When does the rapture occur?

Elin · Dec 24, 2014

Could rain = water = Holy Spirit?

veryelect · Dec 24, 2014

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
(Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

Read the thread called '100 percent proof that there is no rapture' with understanding and you will have no further question as to whether there is a rapture before the great tribulation.

Elin · Dec 24, 2014

veryelect said:

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's OT people in their private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--e.g., that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and authoritative teaching in the NT.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and authoritative NT teaching, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 2Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 2Th 1:6-10, above.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21 (above), there is an interesting juxtaposition. In Ac 3:21, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--Jesus' coming at the final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation, for there will be no ravaging after the liberation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
the liberation must occur with the resurrection which occurs with the rapture, so
liberation at the end of time = saints' resurrection = rapture, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of clear and authoritative NT teaching, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration-after-tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection-after-tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and authoritative NT teaching specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any prophetic riddles, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and authoritative NT teaching.

Read the thread called '100 percent proof that there is no rapture' with understanding and you will have no further question as to whether there is a rapture before the great tribulation.

I know that this is a big controversy but if you read this pdf file with understanding, you will know one hundred percent with no doubt that there is no rapture. You will also be able to easily prove it to anyone.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, veryelect, I did read it.

Well written and presented, but I find it inaccurate and incorrect.

A "cloud" is a shapeless, or definitely-shaped, mass covering the heavens.

And metaphor is not slang.
It is rhetorical (skillful or artistic) use of a word or phrase denoting one kind of object (cloud) or idea in place of another (crowd), suggesting a likeness (shapeless mass covering the heavens) between them.

That "cloud" is used metaphorically in Heb 12:1 and 2Pe 2:17 ("mists") to mean "crowd," does not mean
"cloud" is used metaphorically throughout the NT, as:

on the mount of transfiguration (Mt 17:5),
which covered Israel in the Red Sea (1Co 10:1-2),
seen in the apocalyptic visions (Rev 1:7, 10:1, 11:12, 14:14, 15, 16),
in connection with the rapture (1Th 4:17),
Christ's second coming (Mt 24:30, 26:64), or
at the ascension (Ac 1:9).

So I see no Biblical warrant for the catching up in the "clouds" with the resurrected saints at the rapture,
which occurs at Jesus second coming on the clouds, to mean caught up in a "throng" of people
rather than in actual clouds, unless Jesus is coming on a "throng" of people.

Elin · Dec 24, 2014

.
P.S. at bottom.

veryelect said:

Elin said:

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's OT people in their private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--e.g., that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and authoritative teaching in the NT.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and authoritative NT teaching, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 2Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 2Th 1:6-10, above.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21 (above), there is an interesting juxtaposition. In Ac 3:21, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--Jesus' coming at the final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation, for there will be no ravaging after the liberation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
the liberation must occur with the resurrection which occurs with the rapture, so
liberation at the end of time = saints' resurrection = rapture, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of clear and authoritative NT teaching, what I find is that

Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
which restoration-after-tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
which resurrection-after-tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and authoritative NT teaching specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any prophetic riddles, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and authoritative NT teaching.

Read the thread called '100 percent proof that there is no rapture' with understanding and you will have no further question as to whether there is a rapture before the great tribulation.

Thanks, veryelect, I did read it.

Well written and presented, but I find it inaccurate and incorrect.

A "cloud" is a shapeless, or definitely-shaped, mass covering the heavens.

And metaphor is not slang.
It is rhetorical (skillful or artistic) use of a word or phrase denoting one kind of object (cloud) or idea in place of another (crowd), suggesting a likeness (shapeless mass covering the heavens) between them.

That "cloud" is used metaphorically in Heb 12:1 and 2Pe 2:17 ("mists") to mean "crowd," does not mean
"cloud" is used metaphorically throughout the NT, as:

on the mount of transfiguration (Mt 17:5),
which covered Israel in the Red Sea (1Co 10:1-2),
seen in the apocalyptic visions (Rev 1:7, 10:1, 11:12, 14:14, 15, 16),
in connection with the rapture (1Th 4:17),
Christ's second coming (Mt 24:30, 26:64), or
at the ascension (Ac 1:9).

So I see no Biblical warrant for the catching up in the "clouds" with the resurrected saints at the rapture,
which occurs at Jesus second coming on the clouds, to mean caught up in a "throng" of people
rather than in actual clouds, unless Jesus is coming on a "throng" of people.

