When does the rapture occur?

[GaryA]

So you see the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21) as having started in AD 70 (Mat 24:15) and continuing to this day? So we have 1944 years and counting of:

"great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..."

I cannot agree with that.

I can.

I told you this before.

You don't believe that the "great tribulation" from 70 A.D. ( past ) until "the mark of the beast" ( future ) is the worst the world has ever seen?

The problem is -- people have been "trained" to believe that the Great Tribulation MUST BE a short period of time -- i.e., 7 years or 3.5 years. ( Which keeps them from seeing "the bigger picture"... )

I told you this before.

We are IN the Great Tribulation period NOW - since ~70 A.D.

It is not over yet. In fact, the worst is yet to come... ( think - "mark of the beast" )

 

[GaryA]

I agree it is the Church and agree they are martyred. However, to say it is a 2,000+ year period doesn't seem to align with Rev 6:11:

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I believe that this verse is referring to the [ past ] martyred saints of the dark ages 'era' having to wait for the [ future ] martyred saints of the mark of the beast 'era' -- both within the Great Tribulation 'period'.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The problem with your theory about the great tribulation starting in 70 AD and still on going is that their are prophecies in the old testament that are to take place before the tribulation period starts or issues in the tribulation period. As well as the birth pains that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 that take place before the tribulation period starts that we are seeing still to this days that are getting worse and worse.

The book of Ezekiel gives dimensions for a temple to be built, that does not match the first two temples because an outer court yard is missing. And why is that court yard missing ?

Thanks to a architect who drew up a blew print using those dimensions found out that it fits perfectly next to the dome of the rock.

Then you have the antichrist coming to power and entering the temple and claiming to be god, putting an end to the animal sacrifices that the Jews return to doing when the temple is rebuilt. ( They have said they would, and have already prepared all the stuff that goes into the temple )

Plus how do you claim the time frame is when it says time, times, half a time. ( This is 3 1/2 years )

I can.

I told you this before.

You don't believe that the "great tribulation" from 70 A.D. ( past ) until "the mark of the beast" ( future ) is the worst the world has ever seen?

The problem is -- people have been "trained" to believe that the Great Tribulation MUST BE a short period of time -- i.e., 7 years or 3.5 years. ( Which keeps them from seeing "the bigger picture"... )

I told you this before.

We are IN the Great Tribulation period NOW - since ~70 A.D.

It is not over yet. In fact, the worst is yet to come... ( think - "mark of the beast" )

 

[konroh]

The rapture has no preceding prophecies therefore it cannot be predicted.

 

[Elin]

I agree it is the Church and agree they are martyred. However, to say it is a 2,000+ year period
doesn't seem to align with Rev 6:11:

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

They are told to rest "a little while longer" not 2,000 years longer which is 1/3 of earth history.

I am totally convinced that the 4th Seal is Radical Islam and their Caliphate. This Ebola thing started in Islamic countries and has the real potential to kill a ton of people. I think we are knee deep in the 4th seal right now. I see ISIS as just the start of a ramping up of killing Christians. Then I think the 5th Seal shows all dead martyrs but especially the recent dead because they are told "others will be killed as they were."

I am uncertain of all private interpretation of prophetic riddles, including my own,
because they can be validly interpreted in more than one way,
so I do not argue them. . .unless they are contrary to certain NT teaching.
I disagree with any private interpretation of prophetic riddles that is not in agreement certain NT teaching.

That is a logical thing to think. However, Luke differs from Mat and Mark. It appears to me that Luke focuses more on the temple and AD 70 events than the other two accounts. I can accept DAN 9 being related to AD 70 but not Dan 11-12.
The events listed there did NOT happen back in AD 70.

I used Da 11 and 12 with Da 9 because they also refer to the "abomination of desolation" of Da 9.
More private and uncertain interpretation of prophectic riddles.

True, but it wasn't during the Winter. It was in August AD 70.

Did Jesus say it would be in winter?

Christ would have to have been taking things out of order and He's God and thus not prone to deception

Our lack of insight does not constitute Christ's deception.
You do realize that is pure human rational with no Biblical basis, right?

I think we haven't reached Mat 24:15 yet. You are trying to find something in the past to fit your view which explains it but given that the Gospel had not been preached to all the world by AD 70 makes it clear to me that everything following is still yet future.

I don't argue private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles, including my own.

Look at the countries who are aligning against Israel right now. They are matching Ezek 38 perfectly.

Time will tell Elin. I think we are not going to have to wait too much longer. These are scary but exciting times.
I'm glued to the news, are you?

