When does the rapture occur?

[Ukorin]

No, Jesus said you will not know the day or the hour. You either believe Him or you don't.

Could this not refer to the tribulation as a whole? This verse is not directly referring to rapture.
Also, as I said before, the 2nd Coming is only said to surprise unbelievers. Believers are given the signs to watch for.
If not, then why were we even given the book of Revelation?
If it is not for us, then why not give it post-rapture?

The New Testement was not given before Christ came, because it was not for that dispensation.
Why would we be given writings only valuable to a different dispensation? It would only cause confusion.
No. Revelation is for the Church.

 

[Hoffco]

To Ukorin post 456, you and I agree on this mid-Tri rapture, which actually is after the main tribulation of the Church age, so post tri., there will be tribulation for the 144,000 Jews left on earth after we go in the rapture. and also the time of God's wrath after we are raptured. As Ukorin says, Revelation is the KEY to putting the pieces of the puzzle together. PlainWord, I think you need to read again all the scriptures and see the whole picture. I can see where Daniel fits into Rev. also. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[watcher2013]

No, Jesus said you will not know the day or the Hour believe Him or you don't.

I think there is a thread discussing immanency.

Here is a video link about that day and hour, please have a look.

http://youtu.be/_X8JMEKlprg

 

[PlainWord]

No, Jesus said you will not know the day or the hour. You either believe Him or you don't.

Day or hour is a pretty narrow window. He didn't say we couldn't know the season, the year, the month or the week, did he???

 

[PlainWord]

To Ukorin post 456, you and I agree on this mid-Tri rapture, which actually is after the main tribulation of the Church age, so post tri., there will be tribulation for the 144,000 Jews left on earth after we go in the rapture. and also the time of God's wrath after we are raptured. As Ukorin says, Revelation is the KEY to putting the pieces of the puzzle together. PlainWord, I think you need to read again all the scriptures and see the whole picture. I can see where Daniel fits into Rev. also. Love to all. Hoffco

Hoffco,

Let me ask you something my dear friend. Do you see this as the return of Jesus, the mid trib return/rapture??

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If this is your rapture, how can you possibly locate it at the mid way point of the Tribulation when verse 29 says this:

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board my friend. The Tribulation is over before Christ returns. As for Revelation, tell me which seal, trumpet or bowl contains the return of Christ? Why don't you line up the passage in Revelation, the passage in Daniel and the passage in Matthew for us all and enlighten us all since you see how it all fits together.

 

[PlainWord]

I think there is a thread discussing immanency.

Here is a video link about that day and hour, please have a look.

The Day No one Knows - YouTube

Nice job on that video Brother. You absolutely destroyed the concept of IMMANENCY during the early days of the church. Obviously, Christ could not come back before Pentecost, before the Conversion of Paul, the Conversion of Cornelius or before the ministry of Paul was completed.

You also accurately point out that Christ could not return before Peter's death. Because Peter's death was foretold by Christ, Christ could NOT return before then thus He would be preventing Peter's prophetic death. Obviously as you stated, Christ could not come back before John completed the Book of Revelation, thus there is no immanency up until around AD 95-96.

All pre-Tribbers should be required to watch your video as it absolutely destroys their theory. But it goes further than that, it provides strong evidence that their belief of a Pre-Trib Return not happening will be the catalyst for many of them falling away and for scoffing.

Excellent job, my dear Brother!!

 

[watcher2013]

Nice job on that video Brother. You absolutely destroyed the concept of IMMANENCY during the early days of the church. Obviously, Christ could not come back before Pentecost, before the Conversion of Paul, the Conversion of Cornelius or before the ministry of Paul was completed.

You also accurately point out that Christ could not return before Peter's death. Because Peter's death was foretold by Christ, Christ could NOT return before then thus He would be preventing Peter's prophetic death. Obviously as you stated, Christ could not come back before John completed the Book of Revelation, thus there is no immanency up until around AD 95-96.

