When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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I see things pretty much the same way for America. We just don't seem to be a major player in the end times or at least we don't get clearly mentioned. There is one reference that suggests we do provide Israel with "a little help" as they go through Jacob's Trouble.
Daniel 11:34 NKJV
Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.
There is also a passage from Isaiah that could be discussing America.
Isaiah 18:7 NKJV
In that time a present will be brought to the Lord of hosts From a people tall and smooth of skin, And from a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide-- To the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, To Mount Zion.
However, I agree, we could be destroyed or badly damaged or it could be we have an administration who is withdrawn from asserting our military strength abroad (like now), or it could be we largely turn our backs on Israel (like now) but come around later in a future administration. We could also be crippled with debt and not able to afford another major military campaign (like now). We shall see.
Daniel 11:34 NKJV
Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.
There is also a passage from Isaiah that could be discussing America.
Isaiah 18:7 NKJV
In that time a present will be brought to the Lord of hosts From a people tall and smooth of skin, And from a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide-- To the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, To Mount Zion.
However, I agree, we could be destroyed or badly damaged or it could be we have an administration who is withdrawn from asserting our military strength abroad (like now), or it could be we largely turn our backs on Israel (like now) but come around later in a future administration. We could also be crippled with debt and not able to afford another major military campaign (like now). We shall see.
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Satan's Tribulation makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up too. But clearly, the Great Tribulation is of Satan. Since all the "little" tribulations are of Satan should it be a shock to some that the Great Tribulation is Satan's normal tribulation of Jews and Christians on steroids? I mean, really?? It's so obvious. Once the Abomination of Desolation is set up, the Great Tribulation begins. Since the Abomination is of Satan then so is the Great Tribulation which follows.
It's clear, God has to intervene and stop Satan for "the sake of the ELECT" or else, no flesh would be left alive. God doesn't need to put a stop to His own actions to stop killing His own people. That would be crazy to think. It is Satan who comes to earth having "GREAT WRATH." It is Satan who is overcoming the Saints - Not God. It is clear, this continues until "the Ancient of Days" appears and stops it.
Just look what's happening now with ISIS. 24,000 Christians killed or sold into slavery and counting. They are just getting started. This doesn't stop at some Pre-Trib Rapture. It stops after the Tribulation when the LORD comes and stops it.
Dan 7:
21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
When does it stop? The above is consistent with and totally agrees with Christ's own account from Mat 24.
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
They aren't told to flee because God is going to do harm to believers. God is warning us to flee. God doesn't have to protect us from Himself. They are told to flee because Satan is going to do harm.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Who shortens the days??? God does, or Jesus does.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
Don't believe it why? Because he isn't Christ - it is the Man of Sin claiming to be above all called God or Allah or anything else worshiped.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Now the forces of evil are gathered at Armageddon to make their final assault on Israel. It looks like nothing can stop them now. But wait...
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...
Oh no, here comes the Son of Man and there are scared to death now.
Rev 6:
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Satan is so successful in killing Jews and Christians that there is a whole multitude in heaven who "come out of Great Tribulation." This multitude is from all over the world, from every nation, tribe and tongue. This is why Christ makes the below statement which not only confirms that few of faith will remain but also affirms that there will be revenge for what Satan has been doing. We see this in the 5th seal and we see it here in Luke 18:
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
This is the same ELECT Jesus mentions in Mat 24 and the same Paul discusses below in 2 Thes 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...
Rev 16:
1 ..."Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
It is Satan's Great Tribulation people. God's wrath comes after and in response to it.
It's clear, God has to intervene and stop Satan for "the sake of the ELECT" or else, no flesh would be left alive. God doesn't need to put a stop to His own actions to stop killing His own people. That would be crazy to think. It is Satan who comes to earth having "GREAT WRATH." It is Satan who is overcoming the Saints - Not God. It is clear, this continues until "the Ancient of Days" appears and stops it.
Just look what's happening now with ISIS. 24,000 Christians killed or sold into slavery and counting. They are just getting started. This doesn't stop at some Pre-Trib Rapture. It stops after the Tribulation when the LORD comes and stops it.
Dan 7:
21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
When does it stop? The above is consistent with and totally agrees with Christ's own account from Mat 24.