Not that much. . .I am okay to let it unfold in whatever way God has ordained.
I've read the last chapter of the book, and I know how it is going to ultimately end.

 

[Elin]

The rapture has no preceding prophecies therefore it cannot be predicted.

It can only be stated when it will not happen, because certain things which have not yet happened must happen first,

 

[PlainWord]

Bingo. Which is exactly why satan works so hard to convince so many of it.

Yes, Paul specifically warns us not to believe the Pre-Trib Doctrine. He says it very clearly with no ambiguity.

2 Thes 2:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Jesus tells us there will be false prophets in the latter days. Personally I think Jesus is also speaking about the Pre-Trib movement here.

Mat 24:

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

The Pre-Trib doctrine is a FALSE PROPHESY. It is heresy. There is no Rapture lesson found in the Bible. Worse, the doctrine actually contradicts all the clear teaching that is in the Bible. It adds a return of Christ not found and it seeks to make void the very clear and precise warnings Jesus gives us about the times to come.

I believe 99.9% of the Pre-Trib community means well. They are just deceived. They don't even realize that they are wolves in sheep's clothing. They feel secure in the beliefs and faith. Both of my parents are pre-tribbers. My mom is an amazing Christian. But she drank the Kool Aide too.

 

[PlainWord]

I can.

I told you this before.

You don't believe that the "great tribulation" from 70 A.D. ( past ) until "the mark of the beast" ( future ) is the worst the world has ever seen?

The problem is -- people have been "trained" to believe that the Great Tribulation MUST BE a short period of time -- i.e., 7 years or 3.5 years. ( Which keeps them from seeing "the bigger picture"... )

I told you this before.

We are IN the Great Tribulation period NOW - since ~70 A.D.

It is not over yet. In fact, the worst is yet to come... ( think - "mark of the beast" )

I know Gary. You, Elin and apparently Watcher all believe this. I understand your reasons and I respect them. I have to respectfully disagree with you guys for several reasons.

1) Jesus gives us a period called the "Beginning of Sorrows." Then in Mat 24:14 He makes clear that the Gospel has to be preached into all the nations before the end comes and before He introduces the Abomination of Desolation. The Gospel was just starting out back then. It had NOT been preached to the world before the AD 70 Abomination.

2) The remnant of AD 70 fled to Masada. They were all killed there in AD 73. None survived. The Days were not shortened for them. Nothing tells us they were the ELECT.

3) There was no great deception during AD 70. Nobody was buying into the idea that Titus was their Messiah. Nobody was trying to get the Jews to "Go out and see the Christ."

4) The fleeing of AD 70 occurred on August 4, AD 70. That day was a Sabbath but it was not in Winter.

5) Armageddon was introduced in verse 28 which ties with Rev 19. While there was a slaughter and likely scavengers, the death toll from the initial Roman slaughter was only 3,600.

6) You had Cestilus Callus who sent 20,000 Roman troops down from Syria and the Jews slaughtered 6,000 of these solders causing Callus to retreat. Then Nero sent Vespasian to squash the rebellion. He succeeded in Galilee, the Jordan River Valley area and Idumea then encircled Jerusalem. At that time Nero died and a power struggle within Rome ensued. This is when Vespasian appointed his son, Titus, to take over. Over an extended period the Romans eventually battered down the temple walls and killed or captured the remaining defenders. While it can be effectively argued that Daniel 11 may have been fulfilled by Ptolemy I and Seleucus of Egypt who came after the Romans, nothing in Daniel 12 appears to have been fulfilled.

7) We have not seen the appearance of the Man of Sin or the Falling Away as discussed by Paul. So either you tie the Man of Sin to Titus or you don't. I don't.

I recognize many similarities of AD 70 to what Christ discussed. But I also consider the strong possibility of a dual fulfillment. Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city on earth. Isaiah 17:1 calls for the complete desolation of Damascus which has not happened. In fact most of the Chapters in the teens of Isaiah I believe are future.

As for the church age lasting 2,000+ years YES we agree. But to say it is the Greatest Tribulation ever, I disagree. I think the worst is yet to come and that we are still in the Beginnings of Sorrows.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The rapture has no preceding prophecies therefore it cannot be predicted.

Your right the rapture does not, but the tribulation period does have prophecies that have to be fulfilled before the tribulation period begins or ushers in the tribulation period.

Some of those prophecies from the old testament are still to happen, and along with Matthew 24 where Jesus tells us the things we will see before the tribulation period begins. Referring them to birth pains, because just like a woman in labor the labor pains will get worse and worse.

