When does the rapture occur?

[SilverFanng]

The "ten lost tribes" are found in
Ezra 6:17; Ac 26:7; Jas 1:1;
Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes);
Eze 37:15-22 (where Ephraim is the also the northern kingdom of the ten tribes --Isa 7:17).

The remnant that returned from exile was from all the tribes.

Actually that isn't true. The bible never says that. At least I never found it. Only those of the kingdom of Judah returned. God said they would outnumber the stars in the sky. Did he not mean that? And he was literally speaking of all of Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob. When Christ told his disciples to go out he never told them to go to the gentiles. Only Paul was told that. They were to go to their brothers who were scattered among the nation's of the world. Knowing this Peter went to Britannia. TWICE. That's a long way from Israel especially back then on foot. Also there is the historian josiphas who said that the Israelites of the northern kingdom were, even in his lifetime, "beyond the Euphrates til now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated in numbers."

Also the Israelites name in history was changed by their neighbors and even the Israelites for got who they were. They were called scythians and cimmerians by the Assyrians and their neighbors. Follow the trail of history man. It's still there, laid out by God for the devoted to seek out and find. A puzzle to test us. I know it sounds strange but some the mummies they found in scythian burial mounds are tall with blond hair and blue eyes. Even the artwork depicts this. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just telling you what I found. Maybe I am wrong, but before you try running me over with criticism how about first you ask God for guidance and look at all the evidence, both for and against, then formulate an opinion based on an honest consideration of everything presented. It took me 2 years before I actually came to accept what I found. I don't expect anyone to come to terms with it in a day.

 

[SilverFanng]

Address the word and the op. get off the personal level.

This is not a teenage chat room

That's actually very ironic for you to be telling me this after insulting the beliefs of those who just come here for a peaceful discussion/debate.

 

[SilverFanng]

Now then, let's move forward. God has been telling me that I am focusing to intently on the end to pay attention to what he is going to do before then. He has told me he is preparing something big. I don't know what, but it will wake everyone up for we are all in a waking sleep, oblivious to what is really happening around us. I'm not talking about seeing little things here and there and saying "God is there". I am talking about indisputably god moving in justice and judgment.

I am plagued, tortured with images of what will be that I don't understand. Discount me if you will but I need to get this off my chest and I have no one to tell in my life who will listen so at least I will sleep tonight by posting this here. Maybe I'm crazy and I apologize if I am wrong. I'm just lost, trying to find my way in a world that has spat me out.

 

[flob]

PlainWord, GaryA, and VCO (#2516-2518), how interesting, the variety of things people have been taught, or concluded in their studies of the word, Revelation. Some of these points are 'trivial,' Mt 23:23, some are larger, I'll see if any are essential 'elements of the faith,' Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:4. Arguing can be so unbecoming, though i'm not adverse to trying to prove a view. I enjoy the study of every detail of the word, though, like I say, it's important to represent Christ and not hurt others. I only want to comment on the posts mentioned, for the sake of..........fun, for the sake of study and learning, and for the sake of trying to see if there is an underlying 'point,' or cause folks prefer the views they have (other than maybe the bald statement that a certain view is most logical).

Again, I mean no offense, nor fighting, nor disrespect. PlainWord in #2516 feels there are none raptured in heaven save Enoch and Elijah. I'm persuaded that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses (and of course Jesus) have been caught up there. Moses,
like Jesus, resurrected (though unlike Him, not transfigured), based on Mt 17:3; Deut 34:6; Jude 9; and Rv 11:3-12.
I understand that Moses and Elijah will be killed by the Beast, Rv 11:7, precisely because they are God's witnesses unto death. As His leading witnesses during the 3 1/2 years, when many other believers are also being martyred, they too will be faithful unto death. I think it's fair to say that both left something 'undone.' Elijah, previously so bold, had 'chickened out' from Jezebel. Moses, though knowing God so well, had misrepresented God in the matter of re-striking the rock, and wasn't allowed to enter the good land then (although did He in Mt 17?). The point being similar to Heb 11:39-40; Mt 11:11; that although they were consummate heroes in the OT, representing the Law and the Prophets, they need the New Testament to be perfected, and God planned to use them as His witnesses, in Israel, to their/His own racial people, primarily, in the OT-like 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation when the age of grace, so to speak, has ended (except for Israel, Zech 12--14; Rm 9--11 (interestingly quoting Moses and Elijah)). I understand that the force of Heb 9:27 is Christ's once-for-all redemptive death, as well as the implicit warning (though Hebrews is written to saints) that people have only one lifetime to take this sacrifice.
Meaning that Moses' 'first resurrection,' in my view, is like that of Lazarus in the New Testament (as well as of several saints, Mt 27:52-53). A 'natural,' nontransfiguring resurrection.

G.A. in #2517 feels that at the time of and in Rev 7, those 144,000 are born-again Christians and the only servants of God still alive on the earth. I respectfully disagree because I understand they are racial Hebrews, sealed not in their spirit, with the Spirit, but rather with upon their foreheads, and literally from the tribes mentioned. Which--whether miraculous or not that God identifies those members of those tribes---I believe He does. With a view to their being born anew at the end; Zech 12--14. I understand that they are not the 144,000 of Rev 14, who are overcoming living believers, raptured at the start of the last 3 1/2 years----indeed, as the transfigured sons God has sought---constituting the central reason that the end, the last 3 1/2 years, begins.

I substantially agree with what VCO says (#2518) except that I understand the elders in Rev 4 and 7 to be angelic 'elders,' in God's angelic administration of the universe and worship. I find that, unlike the saints' white robes, these elders' white robes are similar to those of Mt 28:3; etc.

I also disagree with the NASB in Eph 4:24, which I feel mistranslates 'man' into 'self.' But since that isn't Revelation, I'll save that for some other time. I find that saints, whether deceased or alive, who have the white robes mentioned in Rv 3, will both be resurrected and/or raptured, per 3:10, before the Great Tribulation; will thus 'trigger' the events of the Great Trib (beginning with the casting of Satan out of the heavens, 12:7-9); and will also inherit, with other, later, overcoming Christians, the 1000 year Millenial reign with their Lord as a reward, 2:26-27; 12:5; 20:4, 6.

