When does the rapture occur?

[watcher2013]

Case in point:

No not really, it is just choosing between responses: Shall I choose to say:
It is a good thing that something is driving my theology/hermeneutic in comparison to your theology/hermeneutic which crashed to total trash.

I choose to say ..what can I say....thank you...

See Eph 2:6, 1:20.

You do not have a NT understanding of "heavenlies" (heavenly realms) where
in the exaltation of Christ and in the Christian's union with the exalted Christ,
issues are involved that pertain to the divine realm and that are worked out
in and from that realm:
1) God's eternal eschatological purpose (3:11),
2) the titanic conflict between God and the powerful spiritual forces arrayed against him which come into focus
in the history of redemption (1:3),
3) where in union with the exalted Christ, Christians have already been made beneficiaries of every spiritual blessing
that belongs to and comes from the heavenly realm (as in Mt 19:28, etc.).

The purpose of Christ's exaltation to the heavenly realm, and his elevation over all other powers and titles
is for his rule over them, for the sake of the church (1:20-22).
Those who have been made alive with Christ share in Christ's exaltation and enthronement in heaven (2:6).
Therefore, by the gathering of Gentiles and Jews into one body of Christ (the church),
God triumphantly displays his manifold wisdom to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (3:11).
As a result, the spiritual struggle of the church here and now is not so much against flesh and blood as against
the great spiritual forces that war against God in heaven (6:12).

Let us really understand what is the verse all about..
Eph 2:6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Is this literal or a figure of speech?

1. your(physical body and spirit) are still on earth...so not talking of physically and not spiritually sitting NOW on Heavenly places...

2. Are we literally or even spiritually (separating the spirit from the body) sitting in heavenly places???

It is like laying your treasure in Heaven... Mat 6:20 (it is a figure of speech)

Note that God's manifold wisdom is displayed in the church, not in some temporal kingdom after the second
coming of Christ.


Please show it clearly stated in NT teaching.

There is only one kingdom...when Christ has put down all authority and Power he shall delivered the same kingdom to the Father.

read back again response 312

 

[Hoffco]

How do you figure that??

The Trib is OVER before anything listed below starts!

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Trib is over, then the sun will be darkened, etc. The Wrath comes even after this. There is no mid-Trib here. Everything happens AFTER. Why??? Because the Tribulation has NOTHING to do with God's wrath or the Wrath of the Lamb. The Tribulation is heightened persecution of Israel and/or Believers just as Jesus describes and it includes deception of the False One.

I actually agree with you, the tribulation of the Church is over at what is falsely called , THE MID point of the 7 yr. tribulation. I called it the MID TRI view, point, because that is what it is FALSELY called. I believe the Rapture happens after the "man of sin" makes ,reaffirms, a treaty between Israel and the Arab nations. and the 70th wk. of Daniel begins, and after the first 3 and one half yrs of peace for Israel, Then Jesus returns to the sky, raises the "GOOD" dead and we, Christians, who are living "GOOD", are changed and raptured to the sky to meet Jesus. Then, the 144,000 Jews saved and sealed at the time of the rapture, and left on earth , they will have tribulation and be killed for Jesus. At the end of the 70th wk. of Daniel. We all come back and the 144,000 are raised and we all reign with Jesus on earth for 1,000 yrs. Love to all, Hoffco ps. Jesus does have a Spiritual rule NOW from heaven. I agree with Ukorin.

 

[Elin]

Elin, you have made a BIG assumption on the ruling of Christ and the Apostles, being NOW; I do not believe your assumption can hold water. Your reading into Acts 1:6 3:23 Mt. 19:28 Rom.8:10-23 a very unnatural meaning, it is a
FORCED meaning, braking the good rule of allowing a good, natural, honest flow of the narratives, stories. You destroy the words of Rev. especial, Rev.20:1-7. "one thousand years". SHAME,on you. SORRY, Still, Love ya, Hoffco God Bless!

Yu failed to address Eph 2:6, 1:20.

 

[watcher2013]

Paul presents the rapture as immediately following the resurrection.

verse please...

There will be no death in the new heavens and new earth.

the question is after resurrection? Which do you say is the end of time?

Those who are alive when Jesus comes will not be raptured until the dead saints rise first, so that no saint misses the rapture.

