When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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V. 5 is parenthetical.
Vv. 4-5 read: "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . .(parenthetical). . .This is the first resurrection."
Others validly (i.e., in agreement with NT teaching) interpret the prophetic riddle to mean the born again of the the church age (1000 being a number symbolizing fullness, completion) will not experience eternal death.
Vv. 4-5 read: "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . .(parenthetical). . .This is the first resurrection."
Others validly (i.e., in agreement with NT teaching) interpret the prophetic riddle to mean the born again of the the church age (1000 being a number symbolizing fullness, completion) will not experience eternal death.
We are discussing whether or not there is a millennium, not the timing of the Lord's return. Elin has the timing of the Lord correctly located after the Tribulation. As far as I know, none of us are trying to set the day or hour precisely because of Mat 24:36, but we can know the season and we are commanded to watch.
No, we are not in agreement. The restoration is this current earth being restored to a previous condition it once had. You argue, pre-sin Adam which I can perhaps accept. However, man still dies after Christ returns. We know there is death because A) He kills a boat load of people, B) Righteous die too as we are told in multiple places like Rev 14, Heb 9 and Isa 65. Thus the restored earth cannot happen at the beginning of the Lord's return unless it is to a pre-Flood and not pre-Adam condition.
We are instructed that Christ rules the Nations with a rod of iron. If nations are still around, we are NOT in the eternal state. No wicked are admitted to the new heaven or new earth. The wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire, Rev 20:15, and remembered no more.
All wars are over and all dying ceases when we get to the new heaven and earth. So, if there is war or killing still happening we are NOT there yet.
We are instructed that Christ rules the Nations with a rod of iron. If nations are still around, we are NOT in the eternal state. No wicked are admitted to the new heaven or new earth. The wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire, Rev 20:15, and remembered no more.
All wars are over and all dying ceases when we get to the new heaven and earth. So, if there is war or killing still happening we are NOT there yet.
You have wars when Christ returns. You have Israel on the verge of destruction. You have dead being buried for 7 months. You have nations coming to worship the Lord every year or rain is withheld. You have nations being ruled with a Rod of Iron by Christ Himself. You have lions eating grass and wolves laying with lambs. You have Saints in Jerusalem being surrounded by Satan's forces where God sends down fire and consumes them. All of this happens before the end but after Christ returns.
Watcher asked, now I'm asking, how long does this take? Could it take 1,000 years?
Watcher asked, now I'm asking, how long does this take? Could it take 1,000 years?
This is all moot................from OP to this post of mine........it is all MOOT...........
Whatever happens has FROM THE BEGINNING been PREDESTINED to happen........sorry, but, hey, if you are one of those predestined for salvation...........that's good news for you anyway..........everyone else will just have to deal with eternal damnation........so, given that, who cares WHEN the rapture will occur, or how many of them there are?
Whatever happens has FROM THE BEGINNING been PREDESTINED to happen........sorry, but, hey, if you are one of those predestined for salvation...........that's good news for you anyway..........everyone else will just have to deal with eternal damnation........so, given that, who cares WHEN the rapture will occur, or how many of them there are?
Keeping in mind two things:
1) this assumes that private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is correct, and
2) certain NT teaching does not allow for a temporal period after Christ returns, because
it locates Christ's return in conjunction with
the resurrection (redemption of our bodies) Ro 8:21-22; 1Th 4:16-17,
the rapture - 1Th 4:17, the final judgment - Heb 9:27-28,
the new heavens and new earth - Ro 8:21; Ac 3:21,
which is eternity where there is no death (Rev 21:4).
1) this assumes that private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is correct, and
2) certain NT teaching does not allow for a temporal period after Christ returns, because
it locates Christ's return in conjunction with
the resurrection (redemption of our bodies) Ro 8:21-22; 1Th 4:16-17,
the rapture - 1Th 4:17, the final judgment - Heb 9:27-28,
the new heavens and new earth - Ro 8:21; Ac 3:21,
which is eternity where there is no death (Rev 21:4).
