When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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When does the rapture occur?
After the Great Tribulation.
After the 'Two Witnesses' / 'Trumpet Events'.
At the Second Coming of Christ.
Before the 'Wrath of God'.
After the Great Tribulation.
After the 'Two Witnesses' / 'Trumpet Events'.
At the Second Coming of Christ.
Before the 'Wrath of God'.
After the 'Two Witnesses' / 'Trumpet Events'. YES
At the Second Coming of Christ. NO
Before the 'Wrath of God'. NO (unless you are referring to final judgment/condemnation wrath, then maybe)
The rapture, as most view it (1 Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:50-52) is the last event on this earth. Immediately after the heaven and earth are consumed, burned up, with all the works in them. Christ is already back on earth and has been for 1,000 + years. It is GOD the Father who brings those who sleep in Jesus, vs 14. Jesus reigns only with the martyrs, the rest of the dead live not again until the 1,000 years are over, Rev 20:4-6. This is pretty darn clear.
Dear Brother, you are new to this thread and site so you likely haven't read all the many posts which totally disprove the Rapture being located before the Tribulation. The Rapture theory is an absolute scam with ZERO Biblical evidence. All you have is man's attempt to alter a teaching they don't like into one more appealing using their own logic rather than following the Word of God.
Your chart is pretty, but wrong. Your reasoning is faulty. Christ clearly and precisely locates HIS return AFTER the Tribulation and there is no teaching inconsistent with this teaching. The only problem with the Post Trib view is lack of understanding by those who reject it.
- There is NO passage that locates ANY return of Christ BEFORE the Tribulation
- There is NO passage that discusses the Church or anyone else being taken to heaven to escape the Tribulation
- There is NO passage that places God's Wrath within the Tribulation (It comes after)
- There is NO passage where Jesus is identified as the member of the Trinity who translates any living person
- There is NO passage that teaches the concept of a "Tribulation Era" Saint vs. any other Saint
- There is NO passage that teaches a great revival after the so called Rapture (The opposite is taught)
- Christ NEVER gives the Rapture lesson
- Christ promises Tribulation (and death) for His followers. HE never reverses this teaching for the End Times Church.
- The Revelation of Jesus Christ doesn't contain any teaching of Christ Rapturing anybody.
Your chart is pretty, but wrong. Your reasoning is faulty. Christ clearly and precisely locates HIS return AFTER the Tribulation and there is no teaching inconsistent with this teaching. The only problem with the Post Trib view is lack of understanding by those who reject it.
This is final judgment/condemnation wrath - NOT TRIBULATION WRATH. If you study the use of the word "Tribulation" it is used 22 times. 21 Times it specifically applies to believers being persecuted by the wicked for their faith. The other time, God repays with Tribulation the wicked who have been persecuting us. This is Post-Tribulation Wrath.
Therefore, the Great Tribulation is Christian Persecution on Steroids. All the evidence in the Bible supports this view. We have a Great Multitude in Heaven who come out of Great Tribulation. The only way they could get there is by death during the Tribulation which is exactly what Jesus teaches happens to His followers.
The context is clear the Wrath used in the verses you cited is final judgment wrath. The opposite of Salvation is the Judgment Wrath that comes to the wicked who did not accept Jesus/God. They are cast into the Lake of Fire.
Therefore, the Great Tribulation is Christian Persecution on Steroids. All the evidence in the Bible supports this view. We have a Great Multitude in Heaven who come out of Great Tribulation. The only way they could get there is by death during the Tribulation which is exactly what Jesus teaches happens to His followers.
The context is clear the Wrath used in the verses you cited is final judgment wrath. The opposite of Salvation is the Judgment Wrath that comes to the wicked who did not accept Jesus/God. They are cast into the Lake of Fire.
The Day of the Lord begins AFTER the Tribulation has ended. The timing is clear.
Mat 24:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Ezek 38:
18 "And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," says the Lord God, "that My fury will show in My face. 19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.' 21 I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains," says the Lord God. "Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Christ appears when GOG comes against the Land of Israel. The Tribulation is OVER before the above passages. NOTHING TELLS US that all the seals, trumpets and bowls are located within the Great Tribulation. That view is a false assumption.