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
They aren't told to flee because God is going to do harm to believers. God is warning us to flee. God doesn't have to protect us from Himself. They are told to flee because Satan is going to do harm.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Who shortens the days??? God does, or Jesus does.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
Don't believe it why? Because he isn't Christ - it is the Man of Sin claiming to be above all called God or Allah or anything else worshiped.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Now the forces of evil are gathered at Armageddon to make their final assault on Israel. It looks like nothing can stop them now. But wait...
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...
Oh no, here comes the Son of Man and there are scared to death now.
Rev 6:
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Satan is so successful in killing Jews and Christians that there is a whole multitude in heaven who "come out of Great Tribulation." This multitude is from all over the world, from every nation, tribe and tongue. This is why Christ makes the below statement which not only confirms that few of faith will remain but also affirms that there will be revenge for what Satan has been doing. We see this in the 5th seal and we see it here in Luke 18:
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
This is the same ELECT Jesus mentions in Mat 24 and the same Paul discusses below in 2 Thes 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...
Rev 16:
1 ..."Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
It is Satan's Great Tribulation people. God's wrath comes after and in response to it.
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"WE will not like it
. But the good news is I don't think the Tribulation will truly be a global event of the same ferocity that it will be in the Middle East. There are many reasons why this could be true but I won't take the time to share it now..."
What does this look like to you? [Psalms 2; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 16:1-21]
And Satan will not run the Lord's coming judgment period of the tribulation .... he will be a victim of the same
In fact Satan would rather have things go on the way they are today .... deceiving billions and killing them
.... but he will be kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth .... and he knows his time will be short
So he will rage in agony to prevent the Lord's coming millennial kingdom
. But the good news is I don't think the Tribulation will truly be a global event of the same ferocity that it will be in the Middle East. There are many reasons why this could be true but I won't take the time to share it now..."What does this look like to you? [Psalms 2; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 16:1-21]
And Satan will not run the Lord's coming judgment period of the tribulation .... he will be a victim of the same
In fact Satan would rather have things go on the way they are today .... deceiving billions and killing them
.... but he will be kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth .... and he knows his time will be short
So he will rage in agony to prevent the Lord's coming millennial kingdom
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"WE will not like it. But the good news is I don't think the Tribulation will truly be a global event of the same ferocity that it will be in the Middle East. There are many reasons why this could be true but I won't take the time to share it now..."
What does this look like to you? [Psalms 2; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 16:1-21]
And Satan will not run the Lord's coming judgment period of the tribulation .... he will be a victim of the same
In fact Satan would rather have things go on the way they are today .... deceiving billions and killing them
.... but he will be kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth .... and he knows his time will be short
So he will rage in agony to prevent the Lord's coming millennial kingdom
. But the good news is I don't think the Tribulation will truly be a global event of the same ferocity that it will be in the Middle East. There are many reasons why this could be true but I won't take the time to share it now..."What does this look like to you? [Psalms 2; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 16:1-21]
And Satan will not run the Lord's coming judgment period of the tribulation .... he will be a victim of the same
In fact Satan would rather have things go on the way they are today .... deceiving billions and killing them
.... but he will be kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth .... and he knows his time will be short
So he will rage in agony to prevent the Lord's coming millennial kingdom
What do you think, that Satan comes down having a short period of time to just continue what he has been doing these past 6,000 years or does he turn up the "heat" a little bit?
Again, God does not need to "cut short" His wrath to save His Elect. HE cuts short Satan's tribulation to save His elect. Keep looking at it through this lens and maybe you will get it.
You have to get rid of this idea that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all contained within this 7 year tribulation period. Nothing tells us this, except speculation. The tribulation is the 4th Seal. God's wrath is contained within the Bowls. The Trumpets provide more details about the rise of Islam.
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Please get your facts straight. Post tribulation is the teaching from Christ all the way to Darby in 1830. You endorse the recent school of thought that has taken the fundamentalists by storm. For Pre-trib to be true there would have to be a Rapture lesson contained right around here.
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
-----------------> Insert Rapture return here.
14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Oops there is no earlier return taught here. What does Christ say in Mat 13:23?? Something about having told (them) all things??? Don't you think not mentioning an earlier return whereby He snatches off the planet hundreds of millions of Believers (of which His disciples were) is a big enough event to at least mention in passing? But nope. He says NOTHING even when He was asked about the signs leading up to His return. Would the Rapture return be considered a sign of the end? I kinda think so, don't you???