All except for the fact that a man's actions can change God's mind...
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Actually, Elin has shown from certain NT teaching the location of the
regeneration (Mt 19:28) and restoration (Ac 3:21) with the new heavens and new earth (Ro 8:20-23)
(where there is no death--Rev 21:4, because it is eternity)
which are with the second coming (Ac 3:21) and final judgment (Heb 9:27-28).
Certain NT teaching does not allow for a temporal period in the new heavens and new earth of timeless eternity.
regeneration (Mt 19:28) and restoration (Ac 3:21) with the new heavens and new earth (Ro 8:20-23)
(where there is no death--Rev 21:4, because it is eternity)
which are with the second coming (Ac 3:21) and final judgment (Heb 9:27-28).
Certain NT teaching does not allow for a temporal period in the new heavens and new earth of timeless eternity.
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The above so clearly state..."in the regeneration"....
trying to dodge...but making no sense at all...(the text clearly state/ judgement/governance in the regeneration...and the next verse even suggest eternal life...
Mat 19:29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
trying to dodge...but making no sense at all...(the text clearly state/ judgement/governance in the regeneration...and the next verse even suggest eternal life...
Mat 19:29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
actually What Elin has showed so far was her private/personal and uncertain interpretation of verses to fit her teaching...
the certain apostolic and NT teaching is this:
THE END WILL COME when Christ (the Son) has put down all rule, authority and power and delivered the kingdom to God (the Father)
1Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Tell me who's ruling in Mat 19:28 the Son or the Father?
by the way notice also that those who followed him have been given (authority to judge)
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When will the Son hand over the kingdom to the Father?
the certain apostolic and NT teaching is this:
THE END WILL COME when Christ (the Son) has put down all rule, authority and power and delivered the kingdom to God (the Father)
1Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Tell me who's ruling in Mat 19:28 the Son or the Father?
by the way notice also that those who followed him have been given (authority to judge)
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When will the Son hand over the kingdom to the Father?
Well the rapture being described is the actual resurection of the just , the just made righteous through Jesus and saved only through jesus , before jesus those souls were set free by jesus during His descend into Hell so the only dormant righteous ones left for the angels to gather are the ones savedt through Jesus making it very possible and most factual is that the white throne judgement is actually a sentencing by evidemce of scriptures available but i encourage others to speak on this matter
Biblical Evidences For a Pre-Trib Rapture:
(Although this is not a complete list of every Biblical reason for the Pre-Trib Rapture, I have attempted to list as many Scriptural evidences and truths (that back up the Bible) that supports it):
#1. You Do Not Know The Day or the Hour and the Evil Servant:
#2. We Are Not Appointed Unto Wrath:
#3. Escape All These Things to Come:
#4. There is a Pattern of of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Genesis and Revelation:
#5. There are Problems With the Other Rapture Views:
#6. Understanding Differences Between the Pre-Trib Rapture & the 2nd Coming.:
Also, there is a seventh reason that deals with how the Rapture is like a Marriage. I have decided to leave this one open to read (Of which you can check out in my following post below).
(Although this is not a complete list of every Biblical reason for the Pre-Trib Rapture, I have attempted to list as many Scriptural evidences and truths (that back up the Bible) that supports it):
- You Do Not Know The Day or the Hour and the Evil Servant.
- We Are Not Appointed Unto Wrath.
- Escape All These Things To Come.
- There is a Pattern of of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Genesis and Revelation.
- There are Problems With the Other Rapture Views.
- Understanding Differences Between the Pre-Trib Rapture & the 2nd Coming.