Mat 24:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Ezek 38:
18 "And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," says the Lord God, "that My fury will show in My face. 19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.' 21 I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains," says the Lord God. "Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Christ appears when GOG comes against the Land of Israel. The Tribulation is OVER before the above passages. NOTHING TELLS US that all the seals, trumpets and bowls are located within the Great Tribulation. That view is a false assumption.
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You make several false statements based on several false assumptions. Here are your false assumptions which lead to your false conclusions.
1. The Vial or Bowl Judgments which contain the Wrath of God is poured out during the Great Tribulation.
2. That Christ returns during the Great Tribulation.
3. That all of the dead in Christ return with Him.
4. That the general resurrection is part of Christ's return.
So what is taught?
Christ has appeared by the 6th Seal and returned by the 7th trumpet.
Christ clearly states that He returns AFTER the Tribulation and He never provides any timing that is before the Tribulation. Further, Christ never tells us that He goes back to heaven after He returns or takes anyone with Him.
Jude tells us that Christ returns with ten thousands of His Saints. This is a finite number. If we are to believe Christ returns with ALL SAINTS, we would have been told ALL SAINTS. Further, Rev 20:4-6 teaches that Christ lives and reigns with the martyrs from the Tribulation and that the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are up.
When Christ returns the word "Gather(s)" is used. Both Jesus and Paul use this word. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly states that it is God the Father bringing, not sending, those who die in Jesus. The timing is NOT given here. Also, 1 Cor 15:50-52 does not mention Christ, any angels or any return of anybody with the translation of living. Thus, it is pure conjecture when the living are translated. However, logic would dictate that this has to happen for sure immediately prior to the earth being burned up. A Pre-Trib timing makes no sense whatsoever.
The general resurrection happens at the end. This is taught throughout the scriptures. The general resurrection includes both wicked and righteous as we see from Dan 12 and John 6.
1. The Vial or Bowl Judgments which contain the Wrath of God is poured out during the Great Tribulation.
2. That Christ returns during the Great Tribulation.
3. That all of the dead in Christ return with Him.
4. That the general resurrection is part of Christ's return.
So what is taught?
Christ has appeared by the 6th Seal and returned by the 7th trumpet.
Christ clearly states that He returns AFTER the Tribulation and He never provides any timing that is before the Tribulation. Further, Christ never tells us that He goes back to heaven after He returns or takes anyone with Him.
Jude tells us that Christ returns with ten thousands of His Saints. This is a finite number. If we are to believe Christ returns with ALL SAINTS, we would have been told ALL SAINTS. Further, Rev 20:4-6 teaches that Christ lives and reigns with the martyrs from the Tribulation and that the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are up.
When Christ returns the word "Gather(s)" is used. Both Jesus and Paul use this word. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly states that it is God the Father bringing, not sending, those who die in Jesus. The timing is NOT given here. Also, 1 Cor 15:50-52 does not mention Christ, any angels or any return of anybody with the translation of living. Thus, it is pure conjecture when the living are translated. However, logic would dictate that this has to happen for sure immediately prior to the earth being burned up. A Pre-Trib timing makes no sense whatsoever.
The general resurrection happens at the end. This is taught throughout the scriptures. The general resurrection includes both wicked and righteous as we see from Dan 12 and John 6.
Check out the Greek.
The Greek word for "regeneration" is paligge, which means "re-creation," which is
the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13) where there is no death (Rev 21:4) because it is eternity.
Then the Greek word en, translated "in" in your translation, means "in" or "at."
However, other translations use "at," in agreement with Ro 8:21-23,
where creation's "liberation from its bondage to decay" at the new heavens and new earth
occurs in conjunction with the "redemption of our bodies (resurrection), which
1Th 4:16-17 locates in conjuction with the rapture.
In addition, certain and unequivocal NT teaching allows for no return of Christ
before the Final Judgment (Heb 9:27-28), nor
before the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is regeneration (re-creation)
of the new heavens and new earth.
