When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The underlying purpose of your question wasn't because you care whether or not I'm saved or because you have any interest in my testimony. The below was how you phrased it originally.
You jump to the conclusion that I must not be saved specifically because I don't, in your mind, see the spiritual "truths" that you see. FYI. My father was a pastor and missionary and I came to the Lord at a very early age. I have been studying prophesy, Revelation in particular, since I was a late teen.
This is because your spirit has been lead astray following the traditions of man (Men who you love to quote) rather than listening to the Word of God.
I'm glad you acknowledge this.
Where in the above does Christ locate His return before the Tribulation? I've asked you this question 1,000 times and you have yet to cite one verse that tells us this. Instead you cite wedding ceremonies and the like, none of which prove a Pre-Trib return. You act as if to not know the day or how means it has to be pre-Trib. Or that we can't be anxiously awaiting the return of the savior unless it is before the Tribulation. I tell you that if you are living during Satan's Tribulation, you better believe those who are will be anxiously awaiting.
No it is NOT!! The world is going to be tempted by Satan, the likes we've never seen before. Yes we need to watch and be alert during the Tribulation. Is there any need to watch and be alert before the Tribulation starts? NO! According to you, the Rapture is an involuntary Pre-Trib Event meaning you can not be paying attention to anything then suddenly you are raptured.
We are told repeatedly to have patience and faith. Be patient because Satan is the first to come and he comes claiming to be God. So be patient and have the faith to wait for the real Lord.
Exactly, and what was it they didn't do??? You cite it right here:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
If the rapture is pre-trib, how much oil do you need? Not much. If the rapture is post trib, you need a lot of oil because you have to wait as He isn't coming right away. Your false beliefs have you twisting everything that even common sense now escapes you. Peter tells us this happens to those who twist Paul's words and you are living proof. Sorry but I'm trying to snap you out of this lie that Satan will use to fool you.
You are posed to be deceived. The moment a spiritual powerful being comes claiming to be God come to take you to heaven you will jump at it. That's my fear for you and so many others who have fallen for this lie.
Again the key word is "ENDURE." Pre-tribbers are enduring NOTHING. They think they get a free pass with no suffering. Have you suffered for your faith dear brother? Did someone laugh at you when you tried to witness to them? Was that the worst of it? What enduring have you done to escape "the test?"
Do you even know what "the Test" is? It isn't the Tribulation. It is the same test given to Abraham and Jesus. How are you supposed to pass this test if you aren't here? How is the church to pass it if the test is never given? The truth is the church, by and large, will fail the test. They rush out when Christ told us to stay in and not go forth.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
The above is the test. I fear you are going to fail this test because you rush out. My heart is heavy for you and all my other dear brothers and sisters who have lapped up this Pre-Trib lie. For Satan to deceive, he must convince people that Christ comes first so that when He comes first and does signs and wonders that Christians will believe that he Satan is Lord. These warnings are for you brother, not for some Tribulation Saint left behind. Christ is not giving warnings to those left behind, he's giving them to us.
You jump to the conclusion that I must not be saved specifically because I don't, in your mind, see the spiritual "truths" that you see. FYI. My father was a pastor and missionary and I came to the Lord at a very early age. I have been studying prophesy, Revelation in particular, since I was a late teen.
This is because your spirit has been lead astray following the traditions of man (Men who you love to quote) rather than listening to the Word of God.
I'm glad you acknowledge this.
Where in the above does Christ locate His return before the Tribulation? I've asked you this question 1,000 times and you have yet to cite one verse that tells us this. Instead you cite wedding ceremonies and the like, none of which prove a Pre-Trib return. You act as if to not know the day or how means it has to be pre-Trib. Or that we can't be anxiously awaiting the return of the savior unless it is before the Tribulation. I tell you that if you are living during Satan's Tribulation, you better believe those who are will be anxiously awaiting.
No it is NOT!! The world is going to be tempted by Satan, the likes we've never seen before. Yes we need to watch and be alert during the Tribulation. Is there any need to watch and be alert before the Tribulation starts? NO! According to you, the Rapture is an involuntary Pre-Trib Event meaning you can not be paying attention to anything then suddenly you are raptured.
We are told repeatedly to have patience and faith. Be patient because Satan is the first to come and he comes claiming to be God. So be patient and have the faith to wait for the real Lord.
Exactly, and what was it they didn't do??? You cite it right here:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
If the rapture is pre-trib, how much oil do you need? Not much. If the rapture is post trib, you need a lot of oil because you have to wait as He isn't coming right away. Your false beliefs have you twisting everything that even common sense now escapes you. Peter tells us this happens to those who twist Paul's words and you are living proof. Sorry but I'm trying to snap you out of this lie that Satan will use to fool you.
You are posed to be deceived. The moment a spiritual powerful being comes claiming to be God come to take you to heaven you will jump at it. That's my fear for you and so many others who have fallen for this lie.
Again the key word is "ENDURE." Pre-tribbers are enduring NOTHING. They think they get a free pass with no suffering. Have you suffered for your faith dear brother? Did someone laugh at you when you tried to witness to them? Was that the worst of it? What enduring have you done to escape "the test?"
