When does the rapture occur?

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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According to your scholars Dan 11 up to verse 34 were fulfilled...and that includes verse 31

and according to Josephus there was AoD during Antiochus IV

from Book 1
. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months

and in 1 Maccabees 1
54 Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
Watcher,

How can Jesus be providing a warning/command to His disciples (or anyone else) about an event that already happened some 200 years in their past? I agree there was an Abomination by Antiochus IV. But that was 200 years prior to Christ giving the warning. There was no A of D during Titus.

The daily sacrifice was taken away by the burning of the temple. According to Daniel, the A of D would be set up 1,290 days later. Was it set up in AD 74? If so, where was it set up and what was it? There was no temple or sanctuary fortress left in AD 74. Also, did the end of days occur in AD 74?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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[TABLE="width: 96"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]August 20[/TD]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]11 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Sept[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Oct[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Nov[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Dec[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]31 [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 96"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]Jan[/TD]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Feb[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Mar[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Apr[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]106[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TABLE="width: 192"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]133[/TD]
[TD="width: 128, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]August 20, 0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]71[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]365[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]366[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]73[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]365[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]74[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]106[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]April 16, 0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Total 1335

blessed are those who COME (alive) and wait till 1335...not blessed are those in Masada....
those who survived the Jewish war...
Yes. Your math is correct and mine was wrong. While very interesting, tell me what happened 45 days prior to April 16, 74 AD? The A of D should be set up on that date? If so, what was it and where was it placed?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
The thing is if you believe the AOD mentioned in the gospels of the NT is a past event, then your math would be wrong on all accounts.

The AOD happens at the time of the antichrist in the end of days/tribulation period as he goes into the temple and claims to be God. This event has not happened yet. Similar events have taken place, but not to the extent of the AOD Jesus talked about in the gospels for an end time event.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Daniel 11 was fulfilled...The Aod of verse Dan11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV.

In Mat 24, Christ was talking of future abomination...stand in holy place..
Holy place may mean ... the holy of holies, the temple or Jerusalem (the Holy Land).
We know that Mat 24, Mark 13 and luke 21 are parallel events:

and this is undeniable:

Luke:Luk 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Mark
Mar 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mat 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
THE AoD of Mat and Mark is when you see JERUSALEM COMPASSED WITH ARMIES...
Please turn your attention again to this verse:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Daniel uses the term, "Abomination of Desolation" just twice in Dan 11:31 and 12:11. He uses the word, "Abomination" just twice in the same two passages. He uses the word, "Desolation" three times, twice in the aforementioned and once in Dan 8:13. We also have the famous Dan 9:27 which uses the words, "desolate" and "abominations."

Again, Jesus invokes Daniel's use of the phrase, "Abomination of Desolation" and provides a command/warning to flee in AD 30-33 time frame. Jesus simply could not be talking about an event that happened in 167 BC. He must be talking about an event future to AD 30-33. So tell me, Watcher" which passage in Daniel was Jesus discussing in Mat 24:15????? You state unequivocally that it was Dan 11:31 but that's impossible if that passage dealt with Antiochus IV.

Clearly, Daniel 12:11 is at the end of days. This reference refers back to Dan 11:31 or Dan 9:27 or Dan 8:13. Which one does it refer back to?

Antiochus does not fit because he was in the past to Jesus. Titus doesn't fit Dan 12:11 because there was no Abomination of Desolation set up 1,290 days after the Temple was destroyed. Titus doesn't fit the King from Dan 11 either because Titus was married twice and never declared himself to be God. Also, Antiochus IV doesn't fit as he too was married with FIVE Children.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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When does the transporting of believers to the clouds with Jesus occur at the Second Coming of Christ?

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately , saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jesus gives His disciples (and us) the things that will happen as signs of the times. and then.......

