When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
When you change translations from the KJV it goes from "church" to "congregation". Also, you read way too much KJV it's hard to tell when the verses end and you begin. It kinda sounds like you think yourself superior. I'm not saying you think that. Just that it sounds like it. Also, I'm not too bright and that explanation was way too long to hold my attention. Short version please?
C
Hi Elin, 
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
F
"Matthew 28:20...The promise would have no meaning."
That's very good. Amen. But that doesn't also take away from the promise or reward of an earlier rapture (3 1/2 years
earlier, since that is the length of the great tribulation) to the overcomers, Rev 3:10; 14:1-5; cf 12:5-6; Lk 21:36; 17:33-36.
"The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated."
I'm not sure exactly what the 'secret rapture doctrine' is, but Christ coming as a thief, per His word, is fulfilled by the rapture
of the 'firstfruits,' the living overcomers. Which doesn't totally separate, nor majority-separate, the wheat from the tares, 3 1/2 years before the end. Since.......by definition, the firstfruits are a small minority of all the saints.
""And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17)."
This refers to the 'harvest of the wheat.' To the cloud. As opposed to the minority, firstfruit. To His thone. To the Mt Zion of the heavens in Rev 14:1-5. In Philippians, Paul desired to be part of the "Ek-resurrection" from the dead. The 'Extra' or 'Out(standing)-resurrection." Which simply means to overcome. To have finished his course (which, in fact, he wrote he was
assured of in his last letter---2 Timothy). The word to the new church, the Thessalonians, was more general. But the raptures, pre- and end-trib, both fall within the ambit of the 'last day' in that sense.
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years. As Revelation repeatedly says. Not seven years. Regardless, yes, the large majority of living (and currently deceased) saints will be resurrected and raptured at the end of the tribulation.
In regard to the lightning/visible aspect of the Lord's coming, His coming includes both 'secret' and open aspects. The truth is not narrow, but rather is a little more involved than mere 'pre-trib' or mere 'post-trib' positions. Single chapters at once, Rev 12, then Rev 14, dispel that notion. The visible bright aspect of His coming, at the time of Armageddon, is from cloud to earth.
The 'secret' aspect, prior, was from throne to cloud. The meaning of the Greek word Parousia meant precisely that---the entire
expedition/journey of the king or emperor. From capitol, or wherever--one town----to another. Parousia does not mean merely the king's immediate entrance.
" To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God."
To either ignore or worse, deny, that the Lord Jesus Also uses the word and description of 'thief' to describe that aspect of
His coming, His parousia, and to warn His believers to be watchful, and even to pray to escape all the things of the great
tribulation, and stand before the Son of Man (in the heavens), is to deny the Bible as the Word of God.
In regard to 'one taken, one left,' and 'weeping and gnashing of teeth,' there is both the reward or overcoming of escaping
'all these things,' and there is also the matter of the reward, or punishment, during the 1000 years itself. Our Lord's reference to the 'vulture' is positive! In that illustration, He and His overcoming army, returning in the air and destroying Antichrist
and his armies at Armageddon, is the victory of the eagle, or 'vulture,' over the slain enemies.
That's very good. Amen. But that doesn't also take away from the promise or reward of an earlier rapture (3 1/2 years
earlier, since that is the length of the great tribulation) to the overcomers, Rev 3:10; 14:1-5; cf 12:5-6; Lk 21:36; 17:33-36.
"The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated."
I'm not sure exactly what the 'secret rapture doctrine' is, but Christ coming as a thief, per His word, is fulfilled by the rapture
of the 'firstfruits,' the living overcomers. Which doesn't totally separate, nor majority-separate, the wheat from the tares, 3 1/2 years before the end. Since.......by definition, the firstfruits are a small minority of all the saints.
""And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17)."
This refers to the 'harvest of the wheat.' To the cloud. As opposed to the minority, firstfruit. To His thone. To the Mt Zion of the heavens in Rev 14:1-5. In Philippians, Paul desired to be part of the "Ek-resurrection" from the dead. The 'Extra' or 'Out(standing)-resurrection." Which simply means to overcome. To have finished his course (which, in fact, he wrote he was
assured of in his last letter---2 Timothy). The word to the new church, the Thessalonians, was more general. But the raptures, pre- and end-trib, both fall within the ambit of the 'last day' in that sense.