 

[VCO]

PlainWord, GaryA, and VCO (#2516-2518), how interesting, the variety of things people have been taught, or concluded in their studies of the word, Revelation. Some of these points are 'trivial,' Mt 23:23, some are larger, I'll see if any are essential 'elements of the faith,' Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:4. Arguing can be so unbecoming, though i'm not adverse to trying to prove a view. I enjoy the study of every detail of the word, though, like I say, it's important to represent Christ and not hurt others. I only want to comment on the posts mentioned, for the sake of..........fun, for the sake of study and learning, and for the sake of trying to see if there is an underlying 'point,' or cause folks prefer the views they have (other than maybe the bald statement that a certain view is most logical).

Again, I mean no offense, nor fighting, nor disrespect. PlainWord in #2516 feels there are none raptured in heaven save Enoch and Elijah. I'm persuaded that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses (and of course Jesus) have been caught up there. Moses,
like Jesus, resurrected (though unlike Him, not transfigured), based on Mt 17:3; Deut 34:6; Jude 9; and Rv 11:3-12.
I understand that Moses and Elijah will be killed by the Beast, Rv 11:7, precisely because they are God's witnesses unto death. As His leading witnesses during the 3 1/2 years, when many other believers are also being martyred, they too will be faithful unto death. I think it's fair to say that both left something 'undone.' Elijah, previously so bold, had 'chickened out' from Jezebel. Moses, though knowing God so well, had misrepresented God in the matter of re-striking the rock, and wasn't allowed to enter the good land then (although did He in Mt 17?). The point being similar to Heb 11:39-40; Mt 11:11; that although they were consummate heroes in the OT, representing the Law and the Prophets, they need the New Testament to be perfected, and God planned to use them as His witnesses, in Israel, to their/His own racial people, primarily, in the OT-like 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation when the age of grace, so to speak, has ended (except for Israel, Zech 12--14; Rm 9--11 (interestingly quoting Moses and Elijah)). I understand that the force of Heb 9:27 is Christ's once-for-all redemptive death, as well as the implicit warning (though Hebrews is written to saints) that people have only one lifetime to take this sacrifice.
Meaning that Moses' 'first resurrection,' in my view, is like that of Lazarus in the New Testament (as well as of several saints, Mt 27:52-53). A 'natural,' nontransfiguring resurrection.

G.A. in #2517 feels that at the time of and in Rev 7, those 144,000 are born-again Christians and the only servants of God still alive on the earth. I respectfully disagree because I understand they are racial Hebrews, sealed not in their spirit, with the Spirit, but rather with upon their foreheads, and literally from the tribes mentioned. Which--whether miraculous or not that God identifies those members of those tribes---I believe He does. With a view to their being born anew at the end; Zech 12--14. I understand that they are not the 144,000 of Rev 14, who are overcoming living believers, raptured at the start of the last 3 1/2 years----indeed, as the transfigured sons God has sought---constituting the central reason that the end, the last 3 1/2 years, begins.

I substantially agree with what VCO says (#2518) except that I understand the elders in Rev 4 and 7 to be angelic 'elders,' in God's angelic administration of the universe and worship. I find that, unlike the saints' white robes, these elders' white robes are similar to those of Mt 28:3; etc.

I also disagree with the NASB in Eph 4:24, which I feel mistranslates 'man' into 'self.' But since that isn't Revelation, I'll save that for some other time. I find that saints, whether deceased or alive, who have the white robes mentioned in Rv 3, will both be resurrected and/or raptured, per 3:10, before the Great Tribulation; will thus 'trigger' the events of the Great Trib (beginning with the casting of Satan out of the heavens, 12:7-9); and will also inherit, with other, later, overcoming Christians, the 1000 year Millenial reign with their Lord as a reward, 2:26-27; 12:5; 20:4, 6.

For the most part I agree with you, but where did you get Angelic Elders? That is an interpretation that I have never heard before.

4:4 twenty-four elders. Their joint rule with Christ, their white garments (19:7, 8), and their golden crowns (2:10) all seem to indicate that these twenty-four represent the redeemed (vv. 9-11; 5:5-14; 7:11-17; 11:16-18; 14:3; 19:4). The question is which redeemed? Not Israel, since the nation is not yet saved, glorified, and coronated. That is still to come at this point in the events of the end. Their resurrection and glory will come at the end of the seven-year Tribulation time (cf. Dan. 12:1-3). Tribulation saints aren’t yet saved (7:9, 10). Only one group will be complete and glorified at this point—the church. Here, elders represent the church, which sings the song of redemption (5:8-10). They are the overcomers who have their crowns and live in the place prepared for them, where they have gone with Jesus (cf. John 14:1-4).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

Seriously, elders were representatives. We know that Israel had elders and that elders were appointed in the early churches to rule and to represent the entire church (see Titus 1:5). Their role was clearly understood by the people in John's day. These twenty-four elders stand for the total church from Pentecost to the Rapture. Therefore, I can say categorically and dogmatically that here is the church in heaven."White raiment" is the righteousness of Christ (see 2Cor. 5:21).

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[GaryA]

G.A. in #2517 feels that at the time of and in Rev 7, those 144,000 are born-again Christians and the only servants of God still alive on the earth. I respectfully disagree because I understand they are racial Hebrews, sealed not in their spirit, with the Spirit, but rather with upon their foreheads, and literally from the tribes mentioned. Which--whether miraculous or not that God identifies those members of those tribes---I believe He does. With a view to their being born anew at the end; Zech 12--14. I understand that they are not the 144,000 of Rev 14, who are overcoming living believers, raptured at the start of the last 3 1/2 years----indeed, as the transfigured sons God has sought---constituting the central reason that the end, the last 3 1/2 years, begins.

So - any born-again Christians - other than the 144,000 - who are alive at that time - are not "servants of our God" ( Revelation 7:3 ) ???

Does not "servants of our God" include all who are God's - excluding all of the wicked - they being all that are left after the "servants of our God" are counted?

Does Revelation 9:4 not say very plainly that the scorpion-tail creatures are commanded to hurt all who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads?