P.S.: I should also point out that in 1Th 4:17,
"air" is the Greek aer, which means "atmosphere",
while pnoe means "breath",
and pneuma means "spirit".

Paul did not use pnoe or pneuma because he did not mean "breath" or "spirit", respectively,
he used aer because he meant "atmosphere".

Paul states we will be caught up in the clouds (not crowds)
to meet the Lord in the atmosphere (not in the spirit).

PlainWord · Dec 25, 2014

Elin said:

Former and Latter Day Rain?

PlainWord · Dec 25, 2014

Elin said:

Thanks, veryelect, I did read it.

Well written and presented, but I find it inaccurate and incorrect.

A "cloud" is a shapeless, or definitely-shaped, mass covering the heavens.

And metaphor is not slang.
It is rhetorical (skillful or artistic) use of a word or phrase denoting one kind of object (cloud) or idea in place of another (crowd), suggesting a likeness (shapeless mass covering the heavens) between them.

That "cloud" is used metaphorically in Heb 12:1 and 2Pe 2:17 ("mists") to mean "crowd," does not mean
"cloud" is used metaphorically throughout the NT, as:

on the mount of transfiguration (Mt 17:5),
which covered Israel in the Red Sea (1Co 10:1-2),
seen in the apocalyptic visions (Rev 1:7, 10:1, 11:12, 14:14, 15, 16),
in connection with the rapture (1Th 4:17),
Christ's second coming (Mt 24:30, 26:64), or
at the ascension (Ac 1:9).

So I see no Biblical warrant for the catching up in the "clouds" with the resurrected saints at the rapture,
which occurs at Jesus second coming on the clouds, to mean caught up in a "throng" of people
rather than in actual clouds, unless Jesus is coming on a "throng" of people.[/QUOTE]

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

More specifically, these "Clouds of Heaven" that Jesus returns with are Angels and/or Saints and/or "Armies of Heaven." They are certainly NOT white puffy clouds we see in the sky. This is very clear as you point out.

Dan 7:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

Christ isn't coming with sky clouds. He comes with an army dressed in white. John saw the same thing.

Rev 19:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses.

When Jesus departed earth He was caught up into these same "Clouds" or Crowds as you put it.

Acts 1:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

Again, not a sky cloud but Angels received the Lord and they took Him to heaven. We see that two angels remained behind to talk to the disciples. These angels announce that the Lord will return the same way, with angels.

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus Himself discusses sending these "clouds" or angels out to gather His Elect upon His return.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

CONCLUSION:

These angels are the "Clouds of Heaven."

Elin · Dec 25, 2014

PlainWord said:

When "cloud" is used as a metaphor, we always know the metaphor is warranted from the context,
where the noun to which the likeness is suggested is stated, as in:

"cloud of witnesses" - witnesses (people) are metaphorically likened to clouds (Heb 12:1).
These men are "mists driven by a storm." - men are metaphorically likened to mists (2Pe 2:17).

Apart from the context itself showing "clouds" are being used metaphorically,
there is no license to assume that clouds are not literal.

So, we have no license to assume that
the catching up in the "clouds" with the resurrected saints at the rapture,
which occurs at Jesus second coming on the clouds (1Th 4:17),
means caught up in a "throng" of people
rather than in actual clouds (Jesus is not coming on a "throng" of people).

And we likewise have no license to assume that
meeting the Lord in the "air" at the rapture
means meeting the Lord "in the spirit."

This taking unauthorized license with the words of the texts and their translations is yielding misinterpretation and error.

Authoritative NT teaching (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles)
states we will be caught up in the clouds (not crowds)
to meet the Lord in the atmosphere (not in the spirit).

We have no license to assume otherwise.