All pre-Tribbers should be required to watch your video as it absolutely destroys their theory. But it goes further than that, it provides strong evidence that their belief of a Pre-Trib Return not happening will be the catalyst for many of them falling away and for scoffing.

Excellent job, my dear Brother!!

Hope those who believe in pre trib doctrine will spare some time to watch the video.
and if they can find errors in the video it would be helpful.

the video however does not show that John wrote the book of revelation around 95-96 AD...that is just one of many timing.
your words are very encouraging.

 

[PlainWord]

Hope those who believe in pre trib doctrine will spare some time to watch the video.
and if they can find errors in the video it would be helpful.

the video however does not show that John wrote the book of revelation around 95-96 AD...that is just one of many timing.
your words are very encouraging.

Most scholars agree that Revelation was likely written around AD 95 but even if it was sooner, most agree Peter died around AD 67/68. But let's not forget, Jesus also predicted the destruction of the temple and that the Jews would be scattered into all the nations. I think you left that out of your video. The uprising of the Zealots and their defeat, including Masada, happened between AD 67-73 so obviously Christ could not have returned before then either.

As you point out, there is no immanency before at least AD 73 and likely AD 95. The Apostles may even have been looking for the return of Christ in their lifetimes (except Peter), based on some comments Christ made. However, as we now know it has been 1981 years and there is nothing immanent about that!!

To me, your best argument was that Christ specifically told us that there would be signs before His return and Paul told us that the Man of Sin comes first. Therefore, these two facts destroys the immanency concept because we will see those signs and know when we are in the season, those of us who keep the faith and are not killed.

God Bless!!

 

[PlainWord]

And many think that the 3rd temple needs to be rebuilt first too.

 

[PlainWord]

Our Christian brothers and sisters in Syria and Iraq are being slaughtered by ISIS and radical extremists. I heard reports of be-headings and whole families being killed in front of their father who then is stabbed and shot in the head for refusing to convert to Islam. This treatment is EXACTLY what Jesus promised is coming to His followers.

Where is their Rapture? Why are they dying? More importantly, why do Christians in the West think we are going to be raptured and spared this treatment? What makes us so special? Why are we worthy of rapture when most of us have never faced any persecution for our faith? I wonder how well we in the USA will stand up to Islam is and when that treatment comes here.

The Great Tribulation is the GREAT SLAUGHTER of the Church. That is what is taught. That is why there is a Great Multitude in Heaven from every nation, tribe, peoples and tongues.

 

[Elin]

Our Christian brothers and sisters in Syria and Iraq are being slaughtered by ISIS and radical extremists. I heard reports of be-headings and whole families being killed in front of their father who then is stabbed and shot in the head for refusing to convert to Islam. This treatment is EXACTLY what Jesus promised is coming to His followers.

Where is their Rapture? Why are they dying? More importantly, why do Christians in the West think we are going to be raptured and spared this treatment? What makes us so special? Why are we worthy of rapture when most of us have never faced any persecution for our faith? I wonder how well we in the USA will stand up to Islam is and when that treatment comes here.

The Great Tribulation is the GREAT SLAUGHTER of the Church. That is what is taught. That is why there is a Great Multitude in Heaven from every nation, tribe, peoples and tongues.

Keeping in mind that the great slaughter of the Church began with the apostles when the Church hit the ground.

 

[PlainWord]

Keeping in mind that the great slaughter of the Church began with the apostles when the Church hit the ground.

So you see the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21) as having started in AD 70 (Mat 24:15) and continuing to this day? So we have 1944 years and counting of:

"great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..."

I cannot agree with that.

In fact the Great Tribulation that Jesus discusses starts out dealing with Israel. Jesus invoked the Abomination of Desolation as "Spoken by Daniel the Prophet." You see this as having been fulfilled by Titus and the destruction of the Second Temple. However, you have not explained "How those days were shortened for the sake of the Elect?" And you have failed to tell us who the Elect of AD 70 were? They could not have been the remnant that fled to Masada because every single person there died by AD 73.