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Then he says...........
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Would just like to throw this out there, could heaven here be the region above the sidereal heavens, where God dwells and other heavenly beings? Note also that "four winds" or "Anemos" in the Greek has an attached meaning as being one extreme of heaven to the other, so this would seem to also indicate a trumpet that involves a gathering of those in heaven, not a gathering from the four corners of the earth. Just an alternate view the Lord could be gathering His raptured saints from years earlier, to actually return with Him to earth in this passage. (I believe people are hung up on the mistaken idea a trumpet is only used once, all trumpets the same reference in scripture, as opposed to the trumpet of God being a signal He would use at various times. The yo-yo rapture theory makes no sense, up to the sky, and back down to earth in a U-turn, where all on the earth left of the tribulation would have to be unsaved, goats the Lord judges, then who to repopulate the millennial earth?What other time would sheep be separated from goats? At the end of the millennium is the great white throne judgment, the second death, the last resurrection not a holy one.) This event in Matthew is also, obviously, of the actual second coming of the Lord to the earth, at the end of the tribulation. I believe the raptured saints will be able to explore heaven for a time, before the Lord returns in plain sight, with His raptured saints, to defeat the armies at Armageddon and rule with His saints.

(By the way, I'm just throwing this out there, and, of course, post whatever you wish, but this is a matter I'm content with, that is, not, myself, looking to debate anything. This is merely a contribution, for you to consider or whatever.)

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Revelation 19:11-14)

Interesting that Enoch, himself, was raptured, alive, how he should comment on this so long before Christ, isn't it?

May as well hog a little space, other rapture related verses that may interest some of you which provide a good picture of all these things. After all, a lot of other people hog whole screens, over, as if, how many angels may fit on the head of a pin,

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Interesting of Geneva Bible: 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition, which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work; only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Psalms 27:4-5 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple. For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers [wedding chambers], and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
 

Wall

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Mar 13, 2013
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Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Revelation 19:11-14)

Interesting that Enoch, himself, was raptured, alive, how he should comment on this so long before Christ, isn't it?
JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. Not speakin of those who were raptured {actually there is no rapture}


DEUT.33 [1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.[2] And he said, THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and HE CAME WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.[3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.[4] Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.

So if the “ten thousands of saints” in Jude are those that were raptured, who are the “ten thousands of saints” in Deuteronomy that were coming round the mountain before the death of Moses, and why werent they allowed to cometh?
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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As for when the 1Cor.15 and 1Thes.4 event occurs, just let scripture interpret scripture

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord, which occurs AFTER the tribulation period
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Or you can just prove this out of the new testamant

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

In Isaiah 26 we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child” in both 1Thes. and Isaiah 26. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both 1Thes. and Isaiah 26. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the what for in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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Another thing that bothers me. The Rapturist claim we are brought to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Theres not even one scripture that actually says that. Lest im missing something
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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Yes. Your math is correct and mine was wrong. While very interesting, tell me what happened 45 days prior to April 16, 74 AD? The A of D should be set up on that date? If so, what was it and where was it placed?
I am not saying your reference was right... The sum might be correct but the dates might be different...
Remember we only used the dates you gave and just changed the end year...

Is it Just coincidental to have a sum of 1335? or is it really the dates???

Do we have a definite date when the war began?

if you used the Hebrew calendar converter: the 10th of AV falls on 3 August 0070.

Which are we going to used then????

What I am saying..The duration are within the Period and it could be there.

to tell you exactly, what happened 45 days prior to a date, we must determine exactly the ff:

When was the daily sacrifice was taken away...

and...
We differ on the understanding of the Aod...so it is impossible to agree on something.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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Watcher,

How can Jesus be providing a warning/command to His disciples (or anyone else) about an event that already happened some 200 years in their past? I agree there was an Abomination by Antiochus IV. But that was 200 years prior to Christ giving the warning. There was no A of D during Titus.
You are searching something that differs from your understanding: instead of searching for things that was fulfilled during the Roman Jewish war...

1. Was the daily sacrifices taken away? YES
2. Was there DESOLATION after: YES
3. Was Jerusalem compassed by armies (Luke) ? YES

Was your interpretation of the Aod differ from luke? YES

We were not there and there was no precise records of the dates...But what we have are the fulfilment of prophecies...