Will there be born-again Christians experiencing the "stings" of the scorpion-tail creatures ( Revelation 9:10 ) ???

 

[PlainWord]

VCO, I don't need to listen to MacArthur. I know his arguments and know them to be wrong. Instead, please listen to the audio from Dr. GK Beale on the two witnesses. Beale destroys MacArthur:

http://media.thirdmill.org/mp3-16/gk_beale.Rev.03b.mp3

I summarize it below for those who don't have time to hear a 55 minute audio.

Basically, the whole of chapter 11 is the story of the Church and how the body of Christ is figuratively the Temple.

"measure the temple" = count all in the Body of Christ.
"Leave out the court" = we are not discussing unbelievers or fake Christians who are not in the Body of Christ.

Use John's own words to solve the puzzle about the Temple. It is not a third physical temple:

John 2:19

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

All NT teachings of a future temple are either that in heaven or the Body of Christ, the Church. There is no definitive teaching of a third temple being built on earth. Christ builds a spiritual temple. He isn't interested in brick and mortar buildings any more. All Christians know this.

The Church is obviously a witness to the world. The end comes when?

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Thus the end of the church age is shown figuratively when the Beast (Satan) overcomes it prior to the return of Christ. The End is tied to the Gospel being preached to ALL NATIONS.

*The two witnesses are the true church (2-3 witnesses needed to convict) 2 of 7 churches were faithful.

*The false witnesses are faith of everyone else (false witnesses were used to convict Christ and put Him to death)


*The two witnesses are killed for their testimony (so was Christ)
*False witnesses celebrate death of 2 witnesses (so did those who killed Christ)

The two witnesses symbolize the Great Commission given here which agrees with how John describes them in Rev 11. Compare the two concepts, first for the Church, then for the 2 witnesses:

Acts 1:8

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Revelation 11:3

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Churches John was writing to were very familiar with this concept. Remember the audience of Revelation. This is HUGELY important!! We see the two words, "power" and "witness" associated with both concepts - Church and 2 Witnesses. Thus, until the Time of False Religions (Time of Gentiles) is complete, the two witnesses will counter the false narrative with the truth.

*Time of Gentiles given as 42 months (months are used for evil, Moon = Lunar = Luna = Lunatic = Satan)

*2 witnesses same period of time but expressed in 1260 days (days are good, day = sun = light)

Thus, it isn't the length of time that is important, it is how the time is expressed telling us one group is evil, the other good. Neither period of time are literal or definitive (I'm open to time being literal, I just don't see the connection to anything in history yet as the Church age has exceed 1,260 days and years). However, the 3.5 years represents the length of Christ's ministry on earth and the Church is shown as a mirror or continuation of this ministry.

Defeating enemies with fire is symbolic of Elijah. Remember Mat 17 when many thought Christ was Elijah because of the miracles He was able to do?

Thus, the plagues of Elijah are compared to the Power given unto the Church:

Luke 4:25

But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land.

James 5:17

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

We have the same time period!!! James is comparing Elijah's powers to the powers they were given. This point is pretty compelling!!

Thus the Church has the Power to Convict People of their sins and to inform the world they are sinning. This power will be overcome by two evil forces, Sodom and Egypt, which equates to Homosexuality and Idol Worship. For the First time in 2000 years of Church History Gay Rights is wining over the Church in public opinion. Stop and think about how BIG this is as it is a prophesy we are watching become fulfilled in our lifetimes. The world has not seen Gay Rights as mainstream acceptable behavior since the Church age began or maybe even as far back as Sodom, until now. The lesson of Sodom has been lost. Think about the gravity of this happening just in the past 20 years.

Islam is being forced down the throats of us in this country (and abroad). Islam being the Mother of all false religions. Churches all over Europe are being replaced by Mosques. We see it in this country too but it is happening all over the UK and Europe in droves. Thus the Worldwide Church will be overcome by these two evil forces (SODOM and EGYPT).

"Bodies not put in graves" is a major insult of Jewish (and most) customs. Thus the world will celebrate when the Church loses its power to make people living in sin feel guilty. They will rub our noses in it and force us to "eat it." The Church is Global, it is in every country. Thus when the Church loses the Spiritual battle to convict, the entire worlds sees it, and they won't let us forget it and more importantly, they will rejoice. Who wants to be told they are living in sin???

At the end, when the Church has been overcome, the world will become spiritually dark (Joel 2) before the Great and Awesome Day of the Lord. Besides losing the spiritual battle, I think the GM in Heaven proves the Church as a whole is literally killed too. (could this be the force which restrains?) How is the church selectively killed? Killing 2.3 Billion people selectively seems an impossible task but nonetheless I think it happens, except for a remnant. We are told the BEAST kills the Church. Thus, ISLAM kills the church. How??? I don't know.

We then have the resurrection associated with the Return of the Lord, when the "brightness or truth" will destroy evil (Rev 19). So John is painting a picture of the Church Age from start to finish in Rev 11 just as he does with Israel in Rev 12.

Notice John never refers to the witnesses as men or people? Does this make sense more than two literal fire breathing men being killed by a beast which crawls up from a pit? If half of the story (BEAST) is imagery, then all of it is.

 

[PlainWord]

VCO,

After WHAT? After 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel were sealed in the forehead of their mortal bodies.

Some see the 144K as symbolic of the Abrahamic Covenant. Abraham was to be a father of a nation more numerable than the stars in heaven or sand of the sea (something like that). 12 represents completeness. 1000 represents a very large number. 12 x 12 x 1000. They aren't the same 12 tribes. The tribes who ran off into idolatry were omitted and replaced. The GM then shows that those in heaven were from every tribe, nation, tongue, etc.

Personally, I think the 144K are the remnant who are still alive when Christ returns. They are descendants of Jacob but from every nation. Nobody can say for sure.

{Here we find the Elders of the Church already in heaven in white robes.}

The Elders are not said to be Church elders. John was a Church elder so was he looking at himself? If so, he doesn't recognize himself. Unlikely that they are church elders IMO.

Does the Church have to wait until Heaven before the walk in White Robes with HIM?