There is no question that the early Church suffered great tribulation and that 11 of the 12 disciples were martyred. But the Gospel has not yet been preached to all the world, this requirement is still on-going but nearing completion. This requirement was given BEFORE the Abomination was mentioned and thus the Abomination has to be yet future.

Also, none of the events of Daniel 11 or Ezekiel 38-39 can be considered completed.

 

[PlainWord]

[h=1]2nd Temple Destruction – 70 AD Jewish Partial Lunar Eclipses[/h]


2 Partial Lunar Eclipses occurred on the Jewish Passover and Feast of Tabernacles holidays in 70 A.D. The moon did not turn blood red as the other Tetrads mentioned on this website. The destruction date of the 2nd Temple according to the Hebrew calendar was the 9th of Av, also known as Tisha B’Av (04 August 70 AD). The last remnant of the Jewish Nation of Israel hid for 3 years at Masada before being conquered by the Roman Army in 73 A.D. Israel became a country once again in 1948, just before a Tetrad sequence of 4 Red Blood Moons occurred in 1949 & 1950.

 

[TruthFromFrank]

There are basically three periods involved with the ‘coming of the Lord’ namely the pre-Millennium, Millennium and the post-Millennium. Millennium basically means a period of 1000 years.

Briefly, the following happens over the three periods.

Pre-Millennium
1. The angels will announce the ‘coming of the Lord’ from the clouds with the sound of trumpets.
2. The Lord comes on a cloud but will not put His feet on this corrupted/polluted earth.
3. The resurrection of the dead ‘saved’ ones takes place.
4. The change of the living ‘saved’ (144000) - to receive heavenly bodies.
5. The ‘saved’ (two groups) go up to the cloud to meet Jesus in the air.
6. The ‘saved’ now travel with Jesus to heaven to live with Him for 1000 years.



Millennium.
1. Satan is cast into the ‘pit of darkness’ and it is sealed for 1000 years.
2. Satan’s angels remain on this earth together with the living ‘unsaved’ and will carry on with their sinful acts.
3. The ‘saved’ ones will rule as kings with Jesus in heaven for the whole period of 1000 years.
4. The ‘saved’ will assist in the judgement.

Post-Millennium.
1. The Lord sends the angels beforehand to earth to prepare a place for the New Jerusalem to ‘land’.
2. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to this earth.
3. Satan is released from the ‘pit of darkness’.
4. The dead ‘unsaved’ is resurrected.
5. Satan, his angels and the ‘unsaved’ prepares to attack the New Jerusalem.

6. The Lord destroys every ‘unsaved’, Satan’s angels and Satan with fire and brimstone.
7. The elements of this earth melt from the heat and the New Jerusalem floats on the lava just as Noah’s arc was floating on the water.
8. The Lord creates a New heaven and a New Earth.
9. The doors of the New Jerusalem will be opened and the ‘saved’ will go out to enjoy the New Earth.

I have done an extensive study on this and it is quite a lengthy document. If anybody would like the texts to specific points, please ask. I must point out that there are certain points that are quoted that there are no texts but is a logical event that will follow the previous statements but around 95% of my statements are covered by texts. I have just used the KJV of the Bible to prove my theory above.

 

[watcher2013]

There are basically three periods involved with the ‘coming of the Lord’ namely the pre-Millennium, Millennium and the post-Millennium. Millennium basically means a period of 1000 years.

Briefly, the following happens over the three periods.


Millennium.
1.Satan is cast into the ‘pit of darkness’ and it is sealed for 1000 years.
2.Satan’s angels remain on this earth together with the living ‘unsaved’ and will carry on with their sinful acts.
3.The ‘saved’ ones will rule as kings with Jesus in heaven for the whole period of 1000 years.
4.The ‘saved’ will assist in the judgement.

.

this millennium..are you referring to Rev 20?

Where are again the saints during this period?
Rev 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[watcher2013]

So you see the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21) as having started in AD 70 (Mat 24:15) and continuing to this day? So we have 1944 years and counting of:

"great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..."