TKICBS · Dec 26, 2014

Interesting. I can say one thing for certain. If you don't believe in the rapture and teach likewise then you won't go in it when it comes.
The original question was when is the rapture. I believe I can give you a good idea when it is but it will surprise you.
There has to be a 7 year covenant. There is absolutely no scripture to prove a 7 year tribulation. That doctrine has tricked many into believing in a rapture before the 7 years. That to is obviously a deception. I believe its purpose is to keep people from looking into end time prophecy seriously.
There is an abomination in the midst or middle of the 7 years. Lets say middle for the sake of argument. So about 3 1/2 years from the time the covenant is signed the little horn of Daniel will set up an abomination that causes desolation. It is around this time that the child in Rev 12 is caught up to God to rule with a rod of iron. I believe this child is a part of the body of Christ who are obedient to Christ. The rest of the body, the disobedient, are the woman, the child's mother. They go into a wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Other children of the woman who keep the commandments of God and understand the prophetic word, (the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy). Many of these will die for their faith. After 1260 days the woman will come out of the wilderness. At 1335 days she will be raptured according to Daniel 12:12.
So there are 2 raptures. One of the child and the other of the woman. The woman is at the last great 7th trumpet just after the 2 witnesses get caught up. Understand that the beast is only here for the last 3 1/2 years so this child cannot be Jesus. Also, those who overcome Jezebel will be given a rod of iron to rule the nations just as Jesus received from his Father.
The child will be kept from the temptation of taking the mark in accordance to Rev 3, and will not suffer the wrath of God.
What other proof is there in scripture of 2 raptures instead of one?
Look at 2nd Thess 2. Verse 3 tells us the wicked will be revealed before the gathering of God's people. Yet in the same chapter he who lets is taken out of the way before the wicked is revealed. If he who now lets is the Holy Ghost, as most of us believe, then the only way to accept this chapter is if there are 2 raptures. One before the wicked on is revealed and the other after the wicked one is revealed.
Why would God do this?
Aside from the fact of his word, if you know God you will understand this better. God does not wish that any perish. If the rapture took place today many believers would miss it simply because they are practicing all sorts of abominations. The list in Galatians 5 is very clear about this. So, he will take the obedient first and give the disobedient a second chance. They will have to suffer and be made clean. They will have 1260 days to become a powerhouse like we have never seen before. Joel 2 reveals that after the asteroid hit of Rev 8 there will be deliverance for anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.
Repent now and join the child. You do not want to be here in the final 3 1/2 years.

For an update on what is going on in prophecy watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUhOOhc1s5k
Did you know that the bible declares there will be a 7 year covenant between Israel and many nations just before the Lord comes back. Read Danieal 9:27
The EU signed the ENPI, a 7 year covenant, with Israel on Jan 1, 2007 and renewed and strengthened the covenant on Jan 1, 2014 for another 7 years. Daniel 11: 20-30 tell us that a leader will rise in Syria after the covenant is signed who will gather a great army and then go against Egypt. Is the head of ISIS this leader. It appears so. They should gather a great army but begin with a small number. The timing is perfect with the ENPI. They should take a great treasure from Egypt and return the Syria. They will attempt another attack on Egypt just before the middle of the 7 years, that would be before June 2017. Ships from Cyprus will stop them. Then it says he has intelligence against those who transgress the covenant. Then arms will rise up on his part. In other words someone else will fight for him. Daniel 8 reveals this will be the little horn. This little horn appears to be Turkey at this point. It is turkey that will set up the abomination that causes desolation. He will be given orders from the EU because Daniel 9:27 tells us it is the prince of the people who destroyed the temple who will "Cause" the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
Watch ISIS and any movement he tries against Egypt.
Watch and pray you are counted worthy to go in the rapture of the child.
https://tkicbs.blogspot.ca

Ric · Dec 26, 2014

At the second coming.

Kerry · Dec 26, 2014

TKICBS said:

Interesting. I can say one thing for certain. If you don't believe in the rapture and teach likewise then you won't go in it when it comes.
The original question was when is the rapture. I believe I can give you a good idea when it is but it will surprise you.
There has to be a 7 year covenant. There is absolutely no scripture to prove a 7 year tribulation. That doctrine has tricked many into believing in a rapture before the 7 years. That to is obviously a deception. I believe its purpose is to keep people from looking into end time prophecy seriously.
There is an abomination in the midst or middle of the 7 years. Lets say middle for the sake of argument. So about 3 1/2 years from the time the covenant is signed the little horn of Daniel will set up an abomination that causes desolation. It is around this time that the child in Rev 12 is caught up to God to rule with a rod of iron. I believe this child is a part of the body of Christ who are obedient to Christ. The rest of the body, the disobedient, are the woman, the child's mother. They go into a wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Other children of the woman who keep the commandments of God and understand the prophetic word, (the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy). Many of these will die for their faith. After 1260 days the woman will come out of the wilderness. At 1335 days she will be raptured according to Daniel 12:12.
So there are 2 raptures. One of the child and the other of the woman. The woman is at the last great 7th trumpet just after the 2 witnesses get caught up. Understand that the beast is only here for the last 3 1/2 years so this child cannot be Jesus. Also, those who overcome Jezebel will be given a rod of iron to rule the nations just as Jesus received from his Father.
The child will be kept from the temptation of taking the mark in accordance to Rev 3, and will not suffer the wrath of God.
What other proof is there in scripture of 2 raptures instead of one?
Look at 2nd Thess 2. Verse 3 tells us the wicked will be revealed before the gathering of God's people. Yet in the same chapter he who lets is taken out of the way before the wicked is revealed. If he who now lets is the Holy Ghost, as most of us believe, then the only way to accept this chapter is if there are 2 raptures. One before the wicked on is revealed and the other after the wicked one is revealed.
Why would God do this?
Aside from the fact of his word, if you know God you will understand this better. God does not wish that any perish. If the rapture took place today many believers would miss it simply because they are practicing all sorts of abominations. The list in Galatians 5 is very clear about this. So, he will take the obedient first and give the disobedient a second chance. They will have to suffer and be made clean. They will have 1260 days to become a powerhouse like we have never seen before. Joel 2 reveals that after the asteroid hit of Rev 8 there will be deliverance for anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.
Repent now and join the child. You do not want to be here in the final 3 1/2 years.

For an update on what is going on in prophecy watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUhOOhc1s5k
Did you know that the bible declares there will be a 7 year covenant between Israel and many nations just before the Lord comes back. Read Danieal 9:27
The EU signed the ENPI, a 7 year covenant, with Israel on Jan 1, 2007 and renewed and strengthened the covenant on Jan 1, 2014 for another 7 years. Daniel 11: 20-30 tell us that a leader will rise in Syria after the covenant is signed who will gather a great army and then go against Egypt. Is the head of ISIS this leader. It appears so. They should gather a great army but begin with a small number. The timing is perfect with the ENPI. They should take a great treasure from Egypt and return the Syria. They will attempt another attack on Egypt just before the middle of the 7 years, that would be before June 2017. Ships from Cyprus will stop them. Then it says he has intelligence against those who transgress the covenant. Then arms will rise up on his part. In other words someone else will fight for him. Daniel 8 reveals this will be the little horn. This little horn appears to be Turkey at this point. It is turkey that will set up the abomination that causes desolation. He will be given orders from the EU because Daniel 9:27 tells us it is the prince of the people who destroyed the temple who will "Cause" the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
Watch ISIS and any movement he tries against Egypt.
Watch and pray you are counted worthy to go in the rapture of the child.
https://tkicbs.blogspot.ca

I would differ from you, Consider Rahab and at the same consider Lot. Destruction was coming and they escaped. the rapture is more than just an event. It is a time that all those who love God are removed before the wrath of God is poured out. WE are not appointed unto wrath. Yet if you live in this world during the tribulation it will be like living under Roman rule only ten times worse and you will either accept the mark or have head chopped off. That is an easy one, or you will watch your children be tortured to death, while the officers rape your wife. Then kill here and ask you again if you will take the mark.

Y'all are so brave why don't you take a trip to Haiti and see how strong you are in God. Take that Satanic strong hold. You better know that you sent by God and preach the gospel.

Elin · Dec 26, 2014

Kerry said:

I would differ from you, Consider Rahab and at the same
consider Lot. Destruction was coming and they escaped. the rapture is more than just an event. It is a time that all those who love God are removed before the wrath of God is poured out. WE are not appointed unto wrath. Yet if you live in this world during the tribulation it will be like living under Roman rule only ten times worse and you will either accept the mark or have head chopped off. That is an easy one, or you will watch your children be tortured to death, while the officers rape your wife. Then kill here and ask you again if you will take the mark.

Y'all are so brave why don't you take a trip to Haiti and see how strong you are in God. Take that Satanic strong hold. You better know that you sent by God and preach the gospel.

Actually Lot was not removed from the plain where the judgment occurred,
as many other OT saints were not removed from where the judgment occurred, shown here.

PlainWord · Dec 26, 2014

Elin said:

When "cloud" is used as a metaphor, we always know the metaphor is warranted from the context,
where the noun to which the likeness is suggested is stated, as in:

"cloud of witnesses" - witnesses (people) are metaphorically likened to clouds (Heb 12:1).
These men are "mists driven by a storm." - men are metaphorically likened to mists (2Pe 2:17).