#1. You Do Not Know The Day or the Hour and the Evil Servant:
Matthew 24:36-51, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 21:34-36, Luke 12:45-46
The Olivet discourse passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke make it clear that we do not know the day or hour of the Rapture. If you hold to a Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib), Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib), Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib view on the Rapture, then you have to either ignore these passages or twist them slightly to fit your eschatology. Now, many will say that you can still not know the day or the hour with a view other than a the Pre-Trib position, but that is just not the case at all. For a person can clearly see the signs happening all around them within the Tribulation, and then they can be prepared, thereby having an idea of when the day or the hour is going to happen. The second problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.
"[YELLOW]If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken[/YELLOW];" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)
So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says.
For Matthew continues to say,
"[YELLOW]The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder[/YELLOW]" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)
In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.
Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...
• Titus 2:13
To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.
The Olivet discourse passages in Matthew, Mark, and Luke make it clear that we do not know the day or hour of the Rapture. If you hold to a Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib), Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib), Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib view on the Rapture, then you have to either ignore these passages or twist them slightly to fit your eschatology. Now, many will say that you can still not know the day or the hour with a view other than a the Pre-Trib position, but that is just not the case at all. For a person can clearly see the signs happening all around them within the Tribulation, and then they can be prepared, thereby having an idea of when the day or the hour is going to happen. The second problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.
"[YELLOW]If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken[/YELLOW];" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)
So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says.
For Matthew continues to say,
"[YELLOW]The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder[/YELLOW]" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)
In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.
Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...
• Titus 2:13
[YELLOW]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[/YELLOW];
To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.
#2. We Are Not Appointed Unto Wrath:
Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9
• Luke 21:20-24a
The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):
Description of the Day of the Lord:
• Zephaniah 1:14-15
The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):
The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):
• Revelation 6:14-17
Revelation 16:1
Oh, and if you want to check out my chronology for Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, then please check out this post here:
ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, [YELLOW]which delivered us from the wrath to come[/YELLOW]."
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9
"[YELLOW]For God hath not appointed us to wrath[/YELLOW], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
• Luke 21:20-24a
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [YELLOW]For these be the days of vengeance[/YELLOW], that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! [YELLOW]for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.[/YELLOW] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):
Description of the Day of the Lord:
• Zephaniah 1:14-15
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [YELLOW]That day is a day of wrath[/YELLOW], a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
• Zechariah 14:1 NLTWatch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you!
The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):
The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):
• Revelation 6:14-17
Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:
And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [YELLOW]For the great day of his wrath has come[/YELLOW]; and who shall be able to stand?
The Seals are then followed by the trumpet and bowl (or vial) Judgments. In the bowl Judgments, the Wrath of God is poured upon the Earth.And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [YELLOW]For the great day of his wrath has come[/YELLOW]; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and [YELLOW]pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth[/YELLOW].
This is the conclusion of the Lord's Wrath. The Wrath was mentioned at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:14-17), which is a Judgment that happens as a follow up to the antichrist killing a large portion of the Earth with the fourth seal, followed by the death of the saints and their cry in heaven for vengeance with the fifth seal. Anyways, here is a timeline of the events:
Oh, and if you want to check out my chronology for Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, then please check out this post here:
ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
#3. Escape All These Things to Come:
• Luke 21:34-36
"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)
How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, [YELLOW]that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,[/YELLOW] and to stand before the Son of man.
• Revelation 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, [YELLOW]I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world[/YELLOW], to try them that dwell upon the earth.
In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation..."And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)
How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?
#4. There is a Pattern of of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Genesis and Revelation:
Now, when we want to verify a truth within God's Word, we know that the Bible testifies of itself by the fact that it repeats the same message or idea over and over thru out the whole of Scripture.
So one came make the parallel that...
1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)
In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.
For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:
1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.
For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.
So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.
So one came make the parallel that...
1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)
In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.
For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:
1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.
For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.
So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.
