When does the rapture occur?

[Elin]

"He comes with 'Clouds of Heaven'" are a metaphor for "He comes with 'Angels (Armies) of Heaven.'"

Actually, metaphors contain that to which they are suggesting the likeness,
as in Heb 12:1 where the "cloud" is likened to a large group of witnesses,
or in 2Pe 2:17 where "mists/clouds driven by a storm" are likened to false teachers.

It can't be a metaphor if to what it is likened is not given, for a metaphor is a form of comparison
between two things.

Clouds of Heaven are not "sky clouds." He may pass through a sky cloud or two but
He will not be riding a normal sky cloud from heaven to earth.

Does Scripture say he will "ride" a cloud, or is that your idea?

When at his ascension, Jesus was taken up before their very eyes, "a cloud" (single cloud) hid him from their sight.
The (single) cloud that was under him eventually blocked their view of him as he ascended higher into heaven.
That's not an army dressed in white.

As they were looking into the sky watching him go into heaven,
two men in white stood beside them and told them that Jesus would come back "in the same way
they saw him go into heaven."
What they saw was "a cloud" which eventually hid him from their sight,
and according to the men in white, that is the same way he will come back

If the apostles had seen an army dressed in white, why would they not have reported it so?

And when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James and John, when Moses and Elijah appeared
and talked with Jesus, Peter suggested putting up three shelters there, and while Peter was still speaking "a (single) bright cloud" (not an army dressed in white) enveloped them and
a voice from the (single) cloud (not from an army dressed in white) said, "This is my Son. . ."

Why would Peter, James and John not report that a "bright" army dressed in white enveloped them,
and that a voice from the "bright army" said, "This is my Son. . ." if that were what had happened?

That the cloud of the ascension and the cloud of the transfiguration were armies doesn't even make sense.

That Jesus comes back with armies cannot mean that
the (single) cloud of the ascension and the (single) cloud of the transfiguration are metaphors.
And why would they be? Is "a cloud" mutually exclusive with armies in white?

You did not answer my question:
Can he not come both above "a cloud" and with "armies in white?"

 

[PlainWord]

Actually, metaphors contain that to which they are suggesting the likeness,
as in Heb 12:1 where the "cloud" is likened to a large group of witnesses,
or in 2Pe 2:17 where "mists/clouds driven by a storm" are likened to false teachers.

It can't be a metaphor if to what it is likened is not given, for a metaphor is a form of comparison
between two things.


Does Scripture say he will "ride" a cloud, or is that your idea?

When at his ascension, Jesus was taken up before their very eyes, "a cloud" (single cloud) hid him from their sight.
The (single) cloud that was under him eventually blocked their view of him as he ascended higher into heaven.
That's not an army dressed in white.

As they were looking into the sky watching him go into heaven,
two men in white stood beside them and told them that Jesus would come back "in the same way
they saw him go into heaven."
What they saw was "a cloud" which eventually hid him from their sight,
and according to the men in white, that is the same way he will come back

If the apostles had seen an army dressed in white, why would they not have reported it so?

And when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James and John, when Moses and Elijah appeared
and talked with Jesus, Peter suggested putting up three shelters there, and while Peter was still speaking "a (single) bright cloud" (not an army dressed in white) enveloped them and
a voice from the (single) cloud (not from an army dressed in white) said, "This is my Son. . ."

Why would Peter, James and John not report that a "bright" army dressed in white enveloped them,
and that a voice from the "bright army" said, "This is my Son. . ." if that were what had happened?

That the cloud of the ascension and the cloud of the transfiguration were armies doesn't even make sense.

That Jesus comes back with armies cannot mean that
the (single) cloud of the ascension and the (single) cloud of the transfiguration are metaphors.
And why would they be? Is "a cloud" mutually exclusive with armies in white?

You did not answer my question:
Can he not come both above "a cloud" and with "armies in white?"

