

I have told you why over and over,
no, i have told you over and over.
you have told us over and over that Christ was worthless until He rose.

It was when He prevailed over death that He was then found.
He was worshipped as an infant.
why did they worship what you call a worthless, sub-par, not-good-enough man?
 

lamad

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You don't get to avoid a question and then ask two questions. That's not a proper way to have a conversation.

He prevailed to be the one worthy to open the seals because he arrived to do so.

You ad libbed the non-existent second search but he wasn't in heaven then suddenly he was so the showing up is true.
OK, I'll answer and expect YOU to answer.

(by the way, Jesus answered a question with a question. It is OK to do that.)
There is no verse that specify's a second search. But there is also no verse that prevents a second search.
Since the search John watched ended in failure, a second search is logical.

Read Jesus' question to me again:

John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Jesus is confirming what I have said all along: that first search ended. It is the very reason John wept much. Why don't YOU try and answer HIS question?

He prevailed to be the one worthy to open the seals because he arrived to do so.
Just more human imagination, ignoring the text. John TELLS US: The answer is NOT "arriving." Keep the same sequence from the text.

And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

WHY was He found worthy? Because He "arrived?" Nonsense! It is because He was nailed to a cross and murdered there, and shed His blood for the sins of the world. This is telling us that ONLY the REDEEMER was qualified to open the seals.

"He arrived" in the throne room later, AFTER He was found worthy: just as the gospel's show us: death, burial, resurrection, ascension. Why would anyone not believe this order of events?

Stick with John's order of events: The prevailing (I submit over death) came first, just as the gospel's show it. THEN, after He rose from the dead, He ascended and "showed up" in heaven. WE get this same order of events in every gospel!
 

lamad

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Christ is God.

Christ is God.

what verse says that?

as i've been saying. He demonstrated Who He is by the resurrection, not 'overcame His unworthiness' by it. see Romans 1:4

nothing in scripture says that.
in fact we have Jesus opening a scroll in another place, and when He does He demonstrates that there may be thousands of years in the middle of a single saying of prophecy.

John makes it clear that He was not found. that's what i've been telling you.
you've been saying He was found but wasn't worthy. that He was passed over as sub-par.

no, i have told you over and over.
you have told us over and over that Christ was worthless until He rose.

He was worshipped as an infant.
why did they worship what you call a worthless, sub-par, not-good-enough man?
"man" comes from the Greek oudeis
The KJV translates Strong's G3762 in the following manner: no man (94x), nothing (68x), none (27x), no (24x), any man (3x), any (3x), man (2x), neither any man (2x), miscellaneous (13x).

The book is in the Father's hand. When the angels shouted:

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.


Why didn't GOD answer? He's got the book! The reason is, because it is written on the outside of the book who is qualified and God the Father was not qualified. It had to be the Redeemer. That was the man, Jesus Christ. He did not die as GOD, He died as a MAN. Don't guess on scripture when it TELLS US!

9 You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

See how easy this is, He became worthy to open the seals when he became The redeemer.
He was worthy at that time because He was slaughtered and redeemed people. However, we know from other scriptures that redemption was not complete UNTIL He rose from the dead.

Question, was Jesus worthy to open the seals before He became worthy by dying and raising from the Dead? No.

There are several things Christ BECAME:

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: Though He was rich, for your sake He became poor, so that by His poverty you might become rich.


Was Christ poor before He BECAME poor? NO!

Hebrews 5:9
After He was perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him,


was Christ the source of eternal salvation BEFORE he became perfected?

Hebrews 7:21
but He became a priest with an oath made by the One who said to Him: The Lord has sworn, and He will not change His mind, You are a priest forever.


Was Christ a priest before the oath declaring he was?

2 Cor. 5:21
He orchestrated this: the Anointed One, who had never experienced sin, became sin for us so that in Him we might embody the very righteousness of God.

Was Jesus "sin" before He became sin for us? NO!

Why then can you just not believe what John tells us?