In each case they were given robes when they were in heaven. In each case souls are seen thus, they were dead. I find it interesting that you only want to spiritualize when it suits you.

{So the beheadings of the Tribulation Saints begins.}

All Saints. The concept of a "tribulation saint" is not taught or found anywhere. There is no distinguishing between saints found anywhere. Paul includes himself as does John, as saints suffering tribulation awaiting for Christ to return.

Putting on the new self is when we start walking in white robes, that born again experience when the Holy Spirit brings our once dead human spirit to eternal life in Christ.

Yes, I agree.

 

[PlainWord]

Flob,

Again, I mean no offense, nor fighting, nor disrespect. PlainWord in #2516 feels there are none raptured in heaven save Enoch and Elijah. I'm persuaded that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses (and of course Jesus) have been caught up there. Moses,

Both Jesus and Moses physically died. Jesus ascended to heaven after being resurrected. I do not consider this a rapturing or "catching up." Moses is not returning in the flesh to die a second physical death. We know Moses died the first time as Michael was contending with Satan (Jude 1:9) for the body of Moses.

The two witnesses are not men, see my post #2527.

I find that saints, whether deceased or alive, who have the white robes mentioned in Rv 3, will both be resurrected and/or raptured, per 3:10, before the Great Tribulation; will thus 'trigger' the events of the Great Trib (beginning with the casting of Satan out of the heavens, 12:7-9); and will also inherit, with other, later, overcoming Christians, the 1000 year Millenial reign with their Lord as a reward, 2:26-27; 12:5; 20:4, 6.

Rev 3:10 does not discuss a rapture. If I keep you from jumping in front of a train, do I simply restrain you or do I have to fly you away to heaven? Do you know what the "HOUR OF TRIAL" is?" Hint: It isn't the Great Tribulation. How will the world be tested? What choice will the world be given? The answer is given in Mat 24.

The GT is not triggered by the Rapture. Show me a verse that supports that!! We are told what triggers the GT. It's when we see the Abomination of Desolation. That's the trigger. It's a bad event that triggers a bad event, not a good event triggering a bad event.

There is no return of Christ EVER taught to occur BEFORE the Great Trib. That is an indisputable fact. I've asked every Pre-Tribber I've ever met to show me one verse that locates any return of Christ (including cloud only returns) before the start of the GT. None can.

Just a general comment, not aimed at you. Some are given ears to hear and eyes to see, some are not. This theme is repeated often in Revelation, especially to the churches, and other places.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Clearly, not all in the Church have ears to hear. A pre-Trib Rapture does not require "watching." It's taught as an involuntary event with no prerequisites. But that isn't the message to the churches...

Rev 3:3:

...Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The message is one has to "watch" thus know the signs, in order not to be surprised. Christ was asked to give signs which precede His Coming. He gives no signs of His Coming that are before the GT, the signs He give are all AFTER the GT.

QUESTION:

Mat 24:

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

ANSWER:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...

Now why would no signs for a Pre-Trib timing be given and only post-signs be given?

 

[Elin]

The "ten lost tribes" are found in
Ezra 6:17; Ac 26:7; Jas 1:1;
Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes);
Eze 37:15-22 (where Ephraim is the also the northern kingdom of the ten tribes--shown in Isa 7:17).

The remnant that returned from exile was from all the tribes.

Actually that isn't true. The bible never says that.

What isn't true. . .the Scriptures above. . .Jas 1:1; Isa 7:17. . .what?

Follow the trail of history man.

I prefer the word of God written. . .above.

 

[Elin]

VCO, I don't need to listen to MacArthur. I know his arguments and know them to be wrong. Instead, please listen to the audio from Dr. GK Beale on the two witnesses. Beale destroys MacArthur:

http://media.thirdmill.org/mp3-16/gk_beale.Rev.03b.mp3

I summarize it below for those who don't have time to hear a 55 minute audio.

Basically, the whole of chapter 11 is the story of the Church and how the body of Christ is figuratively the Temple.

"measure the temple" = count all in the Body of Christ.
"Leave out the court" = we are not discussing unbelievers or fake Christians who are not in the Body of Christ.

Use John's own words to solve the puzzle about the Temple. It is not a third physical temple:

John 2:19

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

All NT teachings of a future temple are either that in heaven or the Body of Christ, the Church. There is no definitive teaching of a third temple being built on earth. Christ builds a spiritual temple. He isn't interested in brick and mortar buildings any more. All Christians know this.

The Church is obviously a witness to the world. The end comes when?

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Thus the end of the church age is shown figuratively when the Beast (Satan) overcomes it prior to the return of Christ. The End is tied to the Gospel being preached to ALL NATIONS.

*The two witnesses are the true church (2-3 witnesses needed to convict) 2 of 7 churches were faithful.

*The false witnesses are faith of everyone else (false witnesses were used to convict Christ and put Him to death)


*The two witnesses are killed for their testimony (so was Christ)
*False witnesses celebrate death of 2 witnesses (so did those who killed Christ)

The two witnesses symbolize the Great Commission given here which agrees with how John describes them in Rev 11. Compare the two concepts, first for the Church, then for the 2 witnesses:

Acts 1:8

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Revelation 11:3

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Churches John was writing to were very familiar with this concept. Remember the audience of Revelation. This is HUGELY important!! We see the two words, "power" and "witness" associated with both concepts - Church and 2 Witnesses. Thus, until the Time of False Religions (Time of Gentiles) is complete, the two witnesses will counter the false narrative with the truth.

*Time of Gentiles given as 42 months (months are used for evil, Moon = Lunar = Luna = Lunatic = Satan)

*2 witnesses same period of time but expressed in 1260 days (days are good, day = sun = light)

Thus, it isn't the length of time that is important, it is how the time is expressed telling us one group is evil, the other good. Neither period of time are literal or definitive (I'm open to time being literal, I just don't see the connection to anything in history yet as the Church age has exceed 1,260 days and years). However, the 3.5 years represents the length of Christ's ministry on earth and the Church is shown as a mirror or continuation of this ministry.

Defeating enemies with fire is symbolic of Elijah. Remember Mat 17 when many thought Christ was Elijah because of the miracles He was able to do?