Apart from the context itself showing "clouds" are being used metaphorically,
there is no license to assume that clouds are not literal.

So, we have no license to assume that
the catching up in the "clouds" with the resurrected saints at the rapture,
which occurs at Jesus second coming on the clouds (1Th 4:17),
means caught up in a "throng" of people
rather than in actual clouds (Jesus is not coming on a "throng" of people).

And we likewise have no license to assume that
meeting the Lord in the "air" at the rapture
means meeting the Lord "in the spirit."

This taking unauthorized license with the words of the texts and their translations is yielding misinterpretation and error.

Authoritative NT teaching (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles)
states we will be caught up in the clouds (not crowds)
to meet the Lord in the atmosphere (not in the spirit).

We have no license to assume otherwise.

I think I pretty much demonstrated that these are not literal clouds, pretty overwhelmingly, actually.

PlainWord · Dec 26, 2014

Kerry said:

So much misunderstanding about the Tribulation, the Wrath of God and the Rapture.

First, the Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan and nobody is being taken off the planet alive for that. Many millions of Christians will be killed during this period of enormous satanic persecution and deception.

The Wrath of God comes after the Tribulation and is in response to Satan killing and persecuting God's Christians with his Islamic Beast Empire. Of course believers are not appointed to God's Wrath but God tells His people to get out of those areas where His wrath is coming, specifically Babylon which is modern day Saudi Arabia.

The Rapture happens on the last day of Planet Earth. It is then and only then that any living person is being translated into spiritual bodies without dying first. Satan's Great Tribulation happens way before the rapture.

PlainWord · Dec 26, 2014

Please quote chapter and verse for this statement. If you can't, then you are offering your own personal opinion which God is not obligated to honor.

The child is Jesus Christ. He has already been taken back to heaven nearly 2,000 years ago.

prodigal · Dec 26, 2014

Matthew 13:24-30New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Weeds

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. [SUP]26 [/SUP]When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

luckily those that are facing persecution and death for there faith today in the middle east, were taught that persecution would come and readied themselves for it, whereas in 1800's the chineses missionaries preached rapture before tribulation, but instead of the rapture the communists turned up and slaughtered thousands. most lost there faith as the supposed rapture never came.

so who can we preach rapture too, christians in middle east, nah they're dying today, in africa, no torture and murder happening now, seems people like us in the west must be a bit more special, too good for persecution maybe.

ChristIsGod · Dec 26, 2014

Professor said:

These that you see in Rev 7:9 are the fulfillment of Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Which makes it apparent that a great number will be martyred by the end of the sixth Seal.
He said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

At the 7th seal of Rev 8 we find 7 Angels being given the 7 trumpets. The wrath of God is yet to come after the 7th trumpet which are the Vials. Paul said that we are resurrected at the last, which would be the 7th Trump.

That's Post-Trib - Pre-Wrath.

Though there will be those left until the very end, the Jews that didn't worship anti-Christ, didn't take his mark, nor worshiped his image and those gentiles which didn't do so as well -- and I know many that believe in this coming world leader and a "bio-chip" that won't take it - but aren't Christians -- but mainly patriots of one sort or another.

PlainWord · Dec 27, 2014

prodigal said:

Exactly!!! And where does the Bible say that (Satan's) Great Tribulation takes place? Exactly were it is happening now - the Middle East.

1/4 of the world (Rev 6:8)
the SEA (Rev 13:1, Rev 12:12)
the EARTH (Rev 13:11, Rev 12:12)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Which quarter of the earth do Muslims have dominion over? It is here that the Great Tribulation has started.

Where does the final Beast Kingdom originate from?

Rev 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

And where does the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition, AKA Satan come from?

Rev 13: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

and where is this "earth" exactly??

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.

Satan's Throne is in Turkey which is right in the middle of the Final Beast Empire.

PlainWord · Dec 27, 2014

The Christian World will be almost entirely wiped out - Killed by Satan. How, I do not know, but it happens. The proof is in the Bible and the numbers are given. The below is from 2010.