9 You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Before He was slaughtered, He was NOT the redeemer. He BECAME the Redeemer by dying and then raising from the dead. Therefore, He was not qualified to open the seals UNTIL He had accomplished everything required to become the redeemer: Death, burial, resurrection, according to Paul's gospel.

Christ is God.
Who ever said He wasn't. But he did not redeem the world to himself AS GOD. He did it as MAN.
What verse says that "ONLY a man who would become the redeemer was qualified "

We can see that God the Father was not qualified to open the seals, because He had been hold the book and said NOTHING when the Angel was searching. So if God was not qualified, what, a goat? A Ram? A Red Heifer? Don't be silly! If God was not qualified, then it must be A MAN, just as John wrote. And indeed, it WAS a man who became qualified after being slaughtered and rising from the dead.

See Roman's 1:4 Another non-sequitur.

nothing in scripture says that. (As soon as He got the book, he opened the first seal.)
Yes, it does say this, just not in those words. There is only worship between Him getting the book and opening the first seal. (Feel free to insert 2000 years as most do, and be wrong.)

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.


Show us in any verse or between any verse where 2000 years have taken place or any length of time.

John makes it clear that He was not found. that's what i've been telling you.
you've been saying He was found but wasn't worthy. that He was passed over as sub-par.


No, I have never said that. In the first search NO ONE was found. You are still wanting to argue over scripture, instead of believe it.

And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Why was He found worthy? Because He was GOD? NO! Because he became the redeemer by His death and resurrection. Why was He not found in the first search? It is very simple: He was NOT YET the redeemer. He had to die, be buried, then rise from the dead to become the Redeemer. The reason He was not found in the first search was TIME: He had not yet finished His work as redeemer, so according to what was written on the outside of the book, he was not yet qualified to open the seals.

you have told us over and over that Christ was worthless until He rose. No, I have never said such a thing. Perhaps you imagined it because you still don't understand: Jesus was not found in that first search because the angel was looking for THE REDEEMER. You want Him to be the redeemer before HE was slaughtered. That is not scriptural. Your theory is not scriptural.

He was worshipped as an infant.
why did they worship what you call a worthless, sub-par, not-good-enough man?
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China" Have have given distractor after distractor, all non sequitars because you just won't believe John that He was not found because He had not yet completed His task of becoming the redeemer. How many people were saved from their sins by His blood while He was still a baby? NONE! Friend, He had to first SHED HIS BLOOD. He was GOD before He shed His blood and He was GOD after He shed His blood that this does not answer WHY He was not found in that first search. By the way, I have never, ever, said these things.

Read it again and this time BELIEVE IT!

And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Blasphemy.

God is never not worthy of all praise.
There you go again, ANOTHER non sequitur! We are not talking about worthy of praise! In fact, He WAS praised because He became qualified to open the seals. (As a baby He would not have been qualified to open the seals. As the man hanging on the cross, still alive He would not have been qualified as the redeemer to open the seals. ) He had to DIE first, and after that rise from the dead. THEN He was the redeemer. You want to make Him the Redeemer as a baby! Maybe you need to see this again:

1 Cor. 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


This is the gospel: it is what Jesus had to do to redeem mankind.
Was there a time BEFORE He rose from the dead? Yes, when He was NOT found qualified to open the seals.
Was there a time BEFORE He was slaughtered on the cross? You know there was.

You want Him to be the redeemer before He did what was necessary to BECOME the redeemer: He had to die, then raise from the dead. As Paul said, a testament is NOT IN FORCE until the testator DIES. Jesus died and seals the NEW TESTAMENT with His blood.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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There you go again, ANOTHER non sequitur! We are not talking about worthy of praise!
We certainly are.
Look again at Revelation 5:11-13

Dude until you fear God and reject any interpretation that diminishes Him, calling Him unworthy or powerless or ignorant, you are never going to understand anything you are reading in scripture.

You need to fix that before we can discuss anything else on this topic.