My point was that these aren't your every day clouds in the sky. These clouds are special. Angels are usually present with these clouds. My theory was that the Lord returns with an angelic army, I don't have proof that this army which we know He comes with are the clouds but they could be. One thing is for sure, these ain't normal sky clouds.

Yes, of course both could be present.

 

[Elin]

Actually, metaphors contain that to which they are suggesting the likeness,
as in Heb 12:1 where the "cloud" is likened to a large group of witnesses,
or in 2Pe 2:17 where "mists/clouds driven by a storm" are likened to false teachers.

It can't be a metaphor if to what it is likened is not given, for a metaphor is a form of comparison
between two things.


Does Scripture say he will "ride" a cloud, or is that your idea?

When at his ascension, Jesus was taken up before their very eyes, "a cloud" (single cloud) hid him from their sight.
The (single) cloud that was under him eventually blocked their view of him as he ascended higher into heaven.
That's not an army dressed in white.

As they were looking into the sky watching him go into heaven,
two men in white stood beside them and told them that Jesus would come back "in the same way
they saw him go into heaven."
What they saw was "a cloud" which eventually hid him from their sight,
and according to the men in white, that is the same way he will come back

If the apostles had seen an army dressed in white, why would they not have reported it so?

And when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James and John, when Moses and Elijah appeared
and talked with Jesus, Peter suggested putting up three shelters there, and while Peter was still speaking "a (single) bright cloud" (not an army dressed in white) enveloped them and
a voice from the (single) cloud (not from an army dressed in white) said, "This is my Son. . ."

Why would Peter, James and John not report that a "bright" army dressed in white enveloped them,
and that a voice from the "bright army" said, "This is my Son. . ." if that were what had happened?

That the cloud of the ascension and the cloud of the transfiguration were armies doesn't even make sense.

That Jesus comes back with armies cannot mean that
the (single) cloud of the ascension and the (single) cloud of the transfiguration are metaphors.
And why would they be? Is "a cloud" mutually exclusive with armies in white?

You did not answer my question:
Can he not come both above "a cloud" and with "armies in white?"

My point was that these aren't your every day clouds in the sky. These clouds are special. Angels are usually present with these clouds. My theory was that the Lord returns with an angelic army,
I don't have proof that this army which we know He comes with are the clouds but they could be.

We haven no Biblical warrant for thinking or saying they could be, when no metaphor is stated.

One thing is for sure, these ain't normal sky clouds.

Yes, of course both could be present.

Good job of considering my posts.

 

[chiefofdisciples]

The rapture occurred during the 17th cencury. 1613 to be exact. Dan 12:1,2 was fulfilled when the great Prince Michael stood up for his people n became king of Russia. His name was Mikhail Feodorovich Romanov. Founder of the Romanov dynasty which lasted from 1613- 1917. And he was the Archangel Michael n the flesh. Standing up during the only era n history that is called the times of troubles 1598- 1613. His election marked the end of those times of troubles Daniel saw n his vision. The Romanov family inherited a deserted land for more than half the villages of Russia were deserted of people as was villages n kingdoms around the world. But blamed on the wars. Raping n pillaging was popular then. Churches were bankrupt women ate their own children to survive for there were not enuf men to till the land. Men fought wild dogs for dead horse carcuses. And they also casted lots for the dead bodies that were hanged on the gallows. People were found dead with grass n there mouths. The rapture lasted 33 years peace n blessings. We r n the midst of Lucifer's 1000 years imprisonment that began n 1945. His last physical body was that of Hitler. Ask God if these things are correct then search it out. Peace n blessings.

 

[RickyZ]

Hokay.....