The Idea of the question is the dead shall rise first....showing a period between resurrection and the catching away...

Jesus said they will rise to be condemned, while the saints will rise to live.

How long is the judgement?

So you do not believe the NT?

I believe in the NT...Not your interpretation...


Yes, but he doesn't wait until then, he is also sitting on it now.[/QUOTE]

 

[Elin]

You do not have a NT understanding of "heavenlies" (heavenly realms) where
in the exaltation of Christ and in the Christian's union with the exalted Christ,
issues are involved that pertain to the divine realm and that are worked out
in and from that realm:
1) God's eternal eschatological purpose (3:11),
2) the titanic conflict between God and the powerful spiritual forces arrayed against him which come into focus
in the history of redemption (1:3),
3) where in union with the exalted Christ, Christians have already been made beneficiaries of every spiritual blessing
that belongs to and comes from the heavenly realm (as in Mt 19:28, etc.).

The purpose of Christ's exaltation to the heavenly realm, and his elevation over all other powers and titles
is for his rule over them, for the sake of the church (1:20-22).
Those who have been made alive with Christ share in Christ's exaltation and enthronement in heaven (2:6).
Therefore, by the gathering of Gentiles and Jews into one body of Christ (the church),
God triumphantly displays his manifold wisdom to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (3:11).
As a result, the spiritual struggle of the church here and now is not so much against flesh and blood as against
the great spiritual forces that war against God in heaven (6:12).

Note that God's manifold wisdom is displayed in the church, not in some temporal kingdom after the second
coming of Christ.

Let us really understand what is the verse all about..
Eph 2:6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Is this literal or a figure of speech?

Previously addressed, above.
Study it.

It is like laying your treasure in Heaven... Mat 6:20 (it is a figure of speech)

No, you just don't believe it.

Both Mt 6:20 and Eph 2:6, 1:20 are actual existing spiritual reality, not just figures,
as the OT sacrifices were figures of Christ's sacrifice, but were not the spiritual reality of it.

You could really use some good Biblical teaching.

There is only one kingdom...when Christ has put down all authority and Power he shall delivered the same kingdom to the Father.

Agreed. . .and it was set up at Christ's first coming during the last Roman empire (Da 2:44),
and lasts forever, throughout eternity.
Those in Christ are in that kingdom now.

 

[Atwood]

The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for
the coming of the Lord is at hand.
Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold,
the judge is standing before the doors.


1 Th 4: end: "harpagesometha" = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).
(1 Th 5: start: Day of the Lord, Tribulation.)

There are many debates among Christians over eschatology and the relative timing of the Rapture, whether it is at the same time as Christ's return to earth to take over, or not.
-- This does not bother me; but it does bother me when someone gets on a high horse, acts superior, and accuses Christians of heresy based on such an eschatology disagreement or murmurs.

However else one figures out matters, make this a nail in your system:
Christ's return is imminent, to be expected at any time; perhaps even while you are reading this.

The imminence of Christ's coming is a mainstay of PreTribism, but there are other explanations:

1) PostObtuse-ism: Because of the obtuseness of Christians, Daniel's 70th week (or the Trib) may have already passed, but the Christans were too obtuse to notice it, enabling the PostToasties theory.

2) Schwarzenegger Theorum: Daniel's 70th week (or the Trib) happened at AD 70, so it is long past (preterminatorism).

3) Schmoozle Hypothesis: Dan's 70th Week (or the Trib or Rev 4-18) is a nebulous set of spiritual pictures, having no literal significance, but one should schmoozle with it.

Thus, figure it out the best you can, but do expect His Return now.

 

[Atwood]

Christ is surely enthroned at the right hand of the Father. His rule is spiritual, as is His Kingdom.

What is a spiritual reign? You are saying that the reign of Christ has no physical results, but all the spirits of the universe submit to him willingly now? The Lord has charge of the spirits of believers, but cares nothing about their bodies, which are not to be presented to him for service?

What is a spiritual kingdom?

 

[Atwood]

Agreed. . .and it was set up at Christ's first coming during the last Roman empire (Da 2:44),
and lasts forever, throughout eternity.
Those in Christ are in that kingdom now.

How do you know that there is but one Kingdom?
How do you know it was set up at Christ's first coming?


Dan 2: "And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."