[TABLE="width: 226"]
[TR]
[TD]Religion
[/TD]
[TD]Number[/TD]
[TD]Percent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Christians[/TD]
[TD] 2,173,180,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Muslims[/TD]
[TD] 1,598,510,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]None[/TD]
[TD] 1,126,500,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hindus[/TD]
[TD] 1,033,080,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Buddhists[/TD]
[TD] 487,540,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Folk[/TD]
[TD] 405,120,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Other[/TD]
[TD] 58,110,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jews[/TD]
[TD] 13,850,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total
[/TD]
[TD] 6,895,890,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]100.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I cannot see how the Christian world is killed conventionally since Christians are everywhere, targeting just Christians would be logistically impossible. But we know from Rev 7 that a great multitude of Christians are killed and in heaven having "come out of the Great Tribulation." We know also that Satan uses "unrighteous deception" to deceive those who perish (die). My guess is a false Christ appears calling Christians to a false Rapture from all over the world. Christ gives us a warning to "Not go out" when they say He is here or there.

Today Muslims make up slightly less than 1/4 of the earth which agrees with the 4th Seal. Once the Great Falling Away (Slaughter of Most Christians) happens the Muslims will comprise 1/3 of the world. Look how the percentages change with the Christians dead.
[TABLE="width: 226"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Post Falling Away/Slaughter
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Muslims[/TD]
[TD] 1,598,510,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]None[/TD]
[TD] 1,126,500,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hindus[/TD]
[TD] 1,033,080,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Buddhists[/TD]
[TD] 487,540,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Folk[/TD]
[TD] 405,120,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.6%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Other[/TD]
[TD] 58,110,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jews[/TD]
[TD] 13,850,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total
[/TD]
[TD] 4,722,710,000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]100.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

We know from the 6th Trumpet that God's 200 million strong army kills 1/3 of the world. This is the Muslim world. They will make up exactly 1/3 of the world when this happens. Before this happens, ISLAM (which is Satan's World religion) will be dominant in the world.

Only the 144,000 will be left to be the salt and the light.

So when the say Jesus is here, take His advise and DO NOT GO OUT. I believe the False Rapture is close. All the movies and talk are ramping up.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

The Real Christ comes after the Man of Sin - Son of Perdition - Satan. He does not come before.

Elin · Dec 27, 2014

PlainWord said:

Elin said:

More specifically, these "Clouds of Heaven" that Jesus returns with are Angels and/or Saints and/or "Armies of Heaven." They are certainly NOT white puffy clouds we see in the sky. This is very clear as you point out.

Dan 7:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

Christ isn't coming with sky clouds. He comes with an army dressed in white. John saw the same thing.

Rev 19:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses.

When Jesus departed earth He was caught up into these same "Clouds" or Crowds as you put it.

Acts 1:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

Again, not a sky cloud but Angels received the Lord and they took Him to heaven. We see that two angels remained behind to talk to the disciples. These angels announce that the Lord will return the same way, with angels.

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus Himself discusses sending these "clouds" or angels out to gather His Elect upon His return.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

CONCLUSION: These angels are the "Clouds of Heaven."

Can Jesus not come both with clouds, as he states, and an army dressed in white?

Are they mutually exclusive?

Why should Scripture not be taken at its word, and the clouds not be literal,
as they are literal in 1Co 10:1-2?

PlainWord · Dec 28, 2014

Elin said:

"He comes with 'Clouds of Heaven'" are a metaphor for "He comes with 'Angels (Armies) of Heaven.'" Its a figure of speech, that's all it is. Clouds of Heaven are not "sky clouds." He may pass through a sky cloud or two but He will not be riding a normal sky cloud from heaven to earth. Normal clouds don't do that thus these "clouds" are not normal. If the clouds are not normal then they are figurative.

It would be like us saying "A rainbow of flavors" or "Its raining cats and dogs."

Again, try to imagine you are one of the disciples on the ground when Jesus ascended to heaven.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Do clouds open up and receive people and transport them out of sight? Do clouds receive hot air balloons or air planes, or rockets and accompany them out of sight? Of course not. These things pass through a cloud but the cloud remains where it was. So when Christ returns does He start off in heaven on a literal cloud and ride it all the way to earth? Again, literal sky clouds do not behave this way.

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

If He did, it wouldn't be a literal cloud. Note also that they saw Him go into heaven??? Now how is that possible? Can we see heaven from here? Not usually but there has been other times people have looked into heaven. How about Stephen?

55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

I think Heaven is very close to us, in another dimension. Once in awhile some people can see into heaven.

How about when the two witnesses are killed? Do they ride to heaven on a regular sky cloud?

12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

There sure seems to be some odd cloud behavior at big moments in time.

When does the rapture occur?

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