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years. As Revelation repeatedly says. Not seven years. Regardless, yes, the large majority of living (and currently deceased) saints will be resurrected and raptured at the end of the tribulation.
In regard to the lightning/visible aspect of the Lord's coming, His coming includes both 'secret' and open aspects. The truth is not narrow, but rather is a little more involved than mere 'pre-trib' or mere 'post-trib' positions. Single chapters at once, Rev 12, then Rev 14, dispel that notion. The visible bright aspect of His coming, at the time of Armageddon, is from cloud to earth.
The 'secret' aspect, prior, was from throne to cloud. The meaning of the Greek word Parousia meant precisely that---the entire
expedition/journey of the king or emperor. From capitol, or wherever--one town----to another. Parousia does not mean merely the king's immediate entrance.
" To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God."
To either ignore or worse, deny, that the Lord Jesus Also uses the word and description of 'thief' to describe that aspect of
His coming, His parousia, and to warn His believers to be watchful, and even to pray to escape all the things of the great
tribulation, and stand before the Son of Man (in the heavens), is to deny the Bible as the Word of God.
In regard to 'one taken, one left,' and 'weeping and gnashing of teeth,' there is both the reward or overcoming of escaping
'all these things,' and there is also the matter of the reward, or punishment, during the 1000 years itself. Our Lord's reference to the 'vulture' is positive! In that illustration, He and His overcoming army, returning in the air and destroying Antichrist
and his armies at Armageddon, is the victory of the eagle, or 'vulture,' over the slain enemies.
Hi Elin,
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
Conniek, perhaps you can answer a question for me about an expression that those of your position use frequently.
You just used that expression "a secret rapture doctrine"; do you know that not one person that I know, who believes in the Calling Out of the Bride before the final 7 years of man ruling on the earth, ever uses that expression. IT NEVER HAS BEEN A SECRET. All you have to do to see it clearly is study the Jewish Wedding Customs of the time of Christ.
He made a contract with the Father to redeem (purchase) the Bride.
He proposed non-verbally by passing the betrothal cup to the Apostles, the foundation of the Assembly.
He used the traditional Betrothal announcement of a Bridegroom, "I go to prepare a place for you."
He Paid the Price in full that the Father had Demanded.
He gave the Bride a precious gift (the Hold Spirit), to assure her that He would return to call her out of her old dwelling place (earth) to go to the wedding in the Father's House where He built the New Dwelling Place, for His Bride.
The precious gift (the Holy Spirit) is also the SEAL of Promise to the Bride.
He has chosen His Wedding Party and the one He wants to shout and call His Bride Out.
He awaits the Father's final inspection of the New Dwelling Place, and the command, "It is good, go get your Bride."
That is why no one know the day or the hour, because the Father only has the right to do the final inspection.
He has followed all of the Jewish Wedding Customs.
So where on earth do you guys get the idea that it is "a secret rapture doctrine"?
Last edited:
P
Hi Elin,
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
Now here is what I find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.
Will It Be Secret?
The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two-stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised. He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage:
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating
and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:37-41).
Jesus is clearly drawing a parallel between the second coming and the days of Noah. Those who entered the ark in Noah's day were saved, and those who refused to enter the ark were left outside. But what were they left for? For another chance? No, obviously they were left to be destroyed by the Flood. So, says Jesus, will it be when He comes at the end of the world. One will be taken to heaven with Jesus, and the other will be left for destruction. Verse 51 makes clear what will happen to those who are left: "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read Luke 17:26-37 for Luke's parallel account of these same words of Jesus. In verse 36, this statement is made: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now notice verse 37 and the question the disciples asked: "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?" They wanted to know where those who didn't go to heaven were going to be left. Notice Jesus' clear answer: "And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
You have jesus coming FOR HIS SAINTS during eating,drinking,etc,and that same event preflood,as well as the righteous gathered preflood,then somehow you make a grand canyon leap and say it is postrib.
P
Postribs make this inverted 180.Postribbs say ,erroneously,that the ones "taken" are wicked pple,the ones left are the righteous. Then when asked to prove it through scripture it blows up in their face,and the miraculously,and quite obliviously, say "see ?see that? the wicked are taken first"
You cannot not have it both ways.