I cannot agree with that.

In fact the Great Tribulation that Jesus discusses starts out dealing with Israel. Jesus invoked the Abomination of Desolation as "Spoken by Daniel the Prophet." You see this as having been fulfilled by Titus and the destruction of the Second Temple. However, you have not explained "How those days were shortened for the sake of the Elect?" And you have failed to tell us who the Elect of AD 70 were? They could not have been the remnant that fled to Masada because every single person there died by AD 73.

There is no question that the early Church suffered great tribulation and that 11 of the 12 disciples were martyred. But the Gospel has not yet been preached to all the world, this requirement is still on-going but nearing completion. This requirement was given BEFORE the Abomination was mentioned and thus the Abomination has to be yet future.

Also, none of the events of Daniel 11 or Ezekiel 38-39 can be considered completed.

I would comment on this plain:
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and luke 21 all of them begin with the discussion about the destruction of the temple as to when...

they describes it as
Luke 21:21-23 great distress in the land...
Mark 13 :19 affliction
Mat 24:21 great tribulation...

they all referred to the destruction of the temple and subsequent Desolation of the Land....

important to note the "Desolation of the Land", as this was a reminder of the destruction of the first temple:

Eze 5:9And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations

In Ezekiel 5:9 it was said that God will not do anymore the like....Did God lie...No, Israel commit abominations....

The Land was desolated for 70 years....

the abomination of desolation must have two things...There must be abomination...and there must be Desolation...

If this great tribulation is future...then there must be Desolation of the Land.

How long is the Great tribulation?
I understand it ends at Masada...

How long is the Tribulation of the children of Israel...
I understand it to continue until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled:

Luke describe this timeline:
Luk 21:24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

1. They shall fall by the edge of the sword..AD 66-AD73
2. They shall be led away captives into all nations: from AD70 - times of gentiles


Shortening those days:
Can this be understood as short period(3.5 years) rather than prolonged period (indefinite years):
meaning:
If the Romans did not end their pursue of all Jewish people there shall be no one left...

The remnants:
the Jewish people still exists to this day...proving there were remnants...

Luke timing of celestial signs:
Luk 21:24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

(When will the signs in the sun and the moon and stars...Is it after the times of the gentiles?)

Matthew timing of celestial signs:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The children of Israel were led captives into ALL nations (part of their tribulations)...
There is the need for the land to be trodden down till the times of the gentiles is fulfilled..

here is a video about the tribulation period:
[video=youtube;21HVU2NNx7Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HVU2NNx7Y[/video]

 

[Elin]

So you see the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21) as having started in AD 70 (Mat 24:15) and continuing to this day? So we have 1944 years and counting of:

"great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..."

I cannot agree with that.

Thlipsis also means "anguish, burdened, distress, persecution, trouble," as well as "tribulation."

My Bible uses "distress" in Mt 24:21.
I see the "great tribulation" of Rev 7:14 as the Church age.

However, because of its parallel passage in Lk 21:20-24 (see Da 9:27, 11:31, 12:11),
I think Mt 24:15-22 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Josephus, the Jewish historian who was there, describes the destruction of Jerusalem in the same terms.

In fact the Great Tribulation that Jesus discusses starts out dealing with Israel. Jesus invoked the Abomination of Desolation as "Spoken by Daniel the Prophet." You see this as having been fulfilled by Titus and the destruction of the Second Temple. However, you have not explained "How those days were shortened for the sake of the Elect?" And you have failed to tell us who the Elect of AD 70 were?

They would be believers in Jesus Christ caught in Jerusalem, pregnant women and nursing mothers, etc. who could not flee

They could not have been the remnant that fled to Masada because every single person there died by AD 73.

There is no question that the early Church suffered great tribulation and that 11 of the 12 disciples were martyred. But the Gospel has not yet been preached to all the world, this requirement is still on-going but nearing completion. This requirement was given
BEFORE the Abomination was mentioned and thus the Abomination has to be yet future.