Thus, the plagues of Elijah are compared to the Power given unto the Church:

Luke 4:25

But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land.

James 5:17

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

We have the same time period!!! James is comparing Elijah's powers to the powers they were given. This point is pretty compelling!!

Thus the Church has the Power to Convict People of their sins and to inform the world they are sinning. This power will be overcome by two evil forces, Sodom and Egypt, which equates to Homosexuality and Idol Worship. For the First time in 2000 years of Church History Gay Rights is wining over the Church in public opinion. Stop and think about how BIG this is as it is a prophesy we are watching become fulfilled in our lifetimes. The world has not seen Gay Rights as mainstream acceptable behavior since the Church age began or maybe even as far back as Sodom, until now. The lesson of Sodom has been lost. Think about the gravity of this happening just in the past 20 years.

Islam is being forced down the throats of us in this country (and abroad). Islam being the Mother of all false religions. Churches all over Europe are being replaced by Mosques. We see it in this country too but it is happening all over the UK and Europe in droves. Thus the Worldwide Church will be overcome by these two evil forces (SODOM and EGYPT).

"Bodies not put in graves" is a major insult of Jewish (and most) customs. Thus the world will celebrate when the Church loses its power to make people living in sin feel guilty. They will rub our noses in it and force us to "eat it." The Church is Global, it is in every country. Thus when the Church loses the Spiritual battle to convict, the entire worlds sees it, and they won't let us forget it and more importantly, they will rejoice. Who wants to be told they are living in sin???

At the end, when the Church has been overcome, the world will become spiritually dark (Joel 2) before the Great and Awesome Day of the Lord. Besides losing the spiritual battle, I think the GM in Heaven proves the Church as a whole is literally killed too. (could this be the force which restrains?) How is the church selectively killed? Killing 2.3 Billion people selectively seems an impossible task but nonetheless I think it happens, except for a remnant. We are told the BEAST kills the Church. Thus, ISLAM kills the church. How??? I don't know.

We then have the resurrection associated with the Return of the Lord, when the "brightness or truth" will destroy evil (Rev 19). So John is painting a picture of the Church Age from start to finish in Rev 11 just as he does with Israel in Rev 12.

Notice John never refers to the witnesses as men or people? Does this make sense more than two literal fire breathing men being killed by a beast which crawls up from a pit? If half of the story (BEAST) is imagery, then all of it is.

A lot of what you say fits. . .

 

[PlainWord]

A lot of what you say fits. . .

Thanks. That means a lot coming from someone as in tune with the spiritual as I've encountered on here.

To everyone: One last point on the symbolic nature of the two witnesses. Compare this phrase:

Rev 11: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

"Fire proceeds from their mouth" This phrase is symbolic. Notice also that "mouth" is not plural as you would expect if there were two people with fire coming out of their mouths. Thus the two witnesses are ONE.

Compare to this passage:

Rev 19: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

Most of us see the above clearly as symbolic as Jesus spoken word (the Truth) is how He strikes the nations. He isn't going to go around with a sword tongue darting in and out of His mouth killing people. Thus John is using symbolic literature in both passages further proving the point that the witnesses are not two men.

 

[flob]

#2525 "where did you get Angelic Elders? That is an interpretation that I have never heard before."
--see? How interesting the different readings. Thanks. There are a lot more than 24 elders in the churches over their 2000-year existence. There are apostles, but I believe there are a lot more than 24, and in any case, they are not 'elders' (also = 'overseers,' as that office is mentioned in the churches). Lastly, there is no such universal or permanent office of 'elders' for the believers who die or are taken up. That is both contrary to the nature of the universal church as an organic Body, and utterly unnecessary. Vernon McGee feels they 'stand for the total church.' I'd have to ask him: Why? Why not just say the 'church' there? The churches are already mentioned repeatedly in chapters 2--3. There's no need to jump, in chapters 4--7,
to an ambiguous or odd symbol of the church. John (and the Source) do not employ symbols in Revelation just for the sake of poetry, or for employing symbols. John MacArthur at least has the decorum to use his word 'seem' instead of the unsensible 'categorically and dogmatically'! (Who would want to make a 'dogma' out of this minor question anyway? lol. Maybe brother McGee is old fashioned to me and I just don't understand his mentality.) Zero offense intended, but I would never recommend John MacArthur's commentary. I would unrecommend it. No offense. Not because of this mere small disagreement---he seems to interpret that the Great Tribulation has begun with chapter 4. I also know a brother where I live who takes the call to John in 4:1 to 'come up here' as representative of the first (and pre-trib) rapture of the overcomers! But to me that is silly and unnecessary to symbolize events in such a way. When Revelation talks about rapture, it does so directly (3:10; 12--14; 11:12). Just like our Lord does in the Gospels. Just like the 7 churches are both in the time of John, and also begin (as prophecies) from his time, so I understand that Revelation's other events, starting with chapter 1 and then 4, begin from our Lord's ascension. He is the Lion-Lamb found worthy in chapter 5. To my interpretation, chapters 4--6:8 are all the beginning of this New Testament age. The age of grace. Long before any rapture of the church. After all, with the 5th seal (6:9-11), the deceased overcomers, the martyrs down through church history for example, are still 'under the altar.' Unresurrected. Unraptured. When they make their prayer. They are still in (the nice part of) Hades. This is the time before the church replaces angels (1 Cor 6:3) as 'kings of the universe.' So the 24 elders, like the other creatures in Rev 4---5, are angelic. Wow, sorry, this is turning into much writing. What I object to more from brother MacArthur is his (common, traditional) complete misinterpretation of John 14:1-4 into a kind of silly, physical construction job in the heavens/space, lol. As well: Dan 12:1-3 says nothing about 7 years tribulation. That one irks me : ) because constantly in Rev the 3 1/2 years is delineated. Yet (most of?) Christianity persists in their '7-year' label of the tribulation. Merely, I think, because 7 years at the end of this age are Daniel's 70th 7.