Welcome to postrib confusionville
You cannot not have it both ways.
Welcome to postrib confusionville
I've stated this probably 1,000 times on here. The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic. Almost nothing within Revelation is to be taken literally unless the spiritual symbolism does not work. This is the exact opposite from the normal way to see scripture. Even the numbers used in Revelation are symbolic in that they are coded. Always use Revelation to solve Revelation, if possible. If not, use John, then use the OT prophets, if the correct meaning cannot be found then use the whole Bible. Revelation is written in code and the code book to solve it is the Bible.
That said, the two witnesses represent either the Church and Israel or just two of the 7 churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. Regardless, they are not literal men. Literal men do not breath fire. The Churches are the witnesses to the world. The Church is everywhere in the world being a witness. The symbolism in Rev 11 is perfect and describes the Church perfectly.
Prophesy means "to teach." This came to me today. The Church is to witness for 1,260 days which is 3.5 years. Many think (and I agree) that Christ's ministry lasted 3.5 years. Christ is the Bride Groom and the Church is His Bride. The Bride is following her Groom exactly. Christ died and was in the grave 3.5 days. The two witnesses will be killed and remain dead for 3.5 days. After the 3.5 days the Church will be resurrected, just like Christ.
Christ left the earth a Lamb who had been slain. This is exactly how John saw Christ in heaven as a Lamb who had been slain. Christ did not leave earth with a pristine body. Neither will the Church. A big part of our witness to the earth is the fact that we can and do endure hardship. We suffer for our faith. This is how we are purified and made white. The Bride will likewise not leave earth with a pristine body but as a slaughtered, beheaded Bride ready and worthy for her Groom.
It all fits. Thus John is giving us a picture of the Church which matches the picture of Christ. We are commanded to "Take up our Cross and follow Him." We are the LIGHT of the WORLD, the LAMPSTANDS. Once the Light goes out there will be darkness on the earth. Darkness in a spiritual sense is the condition on earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
That said, the two witnesses represent either the Church and Israel or just two of the 7 churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. Regardless, they are not literal men. Literal men do not breath fire. The Churches are the witnesses to the world. The Church is everywhere in the world being a witness. The symbolism in Rev 11 is perfect and describes the Church perfectly.
Prophesy means "to teach." This came to me today. The Church is to witness for 1,260 days which is 3.5 years. Many think (and I agree) that Christ's ministry lasted 3.5 years. Christ is the Bride Groom and the Church is His Bride. The Bride is following her Groom exactly. Christ died and was in the grave 3.5 days. The two witnesses will be killed and remain dead for 3.5 days. After the 3.5 days the Church will be resurrected, just like Christ.
Christ left the earth a Lamb who had been slain. This is exactly how John saw Christ in heaven as a Lamb who had been slain. Christ did not leave earth with a pristine body. Neither will the Church. A big part of our witness to the earth is the fact that we can and do endure hardship. We suffer for our faith. This is how we are purified and made white. The Bride will likewise not leave earth with a pristine body but as a slaughtered, beheaded Bride ready and worthy for her Groom.
It all fits. Thus John is giving us a picture of the Church which matches the picture of Christ. We are commanded to "Take up our Cross and follow Him." We are the LIGHT of the WORLD, the LAMPSTANDS. Once the Light goes out there will be darkness on the earth. Darkness in a spiritual sense is the condition on earth before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Last edited:
You focus too much on the order of who is taken first. Both groups are taken. The wicked to the Lake of Fire, the Righteous to be with the Lord. The order was made clear in Mat 13 as I've pointed out many times. Nothing has "blown up" in our face.
The tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat. Why not pull up the tares who the Devil has planted? Christ teaches us not to pull up the tares least some wheat is pulled up with them. Both are allowed to grow... until when??? The End of the Age. Not until the Tribulation but until the END of the AGE.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
It troubles me Brother Popeye that you read the above and not see the correct order. It's right there in Black and White, (except I made it blue).
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Those that offend are gathered out of His Kingdom. The righteous then shine forth. Christ gathers us unto Himself. There is no confusion in our camp dear friend.
The tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat. Why not pull up the tares who the Devil has planted? Christ teaches us not to pull up the tares least some wheat is pulled up with them. Both are allowed to grow... until when??? The End of the Age. Not until the Tribulation but until the END of the AGE.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
It troubles me Brother Popeye that you read the above and not see the correct order. It's right there in Black and White, (except I made it blue).
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Those that offend are gathered out of His Kingdom. The righteous then shine forth. Christ gathers us unto Himself. There is no confusion in our camp dear friend.
There are none Raptured in heaven save Enoch and Elijah. Neither saw death and they are not going to see death. Imagine God saying to them, "Okay guys, I spared you earlier now get down there and let the Beast behead you." Not going to happen.
There will NEVER be any Raptured in the current heaven as it sits today. Instead there will be a slaughtered church. Only a remnant ELECT or Chosen will remain on earth to actually see Christ return. This is the lesson of Revelation 7. The 144K are the remnant of Israel. Originally before Christ, Salvation was only for the Jews. Jesus Himself teaches us this in John 4:22. But then because of the Cross, all can have salvation. We then see the GM in heaven from where?
of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.
How many are there?
a great multitude which no one could number.
What was Jacob promised?
Gen 32: [SUP]12 [/SUP]For You said, ‘I will surely treat you well, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.’”
Not just the Jews any more but all Believers.
There will NEVER be any Raptured in the current heaven as it sits today. Instead there will be a slaughtered church. Only a remnant ELECT or Chosen will remain on earth to actually see Christ return. This is the lesson of Revelation 7. The 144K are the remnant of Israel. Originally before Christ, Salvation was only for the Jews. Jesus Himself teaches us this in John 4:22. But then because of the Cross, all can have salvation. We then see the GM in heaven from where?
of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.
How many are there?
a great multitude which no one could number.
What was Jacob promised?
Gen 32: [SUP]12 [/SUP]For You said, ‘I will surely treat you well, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.’”
Not just the Jews any more but all Believers.
G
"Let's go at this from a little bit different angle..."
Revelation 7:
[SUP]1[/SUP] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [SUP]2[/SUP] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [SUP]3[/SUP] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
There are two things that I believe are very clear in these verses:
~ The four angels - "to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" - have not yet begun to hurt the earth, the sea, or the trees.
~ At the particular point in time indicated in these verses, the 144,000 are the only "servants of God" still alive on the earth. ( i.e. - no other Born-Again Christians are alive on the earth at this particular point in time - only the 144,000 remain )
Agreed?
Revelation 7:
[SUP]1[/SUP] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [SUP]2[/SUP] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [SUP]3[/SUP] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [SUP]4[/SUP] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
There are two things that I believe are very clear in these verses:
~ The four angels - "to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea" - have not yet begun to hurt the earth, the sea, or the trees.
~ At the particular point in time indicated in these verses, the 144,000 are the only "servants of God" still alive on the earth. ( i.e. - no other Born-Again Christians are alive on the earth at this particular point in time - only the 144,000 remain )
Agreed?
Read the verse more slowly, and maybe then you will see the TRUTH:
Revelation 7:9-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!
After WHAT? After 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel were sealed in the forehead of their mortal bodies.
Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been. {So the beheadings of the Tribulation Saints begins.}
Revelation 7:13-15 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they? {Here we find one of the elders of the Church pointing out another group in white robes, given to them after they arrive in heaven.}
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.
Revelation 4:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. {Here we find the Elders of the Church already in heaven in white robes.}
Does the Church have to wait until Heaven before the walk in White Robes with HIM?
Revelation 3:4-5 (NJB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There are a few in Sardis, it is true, who have kept their robes unstained, and they are fit to come with me, dressed in white.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Anyone who proves victorious will be dressed, like these, in white robes; I shall not blot that name out of the book of life, but acknowledge it in the presence of my Father and his angels.
Revelation 3:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see.
Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Putting on the new self is when we start walking in white robes, that born again experience when the Holy Spirit brings our once dead human spirit to eternal life in Christ.
PlainWord, do yourself a favor and listen to at least the first one hour tape of Dr. John MacArthur's 36 hour series of teaching verse by verse through the book of Revelation. That first tape is entitled: "A Jet Tour Through Revelation".
Grace to You
Grace to You