#5. There are Problems With the Other Rapture Views:
Now that we established that the Pre-Trib view has significant weight according to Scripture and that it can be imminent or happen at any moment, lets examine some of the other positions on the timing of the Rapture and why these other views do not work (Note: The following positions are examined under the Biblical Standpoint that the Fourth Seal is the Anti-Christ's enforcement of the Mark or the Martydom of the Saints (Please see my Commentary and Time Line on the Fourth Seal Below in my Post Titled "The Last Half of the Tribulation".
The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) View:
The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) Position does not work because there would not be enough time for new believers after the Rapture to populate into the great number of saints that we see in Heaven at the breaking of the fifth seal that come out of the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Which is the Anti-Christ's enforcement of the Mark or the breaking of the Fourth Seal).
The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Views:
The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Positions do not work because we already have seen the Saints in Heaven from the Great Tribulation at the breaking of the fifth seal crying out for vengeance before the supposed Rapture point after the breaking of the sixth or seventh seal. The "Harpazo" or Rapture cannot happen at these points because the Rapture is a relatively short uninterrupted one time event that happens at the Trump of God with the dead rising in Christ first and the rest of the living saints then being caught up in the air. In other words, an honest reading of Thessalonians 4:16-18 suggests that there is no time gap in the description of this event. Now, some have suggested that those saints at the breaking of the fifth seal are waiting for their new resurrected bodies under the altar of God. However, there is no Biblical proof of this. Actually, the Harpazo in Thessalonians tells us that the dead in Christ shall "rise". Where exactly are they rising from? It appears they are already in Heaven with the Lord. Where else can they rise to? Well, within the Rapture, the dead in Christ are rising from Abraham's bosom. But to interpret the English word "rise" as a moment of the saint already in Heaven as a receiving of their new resurrected bodies is a huge stretch of the imagination that goes way beyond the text.
The Post Trib View:
The Post Trib Position does not work because it has to ignore the Wrath of God being poured out with the Vial or Bowl Judgments; For Thessalonians 1:10 says we are delivered from the Wrath to come. This view also does not work because the dead in Christ are already in Heaven waiting to follow Christ into battle, too. For one, there is no rising up of the dead mentioned in the Olivet discourse or Revelation at Christ's Second Coming. Second, as mentioned before, the saints are already in Heaven way back at the fifth seal and they did not rise up yet again for the Second Coming of Christ. These dead in Christ have been in Heaven with God for quite some time already.
The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) View:
The Pre-Wrath (Pre-Mid Trib) Position does not work because there would not be enough time for new believers after the Rapture to populate into the great number of saints that we see in Heaven at the breaking of the fifth seal that come out of the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Which is the Anti-Christ's enforcement of the Mark or the breaking of the Fourth Seal).
The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Views:
The Pre-Wrath (Post Mid Trib) or Mid Trib Positions do not work because we already have seen the Saints in Heaven from the Great Tribulation at the breaking of the fifth seal crying out for vengeance before the supposed Rapture point after the breaking of the sixth or seventh seal. The "Harpazo" or Rapture cannot happen at these points because the Rapture is a relatively short uninterrupted one time event that happens at the Trump of God with the dead rising in Christ first and the rest of the living saints then being caught up in the air. In other words, an honest reading of Thessalonians 4:16-18 suggests that there is no time gap in the description of this event. Now, some have suggested that those saints at the breaking of the fifth seal are waiting for their new resurrected bodies under the altar of God. However, there is no Biblical proof of this. Actually, the Harpazo in Thessalonians tells us that the dead in Christ shall "rise". Where exactly are they rising from? It appears they are already in Heaven with the Lord. Where else can they rise to? Well, within the Rapture, the dead in Christ are rising from Abraham's bosom. But to interpret the English word "rise" as a moment of the saint already in Heaven as a receiving of their new resurrected bodies is a huge stretch of the imagination that goes way beyond the text.