Who are those kings? When did this kingdom break in pieces & consume all these kingdoms?

 

[PlainWord]

I have no confirmation in Scripture that this is Islam. I just believe what Scripture says with a normal plain straight forward reading. The person who rides the horse is called Death. Then it says,

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill"

Did you catch that? It says, power was given to him over the 4th part of the Earth to KILL. So this guy has power to KILL a 4th part of the Earth. Don't understand how you can't see that.

Again, it does not say 1/4 of the earth is killed. It says "power was given to THEM over a 4th part of the earth..." So they have power over 1/4 of the earth. 1/4 of the earth is their domain and the percentage they control. The Muslim nations make up 22% of the world population thus they already have power over 1/4 of the earth. The text goes on to say, "to kill" then lists the methods by which they kill. So they have power over 1/4 of the earth to kill within that 1/4 of earth by the means listed, WAR, STARVATION, SICKNESS OR DISEASE AND THROUGH AND BY THEIR GOVERNMENTS meaning they kill as a matter of law.

Once you see that the Green Horse (Pale) is the Islamic World and you see that they control 1/4 of the world then you understand that they don't wipe out themselves. They will kill as many Christians and Jews as they can find which we are now seeing with ISIS, but they are not able to kill 1/4 of the world unless they use nukes or chemical weapons on a massive scale.

 

[PlainWord]

Jason,

The Pre-Trib Rapture is alluded to by Jesus and it is taught by Paul.

If you were to read the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Which *coughs* follows the Olivet Discourse End Times discussion), you would see that the point of the Parable was that the Bride Groom was going to come at a time that these virgins did not know about. Only those who are ready and waiting at any moment were invited to the wedding.

Now, what is interesting is that these virgins entered into the wedding and the door was shut.

"The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).

Jesus does not allude to a pre-Trib timing and Paul certainly NEVER provides a Pre-Trib timing!! The only timing either of them provide is Post Trib or Post Man of Sin. I strongly urge you to prove, not speculate using a parable, the pre-Trib timing. You see, God is not the author of confusion. If Christ were coming twice, once before and once after the trib, we would have been told. The only timing we are taught is Post Trib.

As for the wedding, you've incorrectly located that too. The wedding doesn't happen until the very end. The Bride is not exclusively the Church as many falsely teach. The Bride is ALL THOSE WHO ENTER HEAVEN, including saved Jews and OT Saints. The wedding supper occurs after the marriage and the Bride is the New Jerusalem which God sends to earth. See Rev 21. Since the Bride is the New Jerusalem which hasn't even been created yet, the wedding certainly cannot occur before there is a Bride.

"Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

It amazes me how much people either twist or misunderstand scripture to fit their view. If you start out with a false premise - Pre-Trib Rapture - you end up having to alter so much of everything else so in the end, the Word and Truth is hardly recognizable.

Don't have time to address the rest of your post as I have to run. BBL.

 

[Elin]

How do you know that there is but one Kingdom?

Because the Biblical and certain interpretation (Da 2:44) of the prophetic riddle (Da 2:37-43)
given by Daniel states that the kingdom which God established then shall never be destroyed,
it lasts forever.

Nowhere does Jesus teach two kingdoms of God.
Nowhere do we find two kingdoms in certain and unequivocal NT apostolic teaching.
That is a multiplying of things which are the same.

Two kingdoms are derived from private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which adds to NT teaching our own unauthorized human assumptions.

How do you know it was set up at Christ's first coming?

Because that is the time of "those kings."

Dan 2: "And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up
a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and
it shall stand forever."

Who are those kings?

Atwood,

You are not comprehending that Da 2:37-43 is fulfilled, nor what the text is stating.

"Those kings" are the four kings of Da 2:37-43, of Babylonia (626-539 BC), Medo-Persia (539-330 BC),
Greece (330-63 BC) and Rome (63 BC - 476 AD).

God established his kingdom during the last Roman empire at the first coming of Christ.

When did this kingdom break in pieces & consume all these kingdoms?

You misunderstand the grammatical construction of the sentence.

/---It---- / shall break in pieces and consume / all these kingdoms./

/subject / ----------------verb----------------- / ------object------- /

The kingdom itself does not break, it breaks all these kingdoms in pieces and it consumes all these kingdoms.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

make this a nail in your system:
Christ's return is imminent, to be expected at any time; perhaps even while you are reading this.