Just like we are seeing with earth quakes, crazy weather, diseases ( pestilence ), hunger ( famine ), nation rising up against nation, kingdom against kingdom ( Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, Israel and Palestine conflict getting worse, Iraq taken over by Isis, and so on )

The OT mentions how Damascus will be destroyed, and no longer be a city. It has been attacked and taken over before but it still remained a city and is one to this day. But as we can see very close to being destroyed if things keep escalating.

 

[Radius]

what do all the Christians do during the trib when we cannot buy or sell? live off the land, become farmers? Will we be sought and killed?

 

[PlainWord]

The problem with your theory about the great tribulation starting in 70 AD and still on going is that their are prophecies in the old testament that are to take place before the tribulation period starts or issues in the tribulation period. As well as the birth pains that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 that take place before the tribulation period starts that we are seeing still to this days that are getting worse and worse.

The book of Ezekiel gives dimensions for a temple to be built, that does not match the first two temples because an outer court yard is missing. And why is that court yard missing ?

Thanks to a architect who drew up a blew print using those dimensions found out that it fits perfectly next to the dome of the rock.

Then you have the antichrist coming to power and entering the temple and claiming to be god, putting an end to the animal sacrifices that the Jews return to doing when the temple is rebuilt. ( They have said they would, and have already prepared all the stuff that goes into the temple )

Plus how do you claim the time frame is when it says time, times, half a time. ( This is 3 1/2 years )

I generally agree with this post. However, I saw a tv show the other day where they interviewed the head of one of the Temple institutes. He made clear they would never rebuilt the temple next to the Dome of the Rock. They consider it a pagan building and insisted it must go first. But who knows???

Personally I think if the world is gonna condemn Israel for everything they may as well just snub their noses and go for it. Take out Hamas, Hezbollah then the Dome of the Rock. What's Obama gonna do?? NOTHING. What's Kerry gonna do? Organize a Sit-In?

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that this verse is referring to the [ past ] martyred saints of the dark ages 'era' having to wait for the [ future ] martyred saints of the mark of the beast 'era' -- both within the Great Tribulation 'period'.

It's a possibility. However, look closely at the sequence in Mat 24 (which I know you have 1 million times).

The early persecution of the Church began with Stephen being stoned which caused many to flee Jerusalem. Then you have virtually all of the disciples martyred by the destruction of the temple in AD 70 with the exception of John. Some scholars suggest that maybe Simon the Zealot lived until AD 74 but the rest were dead by AD 70, including Peter and Paul by AD 67. So, this ties nicely with verse 9.

The events of verses 10-13 are rather ambiguous and impossible to locate. Verse 14, Gospel preached to all the world could never have been said to be completed until the age of TV, Satellites and internet. So, this puts us up until today if not even later.

The big question I have for you Gary is this:

Do you see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Jesus and Daniel as the same thing as the Man of Sin spoken of by Paul? This will help me better understand your position.

 

[Ukorin]

Your right the rapture does not, but the tribulation period does have prophecies that have to be fulfilled before the tribulation period begins or ushers in the tribulation period.

Some of those prophecies from the old testament are still to happen, and along with Matthew 24 where Jesus tells us the things we will see before the tribulation period begins. Referring them to birth pains, because just like a woman in labor the labor pains will get worse and worse.

Just like we are seeing with earth quakes, crazy weather, diseases ( pestilence ), hunger ( famine ), nation rising up against nation, kingdom against kingdom ( Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, Israel and Palestine conflict getting worse, Iraq taken over by Isis, and so on )

The OT mentions how Damascus will be destroyed, and no longer be a city. It has been attacked and taken over before but it still remained a city and is one to this day. But as we can see very close to being destroyed if things keep escalating.

I would say the opposite.
The Judgement of God upon the earth will come swiftly and without warning.
The rapture on the other hand has signs of its arrival.

Why would the Believers be taken by surprise, yet the unbelievers be given signs?
The Scripture teaches imminent judgement, not imminent rapture.

 

[Ukorin]

I just read this beautiful devotion about the Coming of our Lord.
Charles Spurgeon's Morning and Evening


Morning
=======
"The Lamb is the light thereof." / Revelation 21:23


Quietly contemplate the Lamb as the light of heaven. Light in Scripture is the
emblem of joy. The joy of the saints in heaven is comprised in this: Jesus
chose us, loved us, bought us, cleansed us, robed us, kept us, glorified us:
we are here entirely through the Lord Jesus. Each one of these thoughts shall
be to them like a cluster of the grapes of Eshcol.

Light is also the cause of beauty. Nought of beauty is left when light is gone.
Without light no radiance flashes from the sapphire, no peaceful ray proceedeth
from the pearl; and thus all the beauty of the saints above comes from Jesus.
As planets, they reflect the light of the Sun of Righteousness; they live as beams
proceeding from the central orb. If he withdrew, they must die; if his glory were veiled,
their glory must expire.