There is Absolutely no passage that describes an earlier, cloud only return. There is no mention of anyone being whisked off to heaven. There is no concept of a Tribulation Era Saint, no Left Behind stories. None of these key Rapture tenants can be found. Only one return after Satan's Tribulation is actually taught.
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
-----------------> Insert Rapture return here.
14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Oops there is no earlier return taught here. What does Christ say in Mat 13:23?? Something about having told (them) all things??? Don't you think not mentioning an earlier return whereby He snatches off the planet hundreds of millions of Believers (of which His disciples were) is a big enough event to at least mention in passing? But nope. He says NOTHING even when He was asked about the signs leading up to His return. Would the Rapture return be considered a sign of the end? I kinda think so, don't you???
There is Absolutely no passage that describes an earlier, cloud only return. There is no mention of anyone being whisked off to heaven. There is no concept of a Tribulation Era Saint, no Left Behind stories. None of these key Rapture tenants can be found. Only one return after Satan's Tribulation is actually taught.
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"
"Again, Satan's Tribulation comes first"
Again you are dead wrong .... don't let Satan the "wrath bringer" snooker you into a corner
This one has you calling him what he wants to be .... get it?
It is really quite pathetic to see you fumbling around with your proving
Tell the forum how you meddle with the following in order to support your post tribulation view:
You say Satan's wrath .... all one has to do is to read Revelation's unfolding to see where the judgments are coming from
You even deny this [Revelation 17:16-18] .... who is controlling the devil?
You say "on" the last day .... never is this recorded in scripture .... always "in" or "at" .... depicting a time frame "the Day of the Lord" .... not just one day at the end of the tribulation .... the Lord's "raising" action will occur more than "once on one day" ... as you tell
You say "the day of the devil" instead of the "day of the Lord"..... this is backward thinking .... you left your back door open
Do you not know that the "day of the Lord" over a predetermined time lapse will involve many days of notable events that are scheduled .... and that after those days of His judgment He will appear to the mortal survivors of the same [Matthew 24:29-31]
You say no millennial kingdom beginning with the believing surviving mortals of the tribulation period .... this is a direct contradiction of the prophetic scriptures .... your view prevents this truth
Your entire post tribulation view is a fabrication that you have learned from the theology's pied pipers .... better check them out .... they have deceived you
Do I really care .... no
It is people like you who go on and on pushing your reprobate theology for what ever reason that should be ignored
Believe what you want .... the only warning is that you should be aware of what has happened to you
The Lord says [Revelation 3:10] .... you say no way
Revelation views the pre-tribulation of the Lord's ecclesia in a state of immortality just before and during the coming days of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon the earth [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones]
Here is your warning from the Lord [Psalms 2; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
.... better check your oil and close you back door .... the Lord will spit out those who claim to be His followers and at the same time refute His promises
And He is going to close the door .... this closing is not scheduled for the end of the tribulation
There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring Him death
You say that such a promise of the Lords to keep His own from His wrath is a lie of the devil .... what?
Then you try to tell that His coming wrath is the devil's doing
And then you have the audacity to claim that those who take the Lord at His word will end up in the tribulation and will be deceived by the devil since they are idiots and know nothing about Revelation's unfolding
Do you think that true believers are ignorant of the scriptures and do not know anything about the coming Day of the Lord?
Do you think that they are of these [Mathew 24:36-39]?
Just what are you doing?
"Again, Satan's Tribulation comes first"
Again you are dead wrong .... don't let Satan the "wrath bringer" snooker you into a corner
This one has you calling him what he wants to be .... get it?
It is really quite pathetic to see you fumbling around with your proving
Tell the forum how you meddle with the following in order to support your post tribulation view:
You say Satan's wrath .... all one has to do is to read Revelation's unfolding to see where the judgments are coming from
You even deny this [Revelation 17:16-18] .... who is controlling the devil?