Do you even know what "the Test" is? It isn't the Tribulation. It is the same test given to Abraham and Jesus. How are you supposed to pass this test if you aren't here? How is the church to pass it if the test is never given? The truth is the church, by and large, will fail the test. They rush out when Christ told us to stay in and not go forth.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
The above is the test. I fear you are going to fail this test because you rush out. My heart is heavy for you and all my other dear brothers and sisters who have lapped up this Pre-Trib lie. For Satan to deceive, he must convince people that Christ comes first so that when He comes first and does signs and wonders that Christians will believe that he Satan is Lord. These warnings are for you brother, not for some Tribulation Saint left behind. Christ is not giving warnings to those left behind, he's giving them to us.
well the Bible knows no such period as 'The Great Tribulation'. the great tribulation in Matt/Mark was on the Jews from 70 AD to the present day as depicted in Deut 28. The great tribulation in Rev 2.20-22 was on the professing Christians of John's day. the great tribulation in Rev 7 was in respect of the saints in John's day and continually. There is no justification for a seven year/three and a half year Great Tribulation. There will be continual tribulation for the church, increasing towards the end. The Middle east are experiencing it now, as are Nigerians and others.
Revelation except for the First Three Chapters, IS STILL FUTURE PROPHECY no matter what you want to believe. Like I said, we are at a Stalemate.
Yes it does tell us a great DEAL about "The Great Tribulation", even though many of the events that happen during that time period were not given a name. It is the Combined TOTAL of the EVENTS of that final SEVEN YEARS before the KING OF Kings sets foot on Earth again, SPLITTING the Mount of Olives. There has always been Tribulations, but there is ONE surrounding the THIRD TEMPLE that is going to FAR, FAR, WORSE than any before it.
What we mean by it a combination of these Simultaneous Events:
The Revival of the FOURTH EMPIRE (the Roman Empire), which is not yet fully fulfilled Prophecy, but when the European Union has picked a single DICTATOR to Rule over them, it will be.
The Seventieth Week of DANIEL, which is the Week of Years that Antichrist makes a Peace Treaty with ISRAEL and her ENEMIES.
The Antichrist himself breaks the Peace Treaty and begins MASS BEHEADINGS of all who refuse to accept his MARK, (which is probably an implanted RFID micro chip or something similar), that SIGNIFIES that you have sworn you Allegiance to him, and now bow to him as if he is GOD.
The POURING OUT OF GOD'S WRATH, like NEVER BEFORE SINCE THE FLOOD of NOAH, as described in Revelation.
You should be able to find all of the verses that Describe those events if you really want to study them. I seriously do not think you will even try, and I seriously do not want to learn your theology; HENCE, it certainly is a Stalemate.
Matthew 24:21-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! {And you want to think Adolf Hitler killing six million Jews doesn't blow your whole theory that it was talking about 70 AD? EVEN 70 AD and the Holocaust combined together, will NOT come CLOSE to what the REAL great tribulation is. }
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
THE END OF THAT SEVEN YEAR PERIOD IS:
Zechariah 14:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
It STILL IS COMING, and will happen EXACTLY as HE prophesied.
Yes it does tell us a great DEAL about "The Great Tribulation", even though many of the events that happen during that time period were not given a name. It is the Combined TOTAL of the EVENTS of that final SEVEN YEARS before the KING OF Kings sets foot on Earth again, SPLITTING the Mount of Olives. There has always been Tribulations, but there is ONE surrounding the THIRD TEMPLE that is going to FAR, FAR, WORSE than any before it.
What we mean by it a combination of these Simultaneous Events:
The Revival of the FOURTH EMPIRE (the Roman Empire), which is not yet fully fulfilled Prophecy, but when the European Union has picked a single DICTATOR to Rule over them, it will be.
The Seventieth Week of DANIEL, which is the Week of Years that Antichrist makes a Peace Treaty with ISRAEL and her ENEMIES.
The Antichrist himself breaks the Peace Treaty and begins MASS BEHEADINGS of all who refuse to accept his MARK, (which is probably an implanted RFID micro chip or something similar), that SIGNIFIES that you have sworn you Allegiance to him, and now bow to him as if he is GOD.
The POURING OUT OF GOD'S WRATH, like NEVER BEFORE SINCE THE FLOOD of NOAH, as described in Revelation.
You should be able to find all of the verses that Describe those events if you really want to study them. I seriously do not think you will even try, and I seriously do not want to learn your theology; HENCE, it certainly is a Stalemate.
Matthew 24:21-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! {And you want to think Adolf Hitler killing six million Jews doesn't blow your whole theory that it was talking about 70 AD? EVEN 70 AD and the Holocaust combined together, will NOT come CLOSE to what the REAL great tribulation is. }
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
THE END OF THAT SEVEN YEAR PERIOD IS:
Zechariah 14:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
It STILL IS COMING, and will happen EXACTLY as HE prophesied.