Not according to 2Th 2:1-8.

The great rebellion must occur, and the man of lawlessness must be revealed before the rapture.

Review the OP.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood asked:
Originally Posted by Atwood

How do you know that there is but one Kingdom?

Because the Biblical and certain interpretation (Da 2:44) of the prophetic riddle (Da 2:37-43)
given by Daniel states that the kingdom which God established then shall never be destroyed,
it lasts forever.

But that doesn't prove that there is only one kingdom, only that the Kingdom mentioned in Dan 2:44 (yet future) would be forever.

So, given that an eternal kingdom will be set up (future to Dan 2), how do you know that there is only one kingdom?
Where does scripture say there is only 1 kingdom?

How do you know that there was not already another kingdom? And how do you know that other kingdoms would not be set up in addition to the one of Dan 2? Proof?

Nowhere does Jesus teach two kingdoms of God.

What is your proof of that?
And if you mean the collection of Jesus sayings in the gospels (which is not all of His teaching),
how would only 1 kingdom there prove there was only 1 kingdom?

Nowhere do we find two kingdoms in certain and unequivocal NT apostolic teaching.

How do you know that?

Two kingdoms are derived from private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which adds to NT teaching our own unauthorized human assumptions.

What is your proof of that?

Atwood, You are not comprehending that Da 2:37-43 is fulfilled, nor what the text is stating.
"Those kings" are the four kings of Da 2:37-43, of Babylonia (626-539 BC), Medo-Persia (539-330 BC),
Greece (330-63 BC) and Rome (63 BC - 476 AD).

How do you know that?

God established his kingdom during the last Roman empire at the first coming of Christ.

How do you know that?
How could that be in the time those (plural) kings? How many kings were the during Christ's first advent? Who are these kings? As I asked originally, "Who are those kings? When did this kingdom break in pieces & consume all these kingdoms? When during Christ's ministry were each of these 4 kingdoms broken? How do you know it means those kingdoms, anyway?


[quote\You misunderstand the grammatical construction of the sentence.

/---It---- / shall break in pieces and consume / all these kingdoms./

/subject / ----------------verb----------------- / ------object------- /[/quote]

Backquote me where I misunderstood the grammar.

44 וביומיהון די מלכיא אנון יקים אלה שמיא מלכו די לעלמין לא תתחבל ומלכותה לעם אחרן לא תשתבק תדק ותסיף . . . מלכותא
מלכותה subject implied
break/crush = תדק verb
all these kingdoms = כל אלין מלכותא direct object
​

The kingdom itself does not break, it breaks all these kingdoms in pieces and it consumes all these kingdoms.

How can you say, "The kingdom itself does not break, it breaks" ??? Are you contradicting yourself? Or did you misunderstand my statement: "Who are those kings? When did this kingdom break in pieces & consume all these kingdoms?"

What is your proof that there was no kingdom of God before Christ's ministry?

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Atwood wrote:

Originally Posted by Atwood

make this a nail in your system:
Christ's return is imminent, to be expected at any time; perhaps even while you are reading this.

Not according to 2Th 2:1-8.
The great rebellion must occur, and the man of lawlessness must be revealed before the rapture.
Review the OP.

Let's review 2 Thes 2:1-8:

Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that

the day of the Lord is just at hand;
[The Day of the Lord means a time when God takes punitive action & control on earth; it never means the rapture, nor the 2nd coming; I have checked all the passages on this in the Bible. Anyone who doubts this is invited to do a concordance check.]

let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except
the departure come first,

[possibly = literal departure of Church at Rapture [supported by L & S Lexicon & usage of apostasia in the Dormition of Mary]

and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming; even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

There are things that must precede the Day of the Lord; but this is not the Rapture nor the 2nd coming.
End of 1 Thes 4 = Rapture;
Start of 1 Thes 5 = Day of the Lord, Tribulation.