You say "on" the last day .... never is this recorded in scripture .... always "in" or "at" .... depicting a time frame "the Day of the Lord" .... not just one day at the end of the tribulation .... the Lord's "raising" action will occur more than "once on one day" ... as you tell
You say "the day of the devil" instead of the "day of the Lord"..... this is backward thinking .... you left your back door open
Do you not know that the "day of the Lord" over a predetermined time lapse will involve many days of notable events that are scheduled .... and that after those days of His judgment He will appear to the mortal survivors of the same [Matthew 24:29-31]
You say no millennial kingdom beginning with the believing surviving mortals of the tribulation period .... this is a direct contradiction of the prophetic scriptures .... your view prevents this truth
Your entire post tribulation view is a fabrication that you have learned from the theology's pied pipers .... better check them out .... they have deceived you
Do I really care .... no
It is people like you who go on and on pushing your reprobate theology for what ever reason that should be ignored
Believe what you want .... the only warning is that you should be aware of what has happened to you
The Lord says [Revelation 3:10] .... you say no way
Revelation views the pre-tribulation of the Lord's ecclesia in a state of immortality just before and during the coming days of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon the earth [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those on thrones]
Here is your warning from the Lord [Psalms 2; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
.... better check your oil and close you back door .... the Lord will spit out those who claim to be His followers and at the same time refute His promises
And He is going to close the door .... this closing is not scheduled for the end of the tribulation
There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring Him death
You say that such a promise of the Lords to keep His own from His wrath is a lie of the devil .... what?
Then you try to tell that His coming wrath is the devil's doing
And then you have the audacity to claim that those who take the Lord at His word will end up in the tribulation and will be deceived by the devil since they are idiots and know nothing about Revelation's unfolding
Do you think that true believers are ignorant of the scriptures and do not know anything about the coming Day of the Lord?
Do you think that they are of these [Mathew 24:36-39]?
Just what are you doing?
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G
Here is a list of the "highlights" of the End TImes Scenario ( as I see it ) :
Please consider each passage in view of the '~' event markers / identifiers.
[ Order of Events ] ( NOT an exhaustive list ) { modified }
~ tribulation period starts
Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22
~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4
~ tribulation period ends
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
~ two witnesses; trumpet events
Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3
~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )
Acts 2:20
Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27
Revelation 14:14
Revelation 19:11-13,15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
~ Rapture
Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27
Revelation 14:16
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
~ Wrath of God
Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16
~ tribulation period starts
Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22
~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4
~ tribulation period ends
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
~ two witnesses; trumpet events
Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3
~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )
Acts 2:20
Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27
Revelation 14:14
Revelation 19:11-13,15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
~ Rapture
Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27
Revelation 14:16
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
~ Wrath of God
Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16
Jer 50 gives much detail and none of it fits the USA.
A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols. [SUP]39 [/SUP]“Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever,
Nor shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors,” says the Lord,
“So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]“The king of Babylon has heard the report about them,
And his hands grow feeble;
Anguish has taken hold of him,
Pangs as of a woman in childbirth.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplainof the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will make them suddenly run away from her.
Let's examine the bold and underline passages.
"Mixed Peoples" is the literal translation for "ARAB."
"Her Treasures" Saudi Arabian kings are rich. They have been spending their billions from oil on all kinds of things from diamond and gold plated Mercedes to fine paintings and art.
"Carved Images" is another term for idols and possessions.
"Insane with their idols" they have taken materialism to an extreme, far more than anything in the US. This theme is repeated in Rev 18 and the 3rd seal.
Jackals and ostriches are not indigenous to the USA. They are to Saudi Arabia although many species of jackal have become extinct, so they will make a come back.
"A people from the north" unless we think Canada is going to invade us, this does not fit the USA but it sure fits Saudi Arabia as her enemies are to the North.
"Daughter of Babylon" has no significance to the USA. But the manner of worship at MECCA is nearly identical to the method of worship of original Babylon. Compare Dan 3 to how Muslims worship at Mecca and what they worship there.
"Flood plain of Jordan" is no where near the USA, but there is a clear path from there to Saudi Arabia for her enemies to come.
A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols. [SUP]39 [/SUP]“Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever,
Nor shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors,” says the Lord,
“So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]“The king of Babylon has heard the report about them,
And his hands grow feeble;
Anguish has taken hold of him,
Pangs as of a woman in childbirth.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplainof the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will make them suddenly run away from her.
Let's examine the bold and underline passages.
"Mixed Peoples" is the literal translation for "ARAB."
