When does the rapture occur?

[1still_waters]

False
Pretrib is on record throughout church history
Jesus comes with the saints in mat 24,rev 19
So even pre history we see the pretrib rapture.

Matthew 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Sophia]

False
Pretrib is on record throughout church history
Jesus comes with the saints in mat 24,rev 19
So even pre history we see the pretrib rapture.

Do you have a quote from anyone from before the 1800s who took that interpretation? I'm not saying that it's wrong, just that everyone up to the 1800s saw that the call went out before the Bridegroom's coming (signs) but by that time, it was too late.

 

[Straightshot]

Read you Bible Sop ...... why would you look anywhere else

.... the Word of the Lord is eternal

Do you not know that there have been and are those reprobate false teachers who would miss-lead you?

You refer to the same who built the MacDonald/Darby hoax who tell what you just said

Even most of the early church "fathers" of the RCC were those who parted from scriptural truth on the subject at hand

This crafted ruse of no pre-tribulation "rapture" has been going on for centuries

 

[popeye]

Matthew 24

Matthew 24


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Glad to see that you affirm the prtetrib position. Yes,Jesus does in fact come after the GT with his saints gathered from heaven

 

[PlainWord]

The great trib starts with the 4 horsemen and ends with the second coming. The whole thing has a greater wrath in the second half,but tthere is no indication whatsoeever that the 4 horsemen are NOT released fromm heaven and the WRATH they carry is a nominal "trouble" (tribulation) as 1/3 of men and half the planet are already destroyed a few months/weeks into the 7 yr GT.4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword...........
............ And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
"..............power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth........."
So,if satan acted alone,why does he not just do the "peace removal" now?(this shows you the church is absent,and why peace CAN be removed,and where the "power given" came from)

How can some read this and minimize it???

Here's the problem so many people have. They read about the Great Tribulation in Matthew and Mark then all of sudden make the jump that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all part of this same Great Tribulation. Some see the Great Tribulation as having started in AD 70 with the destruction of the 2nd temple, some in 688 AD with the Dome of the Rock (Abomination of Desolation) and still others see it as only a 7 year period which they call Daniel's 70th week. The truth is all of these views are speculative because we are not told precisely.

It is also speculative to assume that the seals are of God because Christ is opening them and is the only one found worthy to open them. It is even more speculative to assume that "1/3 of men and half the planet are destroyed with a few months" into it. Since we are not told when the Tribulation starts in relation to the seals, trumpets and bowls we cannot know which are within the Tribulation or before or after it.

Having said all of that, I have my own view about the seals, trumpets and bowls. The bowls all come after the Tribulation is over. We are clearly told they are the wrath of God and that they are in response to the evil that has been going on (during the Tribulation). Here's what I believe concerning the scroll sealed with the 7 seals and what it means. This thinking has been developed over years of study and prayer and using other scripture in both the OT and new.

1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

I believe the details of the Trumpets are written on the inside and the Bowls on the back or vice versa, it really doesn't matter which. The seals conceal those details. You can't read the scroll until the seals are opened, that's just common sense. So the seals give us a brief summary of what is more fully told inside. Once the seals are fully opened we can then see more details of the same events covered in the seals.

In my opinion, the 4th seal is the Great Tribulation. We know it involves ISLAM. If we compare to Daniel, Ezekiel and other parts of Revelation it's clear that it involves the final or fourth Beast Kingdom of Daniel which is the same as the 8th of Revelation which is also of the 7th. This Final Beast Kingdom (BEAST of the SEA Rev 13) is a 10 nation or group alliance of Islam lead by Turkey but includes, Syria, Iraq and Iran. They invade Saudi Arabia, Egypt and of course, Israel. They kill fellow Muslims who will not follow them and they behead Christians and Jews alike. They have global influence but it is worse in regions they control.

We see the rise of ISLAM in seals 1-3. Seal 1 most likely represents the conquests of Mohammed and the creation of the Islamic religion which is the False Religion of the world. Seal 2 represents the Ottoman Empire from 1,299 to 1,922. This is the beast that was mortally wounded, yet lived because it is this empire that comes back. Seal 3 represents the wealthy Arab oil "kings" and they perverse and lavish lifestyle while most in their countries are poor.

Seal 5 tells us the Tribulation (persecution and death of Saints by evil) is over. More detail is provided in Revelation 7. By Seal 6 we head to Armageddon and these wicked men see Christ coming and hide in caves knowing they are about to get it.

The Trumpets provide further detail of the Rise of Islam and the Tribulation of Islam against the righteous and against themselves. They kill millions. We then see Armageddon against at the 6th trumpet where more detail is given to the 6th seal. The Bowls of Wrath are poured out leading up to and including the Battle of Armageddon which concludes at the 6th Bowl. It is here where 1/3 of the world is killed. Christ returns at the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet and 7th Bowl. 7-7-7 is divine perfection.

 

[Kerry]

As I have said many times, the rapture occurs exactly when the Father looks to the Son and say's go get em.

 

[1still_waters]

Matthew 24


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Glad to see that you affirm the prtetrib position. Yes,Jesus does in fact come after the GT with his saints gathered from heaven

From one end of heaven to another is a figure of speech for all ends of he world.
If they're in heaven already, then the are gathered.

