When does the rapture occur?

[ELECT]

1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:15-17 do not confirm Mat 24:29-31. First off, 1 Cor 15:51-52 makes no mention of Christ or any gathering. It is simply a transformation which occurs at the End of Days.

1 Thes 4:15-17 does not mention Christ as the one returning and doing the "catching up." Look back at verse 14. Clearly it is God doing the "coming" here and the "catching up." God catches up, Christ sends His angels to "gather."

Gather vs. Catching up.

Nowhere in 1 Thes 4 is there a transformation of living taking place.

Nowhere in Mat 24:29-31 is there a transformation of living taking place.

These are assumptions.

When will this occur ? thanks

Psalm 50 King James Version (KJV)

1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

 

[ELECT]

JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. Not speakin of those who were raptured {actually there is no rapture}


DEUT.33 [1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.[2] And he said, THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and HE CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.[3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.[4] Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.

So if the “ten thousands of saints” in Jude are those that were raptured, who are the “ten thousands of saints” in Deuteronomy that were coming round the mountain before the death of Moses, and why werent they allowed to cometh?

Zechariah 14:5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints Jesus comes with are angels while the saints He comes for are the people

 

[Sec]

When will this occur ? thanks

Psalm 50 King James Version (KJV)

1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

The original meaning of the name zion, is a beauiful life starting with knowledge (of God) that is what awaits us in His Kingdom. along with the perfection of our souls as God recreates us into perfect spiritual images of Jesus.

3

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

God comes to each and every soul, and deals with them "one on one" and uses this "fire" which is devouring our "desire to sin," as God remakes us into perfect spiritual images of Jesus. It shall be very tempestuous as we go through the daily trials and temptations of Justification.

4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

we live in that heaven with Him and He calls us every day, as He judges us to remake us in the image of Jesus.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Saints are those who have given themselves to God and walk in his way, which is what the rest of the verse means. Sacrifice was required until the sacrifice of Jesus.

6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

"his" refers to the "saints" righteousness. "Selah" is a recurring Hebrew word that is never translated, it means, "the wise drink here."

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God.

 

[ELECT]

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two
chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD] 1 Thessalonians 4 1 Corinthians 15
4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come 15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming
4:14 - sleep 15:51 - sleep
4:16 - shout, voice, trump 15:52 - the trumpet shall sound
4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first 15:52 - dead shall be raised



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[ELECT]

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two
chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.


1 Thessalonians 4
4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come
4:14 - sleep
4:16 - shout, voice, trump
4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first


1 Corinthians 15
15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming
15:51 - sleep
15:52 - the trumpet shall sound
15:52 - dead shall be raised

 

[ELECT]

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them all away
24:42 - watch




As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order.
There are not two different aspects of the Second Coming of Jesus.
There is only one Second Coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

 

[ELECT]

The original meaning of the name zion, is a beauiful life starting with knowledge (of God) that is what awaits us in His Kingdom. along with the perfection of our souls as God recreates us into perfect spiritual images of Jesus.


God comes to each and every soul, and deals with them "one on one" and uses this "fire" which is devouring our "desire to sin," as God remakes us into perfect spiritual images of Jesus. It shall be very tempestuous as we go through the daily trials and temptations of Justification.


we live in that heaven with Him and He calls us every day, as He judges us to remake us in the image of Jesus.
[/COLOR]

Saints are those who have given themselves to God and walk in his way, which is what the rest of the verse means. Sacrifice was required until the sacrifice of Jesus.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

"his" refers to the "saints" righteousness. "Selah" is a recurring Hebrew word that is never translated, it means, "the wise drink here."

<><===><>
Gary Sechler
With knowledge on loan from God.[/FONT][/COLOR]

This is the second coming of Jesus

 

[PlainWord]

I am not saying your reference was right... The sum might be correct but the dates might be different...
Remember we only used the dates you gave and just changed the end year...

Is it Just coincidental to have a sum of 1335? or is it really the dates???

Do we have a definite date when the war began?

if you used the Hebrew calendar converter: the 10th of AV falls on 3 August 0070.