Here is some link regarding the Jewish war and the destruction of temple by Philip Scaff...Under the destruction of the city and the temple...He mentioned that the Roman placed the eagle on the shapeless ruin...thus fulfilling the Aod...

I do not agree nor disagree with the story, but I guess he did some research before arriving at that conclusion...

The text said...standing in Holy place... IT DID NOT SAY while the temple still standing... THE HOLY PLACE MAY MEAN JERUSALEM...Or as you interpreted it...inside the temple...OR it also Maybe in Place where it was....


The daily sacrifice was taken away by the burning of the temple. According to Daniel, the A of D would be set up 1,290 days later. Was it set up in AD 74? If so, where was it set up and what was it? There was no temple or sanctuary fortress left in AD 74. Also, did the end of days occur in AD 74?
It is good that at least you have considered that the daily sacrifices was taken away...

The only question now, Is your interpretation of the abomination of Desolation correct?

Did the end of days end at 74, obviously Not...But is your interpretation right?

prior to the verse;
Dan 12:7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What shall be the end of these things????

SCATTERING or GATHERING?

IS THE END OF DAYS ABOUT SCATTERING OR GATHERING?
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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Please turn your attention again to this verse:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Daniel uses the term, "Abomination of Desolation" just twice in Dan 11:31 and 12:11. He uses the word, "Abomination" just twice in the same two passages. He uses the word, "Desolation" three times, twice in the aforementioned and once in Dan 8:13. We also have the famous Dan 9:27 which uses the words, "desolate" and "abominations

Again, Jesus invokes Daniel's use of the phrase, "Abomination of Desolation" and provides a command/warning to flee in AD 30-33 time frame. Jesus simply could not be talking about an event that happened in 167 BC. He must be talking about an event future to AD 30-33.
Yes he was talking of the event future to AD30-33 which was the Jewish-Roman war that lead to the destruction of temple on AD70.

AD 70 was future to AD30-33

instead of playing with words...
understand what was fulfilled:
1. daily sacrifice was taken away
2. There was desolation
3. The destruction of the city and sanctuary was mentioned in Daniel
4. there was great tribulation during those days as described by Josephus.

So tell me, Watcher" which passage in Daniel was Jesus discussing in Mat 24:15????? You state unequivocally that it was Dan 11:31 but that's impossible if that passage dealt with Antiochus IV.
I keep saying. DANIEL 11:31 was fulfilled during the reign of Antiochus IV. So Jesus was not referring to that passage of Daniel. (It was fulfilled ages ago)

In Matthew 24, Jesus was referring to the Future which was the JEWISH-ROMAN War that led to the destruction of the temple. FUTURE OF AD-30-33...



Clearly, Daniel 12:11 is at the end of days. This reference refers back to Dan 11:31 or Dan 9:27 or Dan 8:13. Which one does it refer back to?

Antiochus does not fit because he was in the past to Jesus. Titus doesn't fit Dan 12:11 because there was no Abomination of Desolation set up 1,290 days after the Temple was destroyed. Titus doesn't fit the King from Dan 11 either because Titus was married twice and never declared himself to be God. Also, Antiochus IV doesn't fit as he too was married with FIVE Children.
As previously explain:
About your understanding of Aod

DID TYRUS WENT INTO THE TEMPLE?
Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God...

Was tyrus a Man?
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee

IF HE was a one MAN...how come STRANGERS (MANY) SHOOULD COME AGAINST HIM
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

You see...Prophecies contains figurative speech...

There was no record that Tyrus (the area of Lebanon) went inside the 1st Temple...and Yet it was said He sit on the seat of God...
Is this the abomination of Desolation of the first temple????

Daniel 12 prophecy pertains to the period in the end of Days... In fact Peter referenced Joel during the Pentecost and implied that IT WAS THE LAST DAYS. Pentecost was before AD 70.

Just a Reminder:

DANIEL 11:31 Was already fulfilled...
Josephus mentioned it...YOUR SCHOLARS AGREE THAT up to verse 34 was fulfilled...
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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The thing is if you believe the AOD mentioned in the gospels of the NT is a past event, then your math would be wrong on all accounts.