 

[popeye]

Do you have a quote from anyone from before the 1800s who took that interpretation? I'm not saying that it's wrong, just that everyone up to the 1800s saw that the call went out before the Bridegroom's coming (signs) but by that time, it was too late.

"Jan Luyken's three-part illustration of the rapture described in Matthew 24, verse 40, from the 1795 Bowyer Bible"
To see this quote google "rapture,wiki" and see the illustrated bible (from the 1700's) except debunking the "1830s" hogwash.
Other evidence is so easy to obtain,however postrib "teachers" offer a very false and deceptive picture.
"darby" mess is false
"Mdonald" mess is false
"jesuit" mess is false.
Ask a postrib to back up the false info and they can not. It is pure hear-say 3rd party gossip. Increadable that postrib followers do not check out what their "teachers" parrot.

 

[1still_waters]

Matthew 24


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Glad to see that you affirm the prtetrib position. Yes,Jesus does in fact come after the GT with his saints gathered from heaven

Even if the reference is saints in heaven, there is nothing in the text to indicate those are saints who were raptured from a tribulation. Those who die go to be with the God, so it could be them also.

There isn't anything in Matthew 24 that indicates some pretrib saving of saints as they're swept off the Earth to heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

Read you Bible Sop ...... why would you look anywhere else

.... the Word of the Lord is eternal

Do you not know that there have been and are those reprobate false teachers who would miss-lead you?

You refer to the same who built the MacDonald/Darby hoax who tell what you just said

Even most of the early church "fathers" of the RCC were those who parted from scriptural truth on the subject at hand

This crafted ruse of no pre-tribulation "rapture" has been going on for centuries

It actually has not. Just listen to any of the old hymns from the 18th century, no mention of any rapture. Instead you have songs like "the Battle Hymn of the Republic" which starts out, not with a rapture, but with the Second Coming and the wrath of God. This song was written in 1861 before Darby's crazy theory took hold and it really didn't take hold until the Scoffield Reference Bible popularized the Pre-Trib notion in the 1920s.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:His truth is marching on.


Then you have "Onward Christian Solders" whose lyrics were written in 1861. Again, why write so much about the Second Coming and leave out the supposed earlier Rapture in which today we are told we are all to look ahead to?

• 1. Onward, Christian soldiers!
  Marching as to war,
  With the cross of Jesus
  Going on before.
  Christ, the royal Master,
  Leads against the foe;
  Forward into battle,
  See his banners go!
  

• 2. At the sign of triumph
  Satan's host doth flee;
  On, then, Christian soldiers,
  On to victory.
  Hell's foundations quiver
  At the shout of praise;
  Brothers, lift your voices,
  Loud your anthems raise.
  
• 
  
  • 3. Like a mighty army
    Moves the Church of God;
    Brothers, we are treading
    Where the Saints have trod.
    We are not divided;
    All one body we:
    One in hope and doctrine,
    One in charity.
  
  
  

The truth is the Pre-Trib Rapture is Satan's lie. It was brought into the church by WOLVES in SHEEP'S CLOTHING. Now good Men of God preach it as though it is clearly taught when in reality, NONE of the key tenants of the doctrine can be found in the Bible. The Rapture is designed to keep the church quiet and looking forward to Christ return BEFORE the Man of Sin when in really Christ comes AFTER. Many, Many will be deceived because of this Satanic inspired doctrine.

 

[Kerry]

Here is a old hymn " what He has done for others He will do you for you, with arms wide open He will pardon you, it is no secret what God can do". He saved Noah from wrath, He saved Lot from wrath, He save Judah (those that trusted Him) from wrath. He won't do it for me?

 

[popeye]

From one end of heaven to another is a figure of speech for all ends of he world.
If they're in heaven already, then the are gathered.

Big diffrence in 1 thes 4 where the dead are raised FROM THE EARTH as well as saints gathered FROM THE EARTH.

Add it up. rev 19,mat 24, the total absence of any mention of the church on the earth during the GT,as well as the AC kills every man woman and child on the planet refusing the mark,.....and the biggie....The absolute disruption of the bible,trying to place the rapture of the bride at the end of the GT.
IOW,postribbers start all their doctrine from an impossibility.....no church to rapture/no alive believers at the end of the gt.

That is why Jesus says "heaven" but to postribs "heaven" can not be "heaven"
2nd coming of mat 24;31 can not be the rapture. Nor can the "2 in the field" Of mat 24 be anything but the rapture.

Postribs revert to another falsehood in the "2 in the field" of mat 24 by the grand canyon leap to oblivion of "the wicked are always gathered first" ...they are NEVER gathered first. Nor is there any "trib" before Noah is ushered away.
Also,ask yourself "where is the " postrib rapture scenario in Noah??
Possible postrib force fit: "noah is taken by God AFTER the flood,but returs to the earth immediately"???
As you can see there is no postrib anything in the word...absolutely nothing.