 

[damombomb]

The rapture occurred during the 17th cencury. 1613 to be exact. Dan 12:1,2 was fulfilled when the great Prince Michael stood up for his people n became king of Russia. His name was Mikhail Feodorovich Romanov. Founder of the Romanov dynasty which lasted from 1613- 1917. And he was the Archangel Michael n the flesh. Standing up during the only era n history that is called the times of troubles 1598- 1613. His election marked the end of those times of troubles Daniel saw n his vision. The Romanov family inherited a deserted land for more than half the villages of Russia were deserted of people as was villages n kingdoms around the world. But blamed on the wars. Raping n pillaging was popular then. Churches were bankrupt women ate their own children to survive for there were not enuf men to till the land. Men fought wild dogs for dead horse carcuses. And they also casted lots for the dead bodies that were hanged on the gallows. People were found dead with grass n there mouths. The rapture lasted 33 years peace n blessings. We r n the midst of Lucifer's 1000 years imprisonment that began n 1945. His last physical body was that of Hitler. Ask God if these things are correct then search it out. Peace n blessings.

Not to be rude or anything, brother, but you should study the word. Do not listen to men.

 

[Sophia]

The rapture occurred during the 17th cencury. 1613 to be exact. Dan 12:1,2 was fulfilled when the great Prince Michael stood up for his people n became king of Russia. His name was Mikhail Feodorovich Romanov. Founder of the Romanov dynasty which lasted from 1613- 1917. And he was the Archangel Michael n the flesh. Standing up during the only era n history that is called the times of troubles 1598- 1613. His election marked the end of those times of troubles Daniel saw n his vision. The Romanov family inherited a deserted land for more than half the villages of Russia were deserted of people as was villages n kingdoms around the world. But blamed on the wars. Raping n pillaging was popular then. Churches were bankrupt women ate their own children to survive for there were not enuf men to till the land. Men fought wild dogs for dead horse carcuses. And they also casted lots for the dead bodies that were hanged on the gallows. People were found dead with grass n there mouths. The rapture lasted 33 years peace n blessings. We r n the midst of Lucifer's 1000 years imprisonment that began n 1945. His last physical body was that of Hitler. Ask God if these things are correct then search it out. Peace n blessings.

A new form of preterism?
History buffs unite! What is the main problem with the assertion made in this post?
(we could spend page upon page talking about all the errors, but what is the main problem for this theory?)

 

[Sophia]

A new form of preterism?
History buffs unite! What is the main problem with the assertion made in this post?
(we could spend page upon page talking about all the errors, but what is the main problem for this theory?)

That the devil continued to wreak havoc across the world during that period, including genocides and wars and plagues and famines and earthquakes and fires and floods and riots and heresies and apostasy and murders and thefts and conspiracies and sexual immorality and idolatry.

The world got worse, even if Russia got a bit better for a time. No resemblance to the Biblical prophecies.

 

[Hepsibah]

Hope this may help you

Mark 13 records the entire chronology of end time events and almost at the end of the chapter is the open coming of The Lord

At the middle, Mark 13:15,16 says

Let him who is on the housetops not go down into the house nor enter to take anything out of his house And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes

These verses portray the day of the rapture. You will understand this if you read Luke 17:26-36

So we can understand that rapture happens immediately after the abomination is revealed.

 

[MarcR]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
  (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

Elin,

As I understand it, the following passages clearly teach that the Church (God's faithful in every time and place) will not experience the wrath of God:


Ro 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
KJV



1 Th 1:9-10
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:8-11
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
KJV

This is the foundation for belief in a pre-trib rapture. I am not sure whether I subscribe to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture though. The Church has been told that we will experience tribulation in the world. Since the Word clearly states that the Church will not experience God's wrath; the latest the rapture can occur is before the seventh seal is opened. The Church may experience the wrath of man [and in fact does daily in many parts of the world]; she will NOT receive the wrath of God.

 

[Hepsibah]

Yes the real tribulation will begin after the abomination will be revealed Till then he will act like a good person working towards peace.

But studying Mark13 and verses 15,16 in particular and then studying Luke 17:26-36 will give an indication of the event which will happen just before rapture.

The world events show that we are not very far from that day.