So certain and unequivocal NT teaching locates in conjunction with one another
Christ's second coming,
the rapture,
the resurrection,
the final judgment, and
the new heavens and new earth of the regeneration,
which allows for no temporal period after Christ returns.
No, the text clearly states judgment/governance at the regeneration,
in agreement with Ro 8:21-23, which occurs in conjunction with the resurrection.
Yes, at the second coming in conjunction with the rapture, resurrection and final judgment,
there is eternal life in the new heavens and new earth where there is no death (Rev 21:4)
because it is eternity. . .and also no temporal period for the same reason.
The Greek word for "regeneration" is paligge, which means "re-creation," which is
the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13) where there is no death (Rev 21:4) because it is eternity.
Then the Greek word en, translated "in" in your translation, means "in" or "at."
However, other translations use "at," in agreement with Ro 8:21-23,
where creation's "liberation from its bondage to decay" at the new heavens and new earth
occurs in conjunction with the "redemption of our bodies (resurrection), which
1Th 4:16-17 locates in conjuction with the rapture.
In addition, certain and unequivocal NT teaching allows for no return of Christ
before the Final Judgment (Heb 9:27-28), nor
before the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is regeneration (re-creation)
of the new heavens and new earth.
So certain and unequivocal NT teaching locates in conjunction with one another
Christ's second coming,
the rapture,
the resurrection,
the final judgment, and
the new heavens and new earth of the regeneration,
which allows for no temporal period after Christ returns.
No, the text clearly states judgment/governance at the regeneration,
in agreement with Ro 8:21-23, which occurs in conjunction with the resurrection.
Yes, at the second coming in conjunction with the rapture, resurrection and final judgment,
there is eternal life in the new heavens and new earth where there is no death (Rev 21:4)
because it is eternity. . .and also no temporal period for the same reason.
Jesus reigns now over everything, until he puts down all rule, authority and power,
when he will then hand over the kingdom to the Father at the new heavens and new earth.
Yes, at the regeneration (see post #287 above), which is in conjunction with the Final Judgment,
where the saints will judge with Jesus.
Addressed in post #287 above,
showing the meaning of the Greek en as "at," and the Greek paligge (restoration) as "re-creation,"
which is necessarily the new heavens and new earth of eternity, because there is no death (Rev 21:4)
There is no temporal period in timeless eternity.
He hands over the kingdom at the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth.
when he will then hand over the kingdom to the Father at the new heavens and new earth.
Yes, at the regeneration (see post #287 above), which is in conjunction with the Final Judgment,
where the saints will judge with Jesus.
Addressed in post #287 above,
showing the meaning of the Greek en as "at," and the Greek paligge (restoration) as "re-creation,"
which is necessarily the new heavens and new earth of eternity, because there is no death (Rev 21:4)
There is no temporal period in timeless eternity.
He hands over the kingdom at the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth.
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No, the majority of the saints are killed by the 4th seal (with the enforcement of the Mark). There are several reasons for this in Scripture. For the saints cry out for vengeance by the 5th seal and by the sixth seal you have the moon turning blood red and the sky going black, which is also the time labeled as the Wrath (Which we are supposed to be saved from).
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Look at Scripture again. Pay very close attention and you will notice that when the moon turns blood red and the sky turns to darkness is the same time as the sixth seal or the beginning of the Day of the Lord. For 2nd Thessalonians 2 tells us that the Day of the Lord (Rendered as Day of Christ in the KJV) will not begin until there is a great falling away from the faith and the Anti Christ shows that he is God within the future Jewish temple.
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Care to give your scriptural support for the majority of saints to be killed by the 4th seal? Not saying you're wrong, I just want to see your "several reasons."
Agreed, the Saints are crying for vengeance in the 5th seal so therefore, Christ could not have come yet because we know His Wrath comes with Him.
"Wrath that we are supposed to be saved from???" You do realize that most of the Christian world is destroyed (not raptured) during the Tribulation, don't you? That's your Great Multitude. When Christ comes, he GATHERS His Elect. Therefore they are gathered together and kept from the wrath going on elsewhere.
Agreed, the Saints are crying for vengeance in the 5th seal so therefore, Christ could not have come yet because we know His Wrath comes with Him.