 

[1still_waters]

Here is a old hymn " what He has done for others He will do you for you, with arms wide open He will pardon you, it is no secret what God can do". He saved Noah from wrath, He saved Lot from wrath, He save Judah (those that trusted Him) from wrath. He won't do it for me?

They all went through it. They didn't dematerialize and go to heaven until it was over. Sure God can save them through it, that fits a biblical pattern. Getting transported to heaven until the mess is over doesn't seem to fit any major biblical patterns.

 

[PlainWord]

There is no scripture passage where the timing of the Lord's return is located BEFORE the Tribulation
There is no passage where two distinct returns of the Lord are found
There is no concept of a "tribulation saint" found
There is no mention of anyone being "left behind"
There is no teaching of any living being transported to heaven to avoid the Tribulation
There is no teaching which reverses the Divine PROMISE of Tribulation for ones faith
There is no passage that tells us the Great Tribulation has anything to do with God's Wrath
There is no teaching of a great revival which follows the rapture return but comes before the Man of Sin

Instead:

Jesus teaches us that He returns AFTER the Tribulation and doesn't breath a word of any earlier return
Jesus teaches that we will be long suffering and to have patience and faith. Patience for what if there is an earlier rapture?
Jesus does not expect to find faith on the earth which would seem obvious if He raptured us already
Saints are killed by the multitudes during the Great Tribulation so Christians are here and nothing says they are new Christians
Daniel teaches that Satan is waging war against saints and overcoming them right up and until the "Ancient of Days" Returns.

This is what the Bible really tells us.

 

[PlainWord]

Here is a old hymn " what He has done for others He will do you for you, with arms wide open He will pardon you, it is no secret what God can do". He saved Noah from wrath, He saved Lot from wrath, He save Judah (those that trusted Him) from wrath. He won't do it for me?

Yes, we are not appointed to God's wrath. Satan's wrath is a different story. We are specifically told to expect it and to persevere.

Notice the below is a promise. He doesn't say "YOU MAY" his says "YOU WILL!!"

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

 

[popeye]

They all went through it. They didn't dematerialize and go to heaven until it was over. Sure God can save them through it, that fits a biblical pattern. Getting transported to heaven until the mess is over doesn't seem to fit any major biblical patterns.

Lot taken first..then jugement lot "went through" zero
Noah usered into the ark first...then judgement..(ark is a "type" of heaven)...Noah returns IN THE ARK (consistant with mat 24 "gathered from heaven")

Your postrib doctrine needs one example of a postrib exodus,where they return immediately (what you erroneously believe).
Postrib says "the wicked are gathered first". Please show us .
Really you do not have a single verse to support postrib doctrine

 

[Kerry]

Yes, we are not appointed to God's wrath. Satan's wrath is a different story. We are specifically told to expect it and to persevere.

Notice the below is a promise. He doesn't say "YOU MAY" his says "YOU WILL!!"

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Is Satan or the Angels pouring out the bowls and the vials? Satan would do it now if he had permission.

 

[prayerwarrior1]

Those who are waiting for a pre trib rapture will be a part of the falling away. There is more taught about hell and repentance, overcoming to the end, do not fear, ect. God's people suffered, Paul suffered, Jesus suffered, we will all encounter persecution and will be safe from God's wrath for the unbelievers. The very definition of tribulation means suffering...

http://youtu.be/uW4E83N8pog


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbuSvqL8go&list=UUmLJ1lhe9G_2gWwo_rRtLRg

 

[Kerry]

Those who are waiting for a pre trib rapture will be a part of the falling away. There is more taught about hell and repentance, overcoming to the end, do not fear, ect. God's people suffered, Paul suffered, Jesus suffered, we will all encounter persecution and will be safe from God's wrath for the unbelievers. The very definition of tribulation means suffering...

http://youtu.be/uW4E83N8pog


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbuSvqL8go&list=UUmLJ1lhe9G_2gWwo_rRtLRg

The church has already fallen away by preaching psychology and works and refusing the work of the Cross, where have you been.

 

[popeye]

There is no scripture passage where the timing of the Lord's return is located BEFORE the Tribulation

Non issue....Yes,he does return with his saints at the end of the GT

There is no passage where two distinct returns of the Lord are found

1 thes 4 is not Mat 24;31......hands down
You guys mishandleing and dance around the "2 in the field" gathering is telling indeed

There is no mention of anyone being "left behind"

Wow,radically false....
"Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;"

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

There is no teaching of any living being transported to heaven to avoid the Tribulation

The groom gathers the bride. You do not undderstand the purpose of the GT,nor the purpose of the rapture

There is no teaching which reverses the Divine PROMISE of Tribulation for ones faith

Postrib talking point non issue. We all know we are promised trib./stop acting like the GT is the same as getting spit on for preaching.

There is no passage that tells us the Great Tribulation has anything to do with God's Wrath

I need no such dynamic. You do to make yourself believe 1/3 of the earth destroyed = God on vacation.

There is no teaching of a great revival which follows the rapture return but comes before the Man of Sin

Nor is there any biblical teaching of a postrib rapture.You do not even realise you need a "return with God" to the spot of the judgement immeditly after the "postrib 'rapture'" (which is your erroneous template)