I urge you however else you figure out eschatology,
do not imagine that Christ could not come today.
The judge is at the doors.
His coming is at hand. (James 5)

 

[Hoffco]

To ELIN, Again, you are reading too much into: 1Cor 15:23 Mt.6:20 Eph.1:20-23 ; BUT you reduces Jesus' kingdom in Dan.2:44 & 7:13,14-27. to just a spiritual kingdom, This is the physical, world wide kingdom of "The Son of Man", Jesus, at the "end" time, the time Daniel will be resurrected and rule, for 1,000yrs. at the "end of the age." Dan.12:13 the last 1,000 yrs. of history. The resurrection of all the dead, the Good and the Evil, in Dan.12:2 is separated by 1,000yrs.. according to Rev. 20:4-5.b Dan.11 & 12 can not fit into 70 ad. 1Cor 15:23 Jesus' "His coming" then 1,000yrs, to "the end" in v. 24. Then Jesus delievers up the earthly kingdoms, His being the last one, and spiritual kingdom to His Father and God, as the spiritual kingdom become an earthly, forever kingdom, and Jesus lives on the new earth for ever with us. Of course Jesus as, "the only begotten Son" of the Father is still in Heaven in the bosom of the Father for all eternity. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To Atwood, Sorry, you are hung up on this false immanency of Jesus return. Love Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

To Atwood, Sorry, you are hung up on this false immanency of Jesus return. Love Hoffco

How deep is that sorrow, Hoffco? LOL. Let me remind you what James says:

"Murmur not, brethren, one against another." So whilst thou art a sobbing over me in sorrow,
be careful not to murmur! LOL


Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for
the coming of the Lord is at hand.
Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold,
the judge is standing before the doors.

Let me be hung up until I am caught up!

Let me tell you a Reformed Episcopal Seminary story:

Once upon a time there was a student at RE who was given a paper to write on The Importance of the Prayer Book.
The problem was that he didn't think too much of the Prayer Book. So, not wishing to offend, he wrote like:

"The importance of the prayer book is that it is useful to know should one be driving along and suddenly run off the road & over a cliff. On the way down, one can call out, "Remember the prayer on p. 49!"
I don't know if the paper was for G. Hall Todd.

 

[Jason0047]

Again, it does not say 1/4 of the earth is killed. It says "power was given to THEM over a 4th part of the earth..." So they have power over 1/4 of the earth. 1/4 of the earth is their domain and the percentage they control. The Muslim nations make up 22% of the world population thus they already have power over 1/4 of the earth. The text goes on to say, "to kill" then lists the methods by which they kill. So they have power over 1/4 of the earth to kill within that 1/4 of earth by the means listed, WAR, STARVATION, SICKNESS OR DISEASE AND THROUGH AND BY THEIR GOVERNMENTS meaning they kill as a matter of law.

His name is "Death." He is not going to be giving out milk and cookies over having power over 1/4 of the Earth. The passage specifically states in Revelation 6 that this "Death" has power to KILL. Not power to give out milk and cookies. This power is a power to kill with various different means.

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8).

Granted, even if one fourth of the population of the planet was not completely wiped out, this power to kill over 1/4 off the Earth would still be a lot of bodies and be one of the largest losses of life in human history. The fact that the saints would be among those who die (Which is spoken of in many other verses), logically fits the timing of the enforcement of the Mark and the mention of this passage.

Once you see that the Green Horse (Pale) is the Islamic World and you see that they control 1/4 of the world then you understand that they don't wipe out themselves. They will kill as many Christians and Jews as they can find which we are now seeing with ISIS, but they are not able to kill 1/4 of the world unless they use nukes or chemical weapons on a massive scale.

I do not see anything about a Green Horse in Scripture and how it relates to Islam and how that is tied to the 4th seal.

 

[Kerry]

The problem most folks have with Revelations is the fact that people will be saved after the rapture. I meant how many people know about the rapture but disregard it. Then, when it happens, many will believe and could possibly be the great revival that is talked about. I meant churches were flooded after 9/11 and then slowly died off back to the usual numbers. Then, in the south Katrina hit and churches were flooded by people and then it went back to the same ole same ole. But, when people are just gone and there is no explanation. The churches will be flooded, but the folks that were at church won't be there.

To the OP the rapture happens exactly when it is supposed to. It could be tonight are you ready?

 

[Atwood]

I do not see anything about a Green Horse in Scripture and how it relates to Islam and how that is tied to the 4th seal.

How about gangrene colored -- check your Greek word Jason, as you chew on green chlorophyl gum.