"Wrath that we are supposed to be saved from???" You do realize that most of the Christian world is destroyed (not raptured) during the Tribulation, don't you? That's your Great Multitude. When Christ comes, he GATHERS His Elect. Therefore they are gathered together and kept from the wrath going on elsewhere.
If you look even closer at the passage which I know by heart, you will observe something else. Let's do it together starting with Rev 6:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
We see in the above that the "DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME" but we are not told HE COMES at this point, right? Now let's compare to Mat 24:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I went and changed to red the text that agrees in both passages. We see that vs. 12-13 of Rev 6 agrees with Mat 24:29. Let just look at those two passages again:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Mat 24:29 starts by telling us that the Tribulation is over. Thus everything that happens next both in Mat 24 and in Rev 6 happen AFTER the Tribulation is over. We have no wrath of God found before this in Mat 24 or before this in Rev 6.
Therefore the wrath of God is NOT IN THE TRIBULATION. IT COMES AFTER JUST AS CHRIST COMES AFTER.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
We see in the above that the "DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME" but we are not told HE COMES at this point, right? Now let's compare to Mat 24:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I went and changed to red the text that agrees in both passages. We see that vs. 12-13 of Rev 6 agrees with Mat 24:29. Let just look at those two passages again:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Mat 24:29 starts by telling us that the Tribulation is over. Thus everything that happens next both in Mat 24 and in Rev 6 happen AFTER the Tribulation is over. We have no wrath of God found before this in Mat 24 or before this in Rev 6.
Therefore the wrath of God is NOT IN THE TRIBULATION. IT COMES AFTER JUST AS CHRIST COMES AFTER.
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The Fourth Seal
• Revelation 6:7-8
The Fourth Seal Opened
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
• Revelation 13:15b
And ... that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Commentary: - Revelation 6:7-8
And when he had opened the fourth seal... Death... was... over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
In Revelation 6:7-8 with the breaking of the Fourth Seal:
Authority of death is given to work thru the anti-christ's rule to kill a fourth part of the Earth; For the anti-christ will kill you by the sword with his military might. He will kill you with hunger by the fact that you will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark. He will kill you with death by either the taking or the refusing of the Mark (i.e. You will die spiritually if you take the Mark or you will die physically if you do not take the Mark). He will kill you with his beasts or his loyal followers in various nations thru out the Earth, too.
For the term “beast” is used to describe human governments in the book of Daniel (chapters 7 & 8) and the government ran by the Antichrist and false prophet is depicted as beasts rising from the sea and earth in Revelation 13.
So after the abomination of desolation is set up in the Jewish Temple at the midpoint of the Tribulation, the lethal enforcement of the Mark will then go into effect and thereby bring forth one of the highest death tolls in human history. This is the breaking of the Fourth Seal and it is the starting point of the Great Tribulation.
• Revelation 6:9-11
The Fifth Seal Opened
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little while, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
• Revelation 20:4
And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands
• Revelation 7:14 and Revelation 7:9
14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" ... 9 "A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"
Signs Leading Up to the Day of the Lord:
The Sixth Seal:
(Part 1 - Sun goes dark, moon turns blood red, and a great earthquake, etc.):
(After These Signs The Days of Vengeance Ends):
• Revelation 6:12-13
The Sixth Seal Opened:
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
• Matthew 24:29-30a
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
• Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
• Luke 21:25-26
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
• Acts 2:20
• Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Admonishments on the "Day of the Lord" before the "Second Coming":
(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT
• 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):
Description of the Day of the Lord:
• Zephaniah 1:14-15
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
• Zechariah 14:1 NLT
The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):
The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):
• Revelation 6:14-17
Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:
And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?
• Luke 17:26-33
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Commentary - Luke 17:26-33
Verse 33 tells us:
"Whosever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
This is talking about the abomination of desolations and the taking of the mark of the beast. Those who seek to save their life by returning back home will lose their lives spiritually. For family members who will have already taken the mark will persuade their returning family members to submit to worshipping the beast and his image. Those who lose their lives (or be martyred) for the sake of Christ by refusing the mark will end up saving their eternal souls.