I see Mt 24:4-14 as referring to the end of the NT church (ekklesia--Mt 16:18) age,
and Mt 24:15-22 as referring the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age.

Prophecy is often multi-dimensional, as I see this one to be.

Also, none of the events of Daniel 11 or Ezekiel 38-39 can be considered completed.

They may not be by the end of the OT church age of Mt 24:15-22,
but they will be by the end of the NT church age of Mt 24:4-14.

 

[PlainWord]

I see the "great tribulation" of Rev 7:14 as the Church age.

I agree it is the Church and agree they are martyred. However, to say it is a 2,000+ year period doesn't seem to align with Rev 6:11:

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

They are told to rest "a little while longer" not 2,000 years longer which is 1/3 of earth history.

I am totally convinced that the 4th Seal is Radical Islam and their Caliphate. This Ebola thing started in Islamic countries and has the real potential to kill a ton of people. I think we are knee deep in the 4th seal right now. I see ISIS as just the start of a ramping up of killing Christians. Then I think the 5th Seal shows all dead martyrs but especially the recent dead because they are told "others will be killed as they were."

However, because of its parallel passage in Lk 21:20-24 (see Da 9:27, 11:31, 12:11),
I think Mt 24:15-22 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That is a logical thing to think. However, Luke differs from Mat and Mark. It appears to me that Luke focuses more on the temple and AD 70 events than the other two accounts. I can accept DAN 9 being related to AD 70 but not Dan 11-12. The events listed there did NOT happen back in AD 70.

They would be believers in Jesus Christ caught in Jerusalem, pregnant women and nursing mothers, etc. who could not flee

True, but it wasn't during the Winter. It was in August AD 70.

I see Mt 24:4-14 as referring to the end of the NT church (ekklesia--Mt 16:18) age,
and Mt 24:15-22 as referring the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age.

Prophecy is often multi-dimensional, as I see this one to be.

Christ would have to have been taking things out of order and He's God and thus not prone to deception. I think we haven't reached Mat 24:15 yet. You are trying to find something in the past to fit your view which explains it but given that the Gospel had not been preached to all the world by AD 70 makes it clear to me that everything following is still yet future.

Look at the countries who are aligning against Israel right now. They are matching Ezek 38 perfectly.

Time will tell Elin. I think we are not going to have to wait too much longer. These are scary but exciting times. I
m glued to the news, are you?

 

[PlainWord]

I would comment on this plain:
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and luke 21 all of them begin with the discussion about the destruction of the temple as to when...

they describes it as
Luke 21:21-23 great distress in the land...
Mark 13 :19 affliction
Mat 24:21 great tribulation...

they all referred to the destruction of the temple and subsequent Desolation of the Land....

Ah, but do they all refer to AD 70?? The differences between Luke's account and Matthew and Mark's account are an often debated subject. It can be argued effectively both ways. The same can be said of some of Daniel. Is there one Abomination or are there two? Is Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 describing the same events? I used to think so, but now I am not so sure.

Christ specifically refers to the Abomination of Desolation in Mat 24 and Mark 13 but he does not use this term in Luke. Many people assume that Jesus was speaking of Daniel 9:27 but Daniel does not use the term there. Instead Daniel uses it in Dan 11:31 and 12:11.

There are many passages which discuss the "scattering into all the nations." Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah devote much time to this. There was a scattering after Babylon and after AD 70. But, there was only a partial return after Babylon (Ezra 1-2).

So does the return after Babylon count as a "Gathering from all Nations?" It's hard for me to see that. However, after AD 70, as we know, the Jews were literally scattered into all the nations for 1878 years and are still returning today. All tribes are coming back and they are "under one king" now with no more in fighting or enmity.

We know there will be one more gathering. Jesus gathers His Elect when He returns. We obviously see that from Mat 24 but also from Isaiah 11:

11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

 

[RickyZ]

their belief of a Pre-Trib Return not happening will be the catalyst for many of them falling away and for scoffing.

Bingo. Which is exactly why satan works so hard to convince so many of it.