To GA in #2526: I must have misunderstood you. I thought #2517 was saying the 144,000 are the ONLY servants of God still alive on the earth in Rev 7. Yes, in God's control and sovereignty, all things, even His enemy Satan, is His (ugly) 'tool' to bring about His own purpose. For example: not that we should be fleshly, but our fallen flesh 'serves' to drive us to our spirit. To the Lord. The only One who can rescue us. In regard to Rev 9:4, 10, I do not see the word 'all' in the text, including in the Greek text. Those fallen supernatural things are commanded to harm men who do not have the forehead seal. Men they encounter, it looks like. Not go out hunting 'all' men on the planet. And if 144,000 nonbelieving (as of yet) Israelis are sealed, by implication I take it that of course all Christian believers left behind are protected from Satan's locusts. Lastly, I understand that those things will mainly, if not totally, be nearer to where Antichrist's kingdom is situated (Europe and the Mediterranean), and that God protects in large part His left-behind children alive until the end of the tribulation. That most of His children on earth for those 3 1/2 years are not martyrs, Rev 12:6, 14-16.

 

[flob]

PW,

I find that based on Mt 17; Mk 9; Lk 9, Moses already has returned to the flesh. That was the point of hiding and contending for his body. Now that I think of it also, the song of Moses is mentioned in Rv 15:3 in relation to the left-behind saints who are martyred. Moses' (and Elijah's) 3 1/2 year ministry as the sons of oil = the time of the Great Tribulation. Unlike the saints being martyred, M and E will be 'immune' from Antichrist's efforts. In fact, M and E will 'dish it out' to their enemies, similar to what God did thru them in the OT. Until the end, right before Armageddon, when M and E will themselves be martyred. I understand that Moses will die a second physical death, but 3 1/2 days later, have a 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 resurrection along with Elijah.

I find that Rev 3:10 implies the rapture in the phrase 'keep you [the overcomers who have kept the word of His endurance] out' of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. I find that this is related to our Lord's parousia mentioned in the next sentence: 'I come quickly,' 3:11. I understand that there may have been an 'hour of trial' for the literal church in Philadelphia in Asia Minor, and for 'the whole inhabited earth,' not long after A.D. 100. (I wonder how the Lord may have kept His overcomers out of it then?) But I understand prophetically that Philadelphia and the 3 other last churches represent 4 different situations of the church lasting up until the Great Tribulation.

I need help following your 'train' example. I need help seeing how 'keeping the word of His endurance' might be the equivalent of 'jumping in front of a train.' Do you mean they were kept from being martyred, much like Paul was preserved
the time he escaped in a basket from Damascus? I find the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 also. (Which is yet another proof that it lasts 3 1/2 years, not 7.) Mt 24:1-14, similar to most of Rv 1--6:8 (including the first 4 seals), transpires throughout this age. Before the Great Tribulation. Mt 24:15 approximately begins the Great Tribulation. With the Abomination of Desolation idol set up by Antichrist and the False Prophet in the (3rd is it?) actual physical Jewish temple in the actual physical city of Jerusalem. In Daniel 9:27, this is done 'in the middle of the week'----that is 3 1/2 years into the last 7 years (9:24-27) apportioned for Daniel's people. The Jews, the Hebrews, Israel. That is why the Great Tribulation is not 7 years. It is 3 1/2 years long.

I will try to save my favorite topic----this 'triggering'----for the end : ) One thing I do Not mean, by using that word, is the mere sequence, chronological, of events. Rather I mean the very essential 'cause.' That.........is a teeny foretaste. First let me try to respond to your other kind comments, PW:

PW says "There is no return of Christ EVER taught to occur BEFORE the Great Trib."
Now this subject does require......the chronology of events particularly. First of all, so as to try to prevent misunderstanding, let me say that there is only One return of Christ in this context. There is only one parousia. One 2nd Coming. But just as that Greek word means, a parousia of a visiting or returning emperor or king is his entire journey from where he was to where he is going. For example, though he was a prisoner and I don't think we'd use the word, Paul's 'parousia' in Acts to Rome began when he appealed to Caesar in Jerusalem. Christ's parousia, from His Father's throne, will be 3 1/2 years long.
I suspect you already agree with me on that.

In other words, Christ's parousia can't begin before the Great Tribulation because.............it coincides with the Great Tribulation. Do you say that the Great Tribulation begins with the Abomination of Desolation, because that is where it begins in Matthew 24 and Daniel 9:27? True enough, but Matthew and Daniel are not the only Scriptures that present the Great Trib. Revelation does in even more detail. In Revelation it does not begin with the 5th seal, it does not begin with the first supernatural calamity to the earth (the 6th seal, Rv 6:12). Instead that sounds like a warning, that the 'great day of Their wrath has come,' 6:17. It doesn't begin with the sealing of the 144,000 Israelis, or Israelites. Evidently it begins either with the (hint of) rapture in 7:9-17 and/or with the 7th seal. The 7th seal seems to be the Answer to the prayers of the saints, 8:3-5, including those of the 5th seal, 6:9-11.

This is kinda what I mean by 'trigger.' Antichrist and Satan are negative. And God ultimately judges them completely. And judges nonchristians and Babylon.....but what does God want in a positive sense? What is He doing positively? Is He merely into judging? Or, equally 'empty,' is He merely into providing a paradise, or happy-kingdom, to His worshippers and believers eventually? What has God been after the whole Bible? From the creation until now? What was in His heart before He created Lucifer? Before Lucifer fell? What is He doing? What turns Him on? What makes Him happy? One could say, What is the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:5)? And not just His 'passing will,' or will for the day (if there is such a thing); what is His eternal purpose (Eph 1:9, 11; 3:11)? That is what I mean to convey by my word 'trigger.' Not merely the prophetic script or sequence of events.....although what He wants, and will get specifically, is part of that...

(Hint: what is the 'trigger' for things to begin, in Rev 8:3-5; cf 6:10; 1:6, 20; 19:10?) But back to the sequence.....
oop, i'll be back, I gotta tend to some other matters.
Thanks

 

[jkalyna]

Thank you everyone for this. I will read this, and learn. Though I have nothing of offer on the topic, I will add this. I feel a rapture every time I spend my time with Jesus. He lifts me from the miry clay, and remolds us, lovingly with his hands. Refreshes like a cleansing balm, and anoints us with his delivering strength, his promises are yea, and amen. Glory!! glorious is he.