The AOD happens at the time of the antichrist in the end of days/tribulation period as he goes into the temple and claims to be God. This event has not happened yet. Similar events have taken place, but not to the extent of the AOD Jesus talked about in the gospels for an end time event.
I asked you what is the TREATY.....and you haven't answer this.

NOW, WHO IS THE ANTI-CHRIST?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I asked you what is the TREATY.....and you haven't answer this.

NOW, WHO IS THE ANTI-CHRIST?

The treaty is a seven year peace treaty, and as for the antichrist we don't know for he has not come to power yet.

Or better yet I should say has not come out publically and showed who he is like the bible says he will do, by pronouncing himself to be God.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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The treaty is a seven year peace treaty, and as for the antichrist we don't know for he has not come to power yet.

Or better yet I should say has not come out publically and showed who he is like the bible says he will do, by pronouncing himself to be God.
Seven year peace treaty with what country? ISrael and who?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Yes he was talking of the event future to AD30-33 which was the Jewish-Roman war that lead to the destruction of temple on AD70.

AD 70 was future to AD30-33

instead of playing with words...
understand what was fulfilled:
1. daily sacrifice was taken away
2. There was desolation
3. The destruction of the city and sanctuary was mentioned in Daniel
4. there was great tribulation during those days as described by Josephus.



I keep saying. DANIEL 11:31 was fulfilled during the reign of Antiochus IV. So Jesus was not referring to that passage of Daniel. (It was fulfilled ages ago)

In Matthew 24, Jesus was referring to the Future which was the JEWISH-ROMAN War that led to the destruction of the temple. FUTURE OF AD-30-33...





As previously explain:
About your understanding of Aod

DID TYRUS WENT INTO THE TEMPLE?
Eze 28:1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Eze 28:2Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God...

Was tyrus a Man?
Eze 28:9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee

IF HE was a one MAN...how come STRANGERS (MANY) SHOOULD COME AGAINST HIM
Eze 28:7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

You see...Prophecies contains figurative speech...

There was no record that Tyrus (the area of Lebanon) went inside the 1st Temple...and Yet it was said He sit on the seat of God...
Is this the abomination of Desolation of the first temple????

Daniel 12 prophecy pertains to the period in the end of Days... In fact Peter referenced Joel during the Pentecost and implied that IT WAS THE LAST DAYS. Pentecost was before AD 70.

Just a Reminder:

DANIEL 11:31 Was already fulfilled...
Josephus mentioned it...YOUR SCHOLARS AGREE THAT up to verse 34 was fulfilled...
Tyre was a nation that was built on wealth, and the scripture you give from Ezekiel is not of some one going into Israel.

Tyre was a separate nation, and the warning in Ezekiel was to the prince of that nation how God was going to bring other nations against him to defile his splendor. Make them pay for putting their faith in materialistic things instead of God.

This has nothing to do with the AOD, of the antichrist entering the temple and claiming to be God.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Seven year peace treaty with what country? ISrael and who?
Between Israel and Palestine.

The peace treaty will be signed, the third temple will be built. The antichrist will come in with a false world peace with the false prophet backing him. People will be fooled into accepting his and will believe he is good when it is a false front. A lot will not know it is him until he stands in the temple and claims to be God. Some will still follow him because of the miracles performed by the false prophet, they will believe that he is divine.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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When does the transporting of believers to the clouds with Jesus occur at the Second Coming of Christ?

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately , saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jesus gives His disciples (and us) the things that will happen as signs of the times. and then.......

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Then he says...........
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:15-17 do not confirm Mat 24:29-31. First off, 1 Cor 15:51-52 makes no mention of Christ or any gathering. It is simply a transformation which occurs at the End of Days.

1 Thes 4:15-17 does not mention Christ as the one returning and doing the "catching up." Look back at verse 14. Clearly it is God doing the "coming" here and the "catching up." God catches up, Christ sends His angels to "gather."

Gather vs. Catching up.

Nowhere in 1 Thes 4 is there a transformation of living taking place.

Nowhere in Mat 24:29-31 is there a transformation of living taking place.

These are assumptions.