The Post Trib View:
The Post Trib Position does not work because it has to ignore the Wrath of God being poured out with the Vial or Bowl Judgments; For Thessalonians 1:10 says we are delivered from the Wrath to come. This view also does not work because the dead in Christ are already in Heaven waiting to follow Christ into battle, too. For one, there is no rising up of the dead mentioned in the Olivet discourse or Revelation at Christ's Second Coming. Second, as mentioned before, the saints are already in Heaven way back at the fifth seal and they did not rise up yet again for the Second Coming of Christ. These dead in Christ have been in Heaven with God for quite some time already.
#6. Understanding Differences Between the Pre-Trib Rapture & the 2nd Coming.:
At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:
• Hebrews 9:28 ESV
Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth
• Revelation 1:7
Hebrews 9:28 KJV - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
To put it to you another way, the above passage here is talking about Christ appearing a second time without sin being imputed to him (like with his first appearance), but unto the purpose of salvation. For Christ's second appearance here is dealing with salvation and not judgment; Which perfectly fits the context of discussion in Hebrews chapter 9.
For the context of Hebrews 9 deals with Christ entering the Holy Place once and for all. For the description of the rites and sacrifices of the law were far inferior to the dignity and perfection of the sacrifice of Christ. For Christ is our mediator and redemption from sin; In other words, Christ is our salvation. Which is the topic of discussion mentioned in verse 28.
And here is the same passage in the ESV.
Hebrews 9:28 ESV - "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
Which again says that Christ is appearing not to deal with sin but to SAVE those who are waiting for him.
Now, your probably thinking to yourself, how is that a problem, right? Is not Christ saving the elect at His Second Coming?
Well, at Christ's Second Coming, Jesus is not so much saving the elect from the events at Armageddon, but He is gathering them to fight there. Which means the saints taken up at Christ's Second Coming will be partaking in executing Christ's Judgment upon the Earth. Which is not really the same thing as Christ appearing so as to save His elect from something. How so?
• Luke 17:34-37
In other words, at the Second Coming of Christ, the elect (or the fowls or the eagles) will be gathered to battle those who remain on the Earth or gather to the supper of the Great God to eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains. This of course is speaking metaphorically. The saints are not going to really eat people, but they are going to defeat the wicked people of this world in the final battle with Christ.
• Hebrews 9:28 ESV
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth
• Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Hebrews 9:28 KJV - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
To put it to you another way, the above passage here is talking about Christ appearing a second time without sin being imputed to him (like with his first appearance), but unto the purpose of salvation. For Christ's second appearance here is dealing with salvation and not judgment; Which perfectly fits the context of discussion in Hebrews chapter 9.
For the context of Hebrews 9 deals with Christ entering the Holy Place once and for all. For the description of the rites and sacrifices of the law were far inferior to the dignity and perfection of the sacrifice of Christ. For Christ is our mediator and redemption from sin; In other words, Christ is our salvation. Which is the topic of discussion mentioned in verse 28.
And here is the same passage in the ESV.
Hebrews 9:28 ESV - "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
Which again says that Christ is appearing not to deal with sin but to SAVE those who are waiting for him.
Now, your probably thinking to yourself, how is that a problem, right? Is not Christ saving the elect at His Second Coming?
Well, at Christ's Second Coming, Jesus is not so much saving the elect from the events at Armageddon, but He is gathering them to fight there. Which means the saints taken up at Christ's Second Coming will be partaking in executing Christ's Judgment upon the Earth. Which is not really the same thing as Christ appearing so as to save His elect from something. How so?
• Luke 17:34-37
"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
And they answered and said unto him,
"Where, Lord?"
And he said unto them,
"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
• Matthew 24:28And they answered and said unto him,
"Where, Lord?"
And he said unto them,
"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying
"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
• Jude 1:14"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
In other words, at the Second Coming of Christ, the elect (or the fowls or the eagles) will be gathered to battle those who remain on the Earth or gather to the supper of the Great God to eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains. This of course is speaking metaphorically. The saints are not going to really eat people, but they are going to defeat the wicked people of this world in the final battle with Christ.