"Her Treasures" Saudi Arabian kings are rich. They have been spending their billions from oil on all kinds of things from diamond and gold plated Mercedes to fine paintings and art.
"Carved Images" is another term for idols and possessions.
"Insane with their idols" they have taken materialism to an extreme, far more than anything in the US. This theme is repeated in Rev 18 and the 3rd seal.
Jackals and ostriches are not indigenous to the USA. They are to Saudi Arabia although many species of jackal have become extinct, so they will make a come back.
"A people from the north" unless we think Canada is going to invade us, this does not fit the USA but it sure fits Saudi Arabia as her enemies are to the North.
"Daughter of Babylon" has no significance to the USA. But the manner of worship at MECCA is nearly identical to the method of worship of original Babylon. Compare Dan 3 to how Muslims worship at Mecca and what they worship there.
"Flood plain of Jordan" is no where near the USA, but there is a clear path from there to Saudi Arabia for her enemies to come.
satan's Tribulation....
The events of the tribulation arise from the judgments of God being let loose thru the seals and trumpets. And while God's judgment falls upon the world because of it's following satan, I find it a bit of a stretch to call it satan's tribulation. While satan is a catalyst, the judgment is from God upon Man and satan has nothing more to do with that exchange. When you say satan's tribulation, I somehow picture satan being attributed with the loosening of the seals and trumpets and that my friend is a blasphemous thought. So I hope I'm just misunderstanding you.
So yeah, man follows satan, requiring God to loose the tribulation upon man. But that does not make it satan's tribulation.
The events of the tribulation arise from the judgments of God being let loose thru the seals and trumpets. And while God's judgment falls upon the world because of it's following satan, I find it a bit of a stretch to call it satan's tribulation. While satan is a catalyst, the judgment is from God upon Man and satan has nothing more to do with that exchange. When you say satan's tribulation, I somehow picture satan being attributed with the loosening of the seals and trumpets and that my friend is a blasphemous thought. So I hope I'm just misunderstanding you.
So yeah, man follows satan, requiring God to loose the tribulation upon man. But that does not make it satan's tribulation.
I kinda see where he's getting it, and he's not entirely wrong, but the phraseology infers something more that is entirely wrong.
See that's the thing, the time of trial is upon the world. Yes satan rules the world but the time of trial is upon the world that he rules, not him. Now, at the end of the world's trial satan is captured and bound, and later on he is cast into hell which is indeed for his trial and punishment. But the tribulation is upon man and the world, for having submitted to satan's leading.
satan's tribulation is a misnomer. It's mankind's trial, for following satan's lead.
See that's the thing, the time of trial is upon the world. Yes satan rules the world but the time of trial is upon the world that he rules, not him. Now, at the end of the world's trial satan is captured and bound, and later on he is cast into hell which is indeed for his trial and punishment. But the tribulation is upon man and the world, for having submitted to satan's leading.
satan's tribulation is a misnomer. It's mankind's trial, for following satan's lead.
The entire post tribulation theology is built upon the concept of the tribulation period not being the period of the Lord's judgment, but the period of Satan's wrath
This is used to push the Lord's second coming to the end of the tribulation period
Once this done it is then postulated that there is no pre tribultion "harpazo" by the Lord to immortalize His true ecclesia
The flaw in this ambition is failure to recognize the timing of the Lord's return to judge an unbelieving world which will be at the onset of the tribulation period .... not at the end of it
..... those who hold to this idea say .... no He doesn't ..... He only comes once at the ending of the period to bring His wrath on one day and at the same time to "rapture" believers on that day
Therefore there is no pre-tribulation rapture .... when the pied pipers of post tribulation teaching are confronted with the issue they then will say that pre-tribulation thinking is a "lie of the devil'
And then they will present their hoaxing of the MacDonald "vision" and Darby's use of the same for concocting a pre-tribulation rapture .... and at the same time use the old and moldy attack upon what they call the dispensational view of the prophetic scriptures
The facts are that MacDonald's purported vision actually has the "church" going through the tribulation, Darby would not use this obvious part of the vision to make up his theology, and the Lord does present the overview of His dispensational interactions with humanity over time .... this obvious and supported by scripture
The post tribulation rant is actually "the lie of devil" because this denies the Lord's prophetic word every step of the way
It is designed for the purpose of deceiving the ignorant that simply do not spend time checking the details
The Lord has said that one must be ready for His action as a "thief" .... because no signs or dating will be revealed before
But the tribulation will be filled with signs and framed with a specific measurable time lapse and count down to appearing of the Lord at the end of the same
So is the Lord playing a game and purposely creating confusion about the matter?