 

[VCO]

VCO,



Some see the 144K as symbolic of the Abrahamic Covenant. Abraham was to be a father of a nation more numerable than the stars in heaven or sand of the sea (something like that). 12 represents completeness. 1000 represents a very large number. 12 x 12 x 1000. They aren't the same 12 tribes. The tribes who ran off into idolatry were omitted and replaced. The GM then shows that those in heaven were from every tribe, nation, tongue, etc.

Personally, I think the 144K are the remnant who are still alive when Christ returns. They are descendants of Jacob but from every nation. Nobody can say for sure.



The Elders are not said to be Church elders. John was a Church elder so was he looking at himself? If so, he doesn't recognize himself. Unlikely that they are church elders IMO.


In each case they were given robes when they were in heaven. In each case souls are seen thus, they were dead. I find it interesting that you only want to spiritualize when it suits you.



All Saints. The concept of a "tribulation saint" is not taught or found anywhere. There is no distinguishing between saints found anywhere. Paul includes himself as does John, as saints suffering tribulation awaiting for Christ to return.



Yes, I agree.

And we take it literally, in the end we all will know who they are.

You know if we could really set aside our stalemate differences on certain verses, you and I would probably shock the rest how similar OUR opinions are on the need for those not quite yet, committed Christians, to GET READY FOR THE TIME IS SHORT.

 

[VCO]

#2525 "where did you get Angelic Elders? That is an interpretation that I have never heard before."
--see? How interesting the different readings. Thanks. There are a lot more than 24 elders in the churches over their 2000-year existence. There are apostles, but I believe there are a lot more than 24, and in any case, they are not 'elders' (also = 'overseers,' as that office is mentioned in the churches). Lastly, there is no such universal or permanent office of 'elders' for the believers who die or are taken up. That is both contrary to the nature of the universal church as an organic Body, and utterly unnecessary. Vernon McGee feels they 'stand for the total church.' I'd have to ask him: Why? Why not just say the 'church' there? The churches are already mentioned repeatedly in chapters 2--3. There's no need to jump, in chapters 4--7,
to an ambiguous or odd symbol of the church. John (and the Source) do not employ symbols in Revelation just for the sake of poetry, or for employing symbols. John MacArthur at least has the decorum to use his word 'seem' instead of the unsensible 'categorically and dogmatically'! (Who would want to make a 'dogma' out of this minor question anyway? lol. Maybe brother McGee is old fashioned to me and I just don't understand his mentality.) Zero offense intended, but I would never recommend John MacArthur's commentary. I would unrecommend it. No offense. Not because of this mere small disagreement---he seems to interpret that the Great Tribulation has begun with chapter 4. I also know a brother where I live who takes the call to John in 4:1 to 'come up here' as representative of the first (and pre-trib) rapture of the overcomers! But to me that is silly and unnecessary to symbolize events in such a way. When Revelation talks about rapture, it does so directly (3:10; 12--14; 11:12). Just like our Lord does in the Gospels. Just like the 7 churches are both in the time of John, and also begin (as prophecies) from his time, so I understand that Revelation's other events, starting with chapter 1 and then 4, begin from our Lord's ascension. He is the Lion-Lamb found worthy in chapter 5. To my interpretation, chapters 4--6:8 are all the beginning of this New Testament age. The age of grace. Long before any rapture of the church. After all, with the 5th seal (6:9-11), the deceased overcomers, the martyrs down through church history for example, are still 'under the altar.' Unresurrected. Unraptured. When they make their prayer. They are still in (the nice part of) Hades. This is the time before the church replaces angels (1 Cor 6:3) as 'kings of the universe.' So the 24 elders, like the other creatures in Rev 4---5, are angelic. Wow, sorry, this is turning into much writing. What I object to more from brother MacArthur is his (common, traditional) complete misinterpretation of John 14:1-4 into a kind of silly, physical construction job in the heavens/space, lol. As well: Dan 12:1-3 says nothing about 7 years tribulation. That one irks me : ) because constantly in Rev the 3 1/2 years is delineated. Yet (most of?) Christianity persists in their '7-year' label of the tribulation. Merely, I think, because 7 years at the end of this age are Daniel's 70th 7.


To GA in #2526: I must have misunderstood you. I thought #2517 was saying the 144,000 are the ONLY servants of God still alive on the earth in Rev 7. Yes, in God's control and sovereignty, all things, even His enemy Satan, is His (ugly) 'tool' to bring about His own purpose. For example: not that we should be fleshly, but our fallen flesh 'serves' to drive us to our spirit. To the Lord. The only One who can rescue us. In regard to Rev 9:4, 10, I do not see the word 'all' in the text, including in the Greek text. Those fallen supernatural things are commanded to harm men who do not have the forehead seal. Men they encounter, it looks like. Not go out hunting 'all' men on the planet. And if 144,000 nonbelieving (as of yet) Israelis are sealed, by implication I take it that of course all Christian believers left behind are protected from Satan's locusts. Lastly, I understand that those things will mainly, if not totally, be nearer to where Antichrist's kingdom is situated (Europe and the Mediterranean), and that God protects in large part His left-behind children alive until the end of the tribulation. That most of His children on earth for those 3 1/2 years are not martyrs, Rev 12:6, 14-16.

A more likely scenario, is the only Jews left alive in Jerusalem to see HIM coming.

The 24 elders could be the 24 most influential elders. Could Billy Graham be one of them, who influenced all denominations?

Revelation 5:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 1:11-13 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.

Revelation 1:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

I am not seeing Angelic Elders, it all seems to be pointing to influential Elders of the ASSEMBLY HE has been building from ADAM on to the Present day Church.