Which are we going to used then????

What I am saying..The duration are within the Period and it could be there.

to tell you exactly, what happened 45 days prior to a date, we must determine exactly the ff:

When was the daily sacrifice was taken away...

and...
We differ on the understanding of the Aod...so it is impossible to agree on something.

AD 73 is the traditional end date for Masada. It is the year given on the official Masada site.

Massada (masada), Israel

Biblical dates and numbers are hugely significant. I believe that the time from the temple to Masada being exactly 1 year short of 1,335 days is most interesting. It tells us that this was a type of the events to come. Josephus wrote that 6,000 Roman soldiers died in Jerusalem the first day of their attack and we know from Rev 11:13 that 7,000 will die in the great earthquake to come.

As for trying to figure out what happened 45 days prior to the end of Masada is an exercise in futility. Nothing from that period fits the A of D. Again, Daniel tells us that the A of D will be set up 1,290 from the day the daily sacrifices are taken away. It AD 70 the temple was destroyed. This is the same day the daily sacrifices ended. Move ahead 1,290 days and there was no temple and no Jews left in Jerusalem. Masada was destroyed by then. Don't forget, Jesus gives the command to flee Judea when the A of D is seen. But in AD 74 there was nobody left to flee.

Lastly we don't know exactly what the A of D of the future is but we do have this clue:

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

This "image" I believe is the future, A of D.

 

[PlainWord]

When will this occur ? thanks

Psalm 50 King James Version (KJV)

1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

Nobody knows...

I will leave you this thought. It has to happen prior to this.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[PlainWord]

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two
chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.


1 Thessalonians 4
4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come
4:14 - sleep
4:16 - shout, voice, trump
4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first


1 Corinthians 15
15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming
15:51 - sleep
15:52 - the trumpet shall sound
15:52 - dead shall be raised

I have no problems putting these two passages together. However, I do not place this at some Pre-Trib Rapture. The "Lord" mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16 is God the Father, not the Son. Looking at verse 14 we see it is God who brings those who sleep in Jesus.

 

[PlainWord]

1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them all away
24:42 - watch




As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order.
There are not two different aspects of the Second Coming of Jesus.
There is only one Second Coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

I agree, there is no earlier rapture or additional returning of Christ. You are correct to continue 1 Thes 4 into 1 Thes 5. This is a continuation that Pre-Tribbers never do.

 

[PlainWord]

Zechariah 14:5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints Jesus comes with are angels while the saints He comes for are the people

Good for you!! You are one of the only people (besides me) who sees a coming of Christ and a coming of the Father. Way to go!!!

Not just angels, Jesus also comes with the martyred from the Tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Jude 1:14 NKJV Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

 

[watcher2013]

AD 73 is the traditional end date for Masada. It is the year given on the official Masada site.

Massada (masada), Israel

Biblical dates and numbers are hugely significant. I believe that the time from the temple to Masada being exactly 1 year short of 1,335 days is most interesting. It tells us that this was a type of the events to come. Josephus wrote that 6,000 Roman soldiers died in Jerusalem the first day of their attack and we know from Rev 11:13 that 7,000 will die in the great earthquake to come.

As for trying to figure out what happened 45 days prior to the end of Masada is an exercise in futility. Nothing from that period fits the A of D. Again, Daniel tells us that the A of D will be set up 1,290 from the day the daily sacrifices are taken away. It AD 70 the temple was destroyed. This is the same day the daily sacrifices ended. Move ahead 1,290 days and there was no temple and no Jews left in Jerusalem. Masada was destroyed by then. Don't forget, Jesus gives the command to flee Judea when the A of D is seen. But in AD 74 there was nobody left to flee.

Lastly we don't know exactly what the A of D of the future is but we do have this clue:

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

This "image" I believe is the future, A of D.

Using your understanding of Daniel 1290 days:
You understand that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away first then after 1290 days the Aod shall be set up...

Can you please relate this story to matthew 24 with the Antichrist?

How the story will unfold?

 

[crossnote]

When? It happens on page 1037 of my bible.