No hardly ..... those in the tribulation will know for sure
Those before the beginning cannot know
Two different times .... not the same as the post tribulation teacher have you believe
So what is going on here? ..... the deceptions of the teaching .... a clever ruse designed by reprobate men
This is used to push the Lord's second coming to the end of the tribulation period
Once this done it is then postulated that there is no pre tribultion "harpazo" by the Lord to immortalize His true ecclesia
The flaw in this ambition is failure to recognize the timing of the Lord's return to judge an unbelieving world which will be at the onset of the tribulation period .... not at the end of it
..... those who hold to this idea say .... no He doesn't ..... He only comes once at the ending of the period to bring His wrath on one day and at the same time to "rapture" believers on that day
Therefore there is no pre-tribulation rapture .... when the pied pipers of post tribulation teaching are confronted with the issue they then will say that pre-tribulation thinking is a "lie of the devil'
And then they will present their hoaxing of the MacDonald "vision" and Darby's use of the same for concocting a pre-tribulation rapture .... and at the same time use the old and moldy attack upon what they call the dispensational view of the prophetic scriptures
The facts are that MacDonald's purported vision actually has the "church" going through the tribulation, Darby would not use this obvious part of the vision to make up his theology, and the Lord does present the overview of His dispensational interactions with humanity over time .... this obvious and supported by scripture
The post tribulation rant is actually "the lie of devil" because this denies the Lord's prophetic word every step of the way
It is designed for the purpose of deceiving the ignorant that simply do not spend time checking the details
The Lord has said that one must be ready for His action as a "thief" .... because no signs or dating will be revealed before
But the tribulation will be filled with signs and framed with a specific measurable time lapse and count down to appearing of the Lord at the end of the same
So is the Lord playing a game and purposely creating confusion about the matter?
No hardly ..... those in the tribulation will know for sure
Those before the beginning cannot know
Two different times .... not the same as the post tribulation teacher have you believe
So what is going on here? ..... the deceptions of the teaching .... a clever ruse designed by reprobate men
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G
Let's take a look at the Lord's prophetic word...
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'
What tribulation? What days?
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
O.K. - so, what happens 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'?
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
O.K. - then what?
And then
shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
( Jesus returns; the Second Coming of Christ )
O.K. - now what?
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
( Rapture )
These three verses are "stand-alone" scripture -- they do not need to be "interpreted" by / through any other passage of scripture.
"It says what it means, and it means what it says."
The Bible does not indicate the specific length of the tribulation period.
If I were to tell you that you are in the tribulation period NOW --- would you "know for sure"...???
If you discovered this to be true --- should you "have known" [ already ] --- "for sure"...???
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'
What tribulation? What days?
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
O.K. - so, what happens 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'?
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
O.K. - then what?
And then
shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
( Jesus returns; the Second Coming of Christ )
O.K. - now what?
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
( Rapture )
These three verses are "stand-alone" scripture -- they do not need to be "interpreted" by / through any other passage of scripture.
"It says what it means, and it means what it says."
The Bible does not indicate the specific length of the tribulation period.
If I were to tell you that you are in the tribulation period NOW --- would you "know for sure"...???
If you discovered this to be true --- should you "have known" [ already ] --- "for sure"...???
There is no rapture. When JESUS returns, The LORD'S Day is here on earth. We gather back to CHRIST at the Trump Of GOD, which is the Seventh and last trump.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
And GOD is against those that teach HIS children to fly to save their souls:
Eze 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
And the 'nor by letter as from us' that Paul is talking about is 1st Thessalonians. Paul is saying don't be confused by that letter. If you know how to read 1st Thessalonians, you will see easily that it is not speaking of a rapture.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
And GOD is against those that teach HIS children to fly to save their souls:
Eze 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
And the 'nor by letter as from us' that Paul is talking about is 1st Thessalonians. Paul is saying don't be confused by that letter. If you know how to read 1st Thessalonians, you will see easily that it is not speaking of a rapture.
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