• Revelation 6:7-8
The Fourth Seal Opened
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
And ... that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Commentary: - Revelation 6:7-8
And when he had opened the fourth seal... Death... was... over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
In Revelation 6:7-8 with the breaking of the Fourth Seal:
Authority of death is given to work thru the anti-christ's rule to kill a fourth part of the Earth; For the anti-christ will kill you by the sword with his military might. He will kill you with hunger by the fact that you will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark. He will kill you with death by either the taking or the refusing of the Mark (i.e. You will die spiritually if you take the Mark or you will die physically if you do not take the Mark). He will kill you with his beasts or his loyal followers in various nations thru out the Earth, too.
For the term “beast” is used to describe human governments in the book of Daniel (chapters 7 & 8) and the government ran by the Antichrist and false prophet is depicted as beasts rising from the sea and earth in Revelation 13.
So after the abomination of desolation is set up in the Jewish Temple at the midpoint of the Tribulation, the lethal enforcement of the Mark will then go into effect and thereby bring forth one of the highest death tolls in human history. This is the breaking of the Fourth Seal and it is the starting point of the Great Tribulation.
• Revelation 6:9-11
The Fifth Seal Opened
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little while, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands
14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" ... 9 "A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"
The Sixth Seal:
(Part 1 - Sun goes dark, moon turns blood red, and a great earthquake, etc.):
(After These Signs The Days of Vengeance Ends):
• Revelation 6:12-13
The Sixth Seal Opened:
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
• Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
• Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
• Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):
Description of the Day of the Lord:
• Zephaniah 1:14-15
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Watch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you!
The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):
The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):
• Revelation 6:14-17
Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:
And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Commentary - Luke 17:26-33
Verse 33 tells us:
"Whosever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
This is talking about the abomination of desolations and the taking of the mark of the beast. Those who seek to save their life by returning back home will lose their lives spiritually. For family members who will have already taken the mark will persuade their returning family members to submit to worshipping the beast and his image. Those who lose their lives (or be martyred) for the sake of Christ by refusing the mark will end up saving their eternal souls.
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Are you a Greek scholar...because I am Not..
But here are many translations...translated by those with wide knowledge in greek.
New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
New Living Translation
Jesus replied, "I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
New American Standard Bible
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
King James Bible
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
International Standard Version
Jesus told them, "I tell all of you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Of all those translation...one thing is certain...the regeneration....is WHEN THE SON OF MAN SITS ON HIS GLORIOUS THRONE...
Now when the Son sits on his glorious throne...those who followed him will ALSO sit on twelve thrones..JUDGING/GOVERNING the twelve tribes of Israel...
This period shows The Son still have the authority...those who followed him have been given authority...
This is the period in question....When the Son still possess the authority.
,
Hebrew 9:27-28 deals with reality that after death...what awaits is judgement...
You are just trying to fit your teaching in this...
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Now followed that with MAt 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I hope you can see clearly...
Jesus will remain in Heaven..
Then when he comes back on earth..he shall sit on his glorious throne..with the twelve... and the twelve shall judge the 12 tribes of Israel...
The question is how long will the twelve judge the twelve tribes of Israel?
I agree on some of your points... for the most it No.
For someone who insist on certain unequivocal teaching of the NT...you are quoting Revalation, the book by which is subjected to many private interpretations...
having said that..
Why did Paul said... 1 cor 15:25
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
For HE MUST reign, TILL????
When is this Till? obviously not Mat 19:28..coz that period is when the Son Sits on his glorious throne...
How long is that period?
which New heavens are you talking about? Is it before the New heavens of Isa 65 or after it?
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Did Paul said For Christ is reigning or He Must reign?
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Why do you think paul said ...HE MUST???? instead of he is reigning?
If Jesus is reigning now over everything...why such chaos in the world? Would His reign bring froth peace...???
Your every response is against you...you said here...The saints will judge with Jesus...
The question again...How long will they judge with Jesus and what happens after that period?
Is that your uncertain/private interpretation of Revelation?
How long will those who followed Jesus will judge the twelve tribes...1 hr, 1 day, 2 days?