Light is also the emblem of knowledge. In heaven our knowledge will be perfect,
but the Lord Jesus himself will be the fountain of it. Dark providences, never
understood before, will then be clearly seen, and all that puzzles us now will
become plain to us in the light of the Lamb.
Oh! what unfoldings there will be and what glorifying of the God of love!

Light also means manifestation. Light manifests. In this world it doth not yet
appear what we shall be. God's people are a hidden people, but when Christ
receives his people into heaven, he will touch them with the wand of his own
love, and change them into the image of his manifested glory. They were poor
and wretched, but what a transformation! They were stained with sin, but one
touch of his finger, and they are bright as the sun, and clear as crystal.
Oh! what a manifestation!

All this proceeds from the exalted Lamb. Whatever there
may be of effulgent splendour, Jesus shall be the centre and soul of it all.

Oh! to be present and to see him in his own light, the King of kings, and Lord
of lords!

 

[GaryA]

The following list represents the Chronological Order of groups of verses in Matthew 24:

[table]
[tr][td]C.O.[/td][td]Verses[/td][td]Event[/td][td]Comments[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 0[/td][td]1-2; 3 [/td][td]Olivet Discourse [/td][td]zero time reference ("in the present") [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 1[/td][td]4-5 [/td][td]"False Christs come and deceive many" [/td][td]starts and continues until Chronological Order #9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 2[/td][td]6 [/td][td]"ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars" [/td][td]starts and continues until Chronological Order #9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 3[/td][td]15-20 [/td][td]"abomination of desolation" [/td][td]before the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 4[/td][td]9-13; 21-22 [/td][td]"great tribulation" [/td][td]starts and continues until Chronological Order #8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 5[/td][td]23-26 [/td][td]"false Christs, and false prophets" [/td][td]starts and continues until Chronological Order #9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 6[/td][td]7-8 [/td][td]"the beginning of sorrows" [/td][td]starts and continues until Chronological Order #9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 7[/td][td]14 [/td][td]"gospel preached / published in all the world"[/td][td]The gospel has been preached to all nations. [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 8[/td][td]29 [/td][td]"and then shall the end come" [/td][td]beginning with "fearful sights and great signs", before Jesus returns[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 9[/td][td]30 [/td][td]JESUS RETURNS [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]31 [/td][td]THE RAPTURE [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[/table]

( Data comes from my Olivet Discourse chart -- see my signature. )

As you can see - the Olivet Discourse does not describe events in a straight-through [ linear ] order.

The "beginning of sorrows" does not take place before the tribulation, but rather - during the tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

The phrase 'that day shall not come' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring back to the phrase 'day of Christ' in the previous verse. The 'Man of Sin' and 'Falling Away' are indicated to "occur" before the Second Coming of Christ - not before the start of the Great Tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

There is no place in the scriptures that indicates the [ exact ] length of the Great Tribulation ( as a whole, start-to-finish, beginning-to-end ).

 

[GaryA]

It's a possibility. However, look closely at the sequence in Mat 24 (which I know you have 1 million times).

1 million and a half... JK

The events of verses 10-13 are rather ambiguous and impossible to locate.

Not so much as you might think. The answer is in the 'grammar of the language'...

Verse 14, Gospel preached to all the world could never have been said to be completed until the age of TV, Satellites and internet. So, this puts us up until today if not even later.

So? It is not indicated to be 'completed' pre-trib...

The big question I have for you Gary is this:

Do you see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Jesus and Daniel as the same thing as the Man of Sin spoken of by Paul? This will help me better understand your position.

No.

 

[RickyZ]

I can.

I told you this before.

You don't believe that the "great tribulation" from 70 A.D. ( past ) until "the mark of the beast" ( future ) is the worst the world has ever seen?

The problem is -- people have been "trained" to believe that the Great Tribulation MUST BE a short period of time -- i.e., 7 years or 3.5 years. ( Which keeps them from seeing "the bigger picture"... )

I told you this before.

We are IN the Great Tribulation period NOW - since ~70 A.D.

It is not over yet. In fact, the worst is yet to come... ( think - "mark of the beast" )

I would go one step further and say tribulation started at man's fall.

That's the thing about prophecy, as the word of God it is eternal and reverberates throughout time. The events of the "end times" are nothing new, they are just the extreme culmination of those prophecies. Ever since he fell man has been circling the drain, and the end times extremes are just the final veracity of man's last spin.

 

[Kerry]

Wrong. Think it's, wrong