While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ's righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them.
Assuming, then, that the twenty-four elders are humans, the question remains as to which humans they represent. First, it should be noted that the number twenty-four is used in Scripture to speak of completion and representation. There were twenty-four officers of the sanctuary representing the twenty-four courses of the Levitical priests (1 Chron. 24:4-5, 7-18), as well as twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple (1 Chron. 25). Whoever the twenty-four elders are, then, they likely represent a larger group.
Some believe the elders represent Israel. But while individual Jews have been and will continue to be redeemed throughout history, at the time of this vision the nation as a whole had not yet been redeemed. Their national judgment and salvation (Rom. 11:26) comes during the Tribulation (chaps. 6-19), largely as a result of the evangelistic efforts of the 144,000 (introduced in chap. 7). When the twenty-four elders are first introduced, those events are yet to take place.
Similarly, the elders cannot be Tribulation saints, since they too had not yet been converted. The elders are already in heaven when the Tribulation saints arrive. Revelation 7:11-14 describes the scene:

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
​

The elders are also seen in heaven when other momentous events of the Tribulation take place, such as when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdom of Christ (11:15-18), when the 144,000 gather on Mount Zion (14:1-3), and when God destroys the Babylonian economic and religious system (19:1-4).Some would split the twenty-four elders into two groups of twelve, one representing the church and the other Israel. There is no compelling exegetical reason, however, for so dividing them. In all their appearances in Revelation they appear as a unified group of twenty-four, never as two groups of twelve.
It is unlikely, then, that the twenty-four elders are angels, or that they represent Israel, the Tribulation saints, or a combination of Israel and the church. That leaves one most acceptable possibility, that they represent the raptured, glorified, coronated church, which sings the song of redemption (5:8-10). They have their crowns and live in the place prepared for them, where they have gone to be with Jesus (cf. John 14:1-4).

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.

 

[PlainWord]

And we take it literally, in the end we all will know who they are.

You know if we could really set aside our stalemate differences on certain verses, you and I would probably shock the rest how similar OUR opinions are on the need for those not quite yet, committed Christians, to GET READY FOR THE TIME IS SHORT.

You are a good Christian and love the Lord, I can see that. You are correct, our difference on certain issues should not detract from our need to witness to a sinful world which is about to get spanked.

 

[prove-all]

The land promise (Ge 15:18-21) has been fulfilled.

you forgot to add a few promises to that verse


God promised Abraham’s literal, human,flesh-and blood descendants
should become “a great nation” Gen12:2

that He would “multiply thee exceedingly” (Genesis 17:2);
that“thou shalt be a father of many nations”(verse 4);

“I will make thee exceeding fruitful,and I will make nations of thee”(verse 6).

In Genesis 17:8, God promised “all the land of Canaan,”
but in other scriptures He promised much more.

In Genesis 15:18:Unto thy seed have I given this land,
from the river of Egypt [the Nile] unto the great river,

Genesis 24:60 to Abraham’s daughter-in-law: “e thou the mother of thousands of millions,
and let thy seedpossess the gate of those which hate them.”

“By myself have I sworn, saith the [Eternal],
because thou hast done,not withheld thy only son

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I willmultiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven,
and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gates of his enemies.

The promise now is unconditional.
This legacy guaranteed on the authority of God Almighty unconditionally, multitudinous population,
untold wealth and material resources, national greatness and world power! owning enemys sea gates

The spiritual promises,the promises of the “one seed,”Christ,
and of salvation through Him—Bible calls the scepter.

But the material and national promises relating to many
nations, national wealth, prosperity and power, and possession
of the Holy Land, the Bible calls the birthright.

Both the birthright and the scepter were repromised
by the Eternal to Abraham and Isaac and to Jacob.


Therefore God give thee (Jacob) of the dew of heaven
and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine
increase and possession]: Let people serve thee, and
nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren
and let thy mother’s sons bow down to thee:
cursed be every one that curseth thee,
and blessed be he that blesseth thee” Gen 27:26-29

Isaac kinda cursed Esau,“Behold,thy dwelling shall be away
from the fatness of the earth,the dew of heaven from above;
And by thy sword shalt thou live,shalt serve thy brother;

and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion
that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
-future meaning, And Esau hated Jacob …” (verses 39-41).

where material blessing of wealth in the things of the ground added,
heathen nations shall be ruled by the birthright nations of Israel
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth

and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east
and to the north,and to the south(Genesis 28:14-14).

-Israel shall eventually spread around the world
as dust of the ground,and sands of the sea shore.

Genesis 28:15 “I am with thee, and will keep thee
in all places whither thou goest,and will bring thee again
into this land; for I will not leave thee,
until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of”


But after years of trial and test—after finally wrestling
all night with the angel (Genesis 32:24-29)
after confessing his name as “supplanter”


God bestowed His blessing upon Jacob, and took away
his reproachful name, and gave him a new, untainted name,

Israel—which means “prevailer,” or “overcomer with God.”
God appeared to Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. Gen35:11

 

[prove-all]

The "ten lost tribes" are found in Ezra 6:17; Ac 26:7; Jas 1:1;

lets check those verses

Ezra 6:17
16And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children
of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,

17And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams,
four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats,
according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

-verse says for a sin offering for all Israel was given, does not say all Israel was there.
the children of Israel are Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, the Levites.

1) In 721-718 b.c. Israel began to be “carried away out of their own land to Assyria” (2 Kings 17:23).
They were soon all removed—completely. “[T]here was none left but the tribe of Judah only”
(verse 18). Judah, only, remained.

2) More than 130 years later, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon carried the Jews—Judah—
who only remained in Palestine away to Babylon. None of the house of Israel dwelt in Palestine
at the time of this captivity of Judah.

3) Those who returned to Palestine to rebuild the temple and restore worship 70 years
after Judah’s captivity were all of the house of Judah—all Jews—all of those whom Nebuchadnezzar
had carried away. They returned again “unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city” (Ezra 2:1).

-Only those of the tribe of Judah, together with remnants of Benjamin and Levi,
who constituted the house of Judah, returned at that time,

“Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites” (Ezra 1:5).

-they became the children of Israel , but are not the nation of Israel.

Ac 26:7
7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

-so Paul is hoping for the promise given to the 12 tribes, not only one tribe.
does not say the tribes are there at that time.

Jas 1:1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which
are scattered abroad, greeting.

- says scattered abroad , does not say there where anywhere close by or there.