Let me quote you the same phrase:
Isa_25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
The one of 2Pe 3:13.
Yes, he must reign from the right hand of God until all enemies are put under his feet.
And we are seated with him
Nope. . .because all his enemies are not yet under his feet.
He must reign until they are.
He did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
They judge with Jesus now.-, and until the end of the final judgment of the world.
We have no authorization from certain and unequivocal NT teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming, which I do not think the NT writers forgot to tell us about, or even more
ridiculous, did not even know about.
We have no authorization from certain and unequivocal NT teaching for both glorified and natural
bodies being on the earth at the same time.
This is a bizarre Stephen Spielberg scenario, nowhere even mentioned in NT teaching.
This scenario requires duplication of many things which certain NT teaching presents as the same.
The NT does not say God has only one Spirit,
and, therefore, we are authorized to say that he has two.
These are notions of men from his private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
so pleasing to his fancy that he thinks they come from God.
[/quote]
Keeping in mind this is a prophetic riddles, which others validly interpret to mean something different.
This is your authorize private and uncertain interpretations of prophetic riddles,
which interpretation is no where stated in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
I see that as a recipe for error, and make an end to learning where the NT makes an end to certain teaching.
Please show where a 1000-year temporal period after Christ's coming is presented in certain NT teaching,
apart from your private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Yes, he must reign from the right hand of God until all enemies are put under his feet.
And we are seated with him
Nope. . .because all his enemies are not yet under his feet.
He must reign until they are.
He did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
They judge with Jesus now.-, and until the end of the final judgment of the world.
We have no authorization from certain and unequivocal NT teaching for a 1000-year temporal period
after the second coming, which I do not think the NT writers forgot to tell us about, or even more
ridiculous, did not even know about.
We have no authorization from certain and unequivocal NT teaching for both glorified and natural
bodies being on the earth at the same time.
This is a bizarre Stephen Spielberg scenario, nowhere even mentioned in NT teaching.
This scenario requires duplication of many things which certain NT teaching presents as the same.
The NT does not say God has only one Spirit,
and, therefore, we are authorized to say that he has two.
These are notions of men from his private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
so pleasing to his fancy that he thinks they come from God.
[/quote]
Keeping in mind this is a prophetic riddles, which others validly interpret to mean something different.
This is your authorize private and uncertain interpretations of prophetic riddles,
which interpretation is no where stated in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
I see that as a recipe for error, and make an end to learning where the NT makes an end to certain teaching.
Please show where a 1000-year temporal period after Christ's coming is presented in certain NT teaching,
apart from your private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Is it the same as Isa 65:17, before it or after it?
2 Pet 3:13 is prophetic in nature for it deals of future events.
you are seated with him literally?
so those who followed him mentioned in Matthew 19:28 are judging now the twelve tribes of Israel?
so when will he stop reigning? or when all enemies will be put under his feet?
since there is a period of reign...Matthew 19:28 shows that He is still reigning..so Matthew 19:28 deals while the Son of Man is still reigning...
The first time he came Yes He bring sword...Do you suggest war in the regeneration?
The disciples judge with Jesus now??????????talking about personal interpretation.
You do not need to prove a 1000 years ...you just need to understand that there is a period wherein the Son of Man shall sit on David's throne (luke 1:32) and those who followed him seated with him judging the twelve tribes of Israel (mat 19:28, Luke 22:30) .
2 Pet 3:13 is prophetic in nature for it deals of future events.
you are seated with him literally?
so those who followed him mentioned in Matthew 19:28 are judging now the twelve tribes of Israel?
so when will he stop reigning? or when all enemies will be put under his feet?
since there is a period of reign...Matthew 19:28 shows that He is still reigning..so Matthew 19:28 deals while the Son of Man is still reigning...
The first time he came Yes He bring sword...Do you suggest war in the regeneration?
The disciples judge with Jesus now??????????talking about personal interpretation.
You do not need to prove a 1000 years ...you just need to understand that there is a period wherein the Son of Man shall sit on David's throne (luke 1:32) and those who followed him seated with him judging the twelve tribes of Israel (mat 19:28, Luke 22:30) .