 

[RickyZ]

Elin,

As I understand it, the following passages clearly teach that the Church (God's faithful in every time and place) will not experience the wrath of God:


Ro 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
KJV



1 Th 1:9-10
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Th 5:8-11
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
KJV

This is the foundation for belief in a pre-trib rapture. I am not sure whether I subscribe to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture though. The Church has been told that we will experience tribulation in the world. Since the Word clearly states that the Church will not experience God's wrath; the latest the rapture can occur is before the seventh seal is opened. The Church may experience the wrath of man [and in fact does daily in many parts of the world]; she will NOT receive the wrath of God.

The 'gathering' is actually very easy to place. God does indeed say we will see judgment but not His wrath. God calls the events tied to the seals and trumpets judgments, and those arising from the bowls are His wrath. Ergo, we will be here to see the events of the seals and trumpets, but not to see those of the bowls.

 

[Elin]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophetic riddles, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of unfulfilled prophetic riddles--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes
to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophetic riddles in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include unfulfilled prophetic riddles here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these unfulfilled prophetic riddles may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from the meanings which are not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture
at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world
at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul, who presents it
at the end of time.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay and restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled prophetic riddles, we can say that whatever the meanings of any unfulfilled prophetic riddle, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

Elin,

As I understand it, the following passages clearly teach that the Church (God's faithful in every time and place) will not experience the wrath of God:

Agreed.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. KJV

1 Th 1:9-10 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. KJV

1 Th 5:8-11 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. KJV

This is the foundation for belief in a pre-trib rapture. I am not sure whether I subscribe to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture though. The Church has been told that we will experience tribulation in the world. Since the Word clearly states that the Church will not experience God's wrath; the latest the rapture can occur is before the seventh seal is opened.
The Church may experience the wrath of man [and in fact does daily in many parts of the world]; she
will NOT receive the wrath of God.

Agreed.

And the clear and certain teaching of the NT is that the rapture occurs at the end of time.

 

[prove-all]

And the clear and certain teaching of the NT is that the rapture occurs at the end of time.

we are resurracted at Jesus 2nd comming, God comes only at the end of time,

once evil is removed from earth, after 1000 year reign with rod of iron.


egypt will be punished with (no rain), living waters are flowing from the city.

this is rain, not the spirit falling down, spirt is a river here

 

[prove-all]

Could rain = water = Holy Spirit?

yes it could , the former and latter rain,=holy spirit


but in Zechariah 14 rain is rain here,


here they are mortals on earth with immortals

 

[prove-all]

Hope this may help you

Mark 13 records the entire chronology of end time events and almost at the end of the chapter is the open coming of The Lord

.

i believe revelations has the chronology of end time events,

we have to put other books,or verses into it at the proper place.

hope this helps

 

[Saved2004]

The Rapture occurs when Christ gathers his church and takes them to heaven.
The Second Coming is when Christ comes back to earth and brings the church with him.

 

[prove-all]

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at (the last) trump: for (the trumpet) shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

 

[PlainWord]

The Rapture occurs when Christ gathers his church and takes them to heaven.
The Second Coming is when Christ comes back to earth and brings the church with him.

Cough. Sorry, that's false doctrine. There is no passage that tells us the church is taken to heaven. There is no passage that discuss two future returns of Christ. This view, which has captured the minds of many, is completely unfounded and unBiblical. The church "falls away" and Satan absolutely decimates the church during the Great Tribulation. This truth and warnings are found and those are the true teachings in the Bible. The pre Trib rapture nonsense couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry.

 

[RickyZ]

In old testament times when an important guest was arriving, those receiving him would go out and meet him on the road and escort him on the last bit of his journey to the host's home. Christ's return will be in the same manner. Christ, as He approaches, gathers us to Him. We have the wedding feast and then accompany Him on His path to earth. It's all one event, known as the second coming to us.