 

[watcher2013]

Between Israel and Palestine.

The peace treaty will be signed, the third temple will be built. The antichrist will come in with a false world peace with the false prophet backing him. People will be fooled into accepting his and will believe he is good when it is a false front.

Since you gave a specific nations, we just have to wait then.

A lot will not know it is him until he stands in the temple and claims to be God. Some will still follow him because of the miracles performed by the false prophet, they will believe that he is divine.

I think this statement need some revisiting due to the following reasons:
1. You understand that the covenant is a peace treaty
2. You understand that the peace treaty is between Israel and Palestine
3. you understand that the peace treaty shall include the rebuilding of the temple

If in case that is the agreement , Don't you think you can identity the antichrist, even before the agreement is implemented?

 

[PlainWord]

Using your understanding of Daniel 1290 days:
You understand that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away first then after 1290 days the Aod shall be set up...

How the story will unfold?

Yes, well, that's what the Bible teaches.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Do you see this meaning anything else???

So, I see this relating to Mat 24 right here. We have the resumption of the Daily Sacrifices at some point in the future, likely after a new Temple is built. Then we have outrage from the world over the killing of helpless animals. It will be seen as barbaric. Then we come to this verse.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Once this Abomination is set up, people are to flee. Why? I think because there will be a vicious attack on Israel and Christians. It will be open season on both. It will involve the False Christ. Personally I think the Rapture Doctrine will be used by the False Christ to bring out those Christians who have fallen for the lie. It will be a Global killing event on a massive scale.

This killing will go on for 45 days.

 

[watcher2013]

Yes, well, that's what the Bible teaches.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Do you see this meaning anything else???

So, I see this relating to Mat 24 right here. We have the resumption of the Daily Sacrifices at some point in the future, likely after a new Temple is built. Then we have outrage from the world over the killing of helpless animals. It will be seen as barbaric. Then we come to this verse.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Once this Abomination is set up, people are to flee. Why? I think because there will be a vicious attack on Israel and Christians. It will be open season on both. It will involve the False Christ. Personally I think the Rapture Doctrine will be used by the False Christ to bring out those Christians who have fallen for the lie. It will be a Global killing event on a massive scale.

This killing will go on for 45 days.

so who will stop the daily sacrifices???

and 1290 days after that...your false Christ will enter the temple, is that it?

 

[GaryA]

Daniel 12:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


And from the time [ that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, ] there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The abomination of desolation occurs at the start of the 1290 days.

The next question to answer is:

"There shall be 1290 days -- from the abomination of desolation -- until what [ exactly ] ... ???"

 

[PlainWord]

Daniel 12:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


And from the time [ that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, ] there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The abomination of desolation occurs at the start of the 1290 days.

The next question to answer is:

"There shall be 1290 days -- from the abomination of desolation -- until what [ exactly ] ... ???"

Interesting way to look at this passage. Okay, if that's the correct way (and I'm always open to different ideas) what does come next???

The end of Masada doesn't fit. The destruction of the Temple in AD 70 also doesn't fit because once the temple was destroyed (which ended the sacrifices) there was no temple to set anything up in.

Nothing from the Maccabees Revolt era that I'm aware fits 1,290 days after the Sacrifices are halted and the AofD is set up. Let's assume it's future. What is happening during this war of Dan 11? Here's the start (according to Gary)

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

What's the next major thing? There are some back and forth things happening, good and bad people fighting and carrying out exploits, etc. Then we come to this.

36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Is this it? Is it 1,290 days until the Man of Sin declares himself to be God???

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What happens when this "person" declares himself to be God?? He doesn't just declare it, he proves it. He does these things...
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

which agrees with Rev 13:

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
These great signs he uses to deceive...

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
The question then becomes what happens to those who are deceived???

The answer is right there above in 2 Thes 2:10, they perish.

 

[PlainWord]

Temple is violated
Sacrifices taken away
Abomination of Desolation set up

1,290 days pass:

Man of Sin declares to be God
M of S does miracles
Forces all to worship him or be killed

45 days later:

Christ returns???? Those Days are shortened for the sake of the Elect????