Now I remember why I did put you on the ignore list last time. We were in a similar debate about a year or more ago, and you got mad when I asked you a similar question. Back then you showed nothing but contempt for those of us who believe the Calling Out of the Bride to go to the Wedding of the Lamb comes before the pouring out of HIS WRATH UPON THE WHOLE EARTH. Which to me is exhibiting bad fruit, and now that I remember and you are still exhibiting the same bad fruit, I have even more reason to doubt.
1 John 4:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen.
Please receive that with the love that I posted it. I am encouraging you not to show hate for those of us that are pre-trib BELIEVERS.
I am not seeing your FRUIT made manifest, because I would have to follow you around for a LONG TIME before it became obvious. So when I have doubts about one who is truly born again, I ask simple questions that one should be able to answer joyeously, if he or she is truly born again.
1 Corinthians 4:12-13 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and we toil, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure {ignore persecution}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things, even until now.
1 Corinthians 10:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it. {endure temptation}
2 Corinthians 1:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which worketh in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer:
2 Thessalonians 1:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;
2 Timothy 2:10 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Hebrews 12:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 11:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
James 5:11 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful.
Revelation 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to endure [2]{Literally - My Word of Endurance}, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
It is talking about enduring the hardships and persecutions and scoffings of this life without losing our Faith or Trust in our LORD, until we die or Christ calls us out of this world to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. It is not a Reference to endure the pouring out of GOD's wrath later in the book of Revelation.
1 John 4:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen.
Please receive that with the love that I posted it. I am encouraging you not to show hate for those of us that are pre-trib BELIEVERS.
I am not seeing your FRUIT made manifest, because I would have to follow you around for a LONG TIME before it became obvious. So when I have doubts about one who is truly born again, I ask simple questions that one should be able to answer joyeously, if he or she is truly born again.
1 Corinthians 4:12-13 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and we toil, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure {ignore persecution}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things, even until now.
1 Corinthians 10:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it. {endure temptation}
2 Corinthians 1:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which worketh in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer:
2 Thessalonians 1:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure;
2 Timothy 2:10 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Hebrews 12:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 11:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
James 5:11 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful.
Revelation 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to endure [2]{Literally - My Word of Endurance}, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
It is talking about enduring the hardships and persecutions and scoffings of this life without losing our Faith or Trust in our LORD, until we die or Christ calls us out of this world to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. It is not a Reference to endure the pouring out of GOD's wrath later in the book of Revelation.
[video]https://youtu.be/1yUK0S_cEXY[/video]
The last verse:
Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
No one prior to our generation, if your theory was correct, would have had to be ALERT or WATCHING; yet HE told all of us to be watching and stay alert:
Titus 2:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
{not the Second Coming where HE sets foot on the Mount of Olives a splits it.}
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
It clearly is before any of the ENDTIME EVENTS that will make BIG TIME NEWS on CNN; such as:
Revelation 11:7-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. {LIVE ON CNN}
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. {LIVE ON CNN}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. {LIVE ON CNN}
As for the oil in the lamps, do you not understand that is Symbolism for the HOLY SPIRIT in all truly Born Again believers, the One who makes our Lamp shine into the darkness of the World?
[video]https://youtu.be/1yUK0S_cEXY[/video]
The last verse:
Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
No one prior to our generation, if your theory was correct, would have had to be ALERT or WATCHING; yet HE told all of us to be watching and stay alert:
Titus 2:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
{not the Second Coming where HE sets foot on the Mount of Olives a splits it.}
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
It clearly is before any of the ENDTIME EVENTS that will make BIG TIME NEWS on CNN; such as:
Revelation 11:7-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. {LIVE ON CNN}
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. {LIVE ON CNN}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. {LIVE ON CNN}
As for the oil in the lamps, do you not understand that is Symbolism for the HOLY SPIRIT in all truly Born Again believers, the One who makes our Lamp shine into the darkness of the World?
[video]https://youtu.be/1yUK0S_cEXY[/video]
I don't hate pre-Tribbers. My father and mother are pre-tribbers and so is my pastor. I used to be myself. If I sound hateful it is because I speak with passion about the subject. It's like having a best friend who is about to jump off a cliff and you are trying to stop him.
You aren't seeing my "fruits" because you disagree with me. Plain and simple. You think it impossible that anyone who has a different view than you concerning the timing of the Lord's return must not be spiritually lead because in your mind, how could they be when you think you are spiritually lead? Can the same spirit lead two people to two different conclusions about a Biblical truth? I don't think so. Therefore one of us is being led by the traditions of man and the other by the spirit. We each think the Spirit leads us on the subject. The test is the truth. What does the Bible say? When are we told Christ returns? Is there any clear teaching that locates the return of Christ before the Tribulation? No there is not. Does Christ discuss in any passage two separate returns? No He does not.
Christians are not appointed to God's Wrath. I never said we have to endure God's Wrath. First off, the Tribulation (as I've said a million times) is not God's Wrath, it is Satan's wrath. God's wrath follows the Tribulation. God's wrath ends the Tribulation and precedes the Return of Christ.
You aren't seeing my "fruits" because you disagree with me. Plain and simple. You think it impossible that anyone who has a different view than you concerning the timing of the Lord's return must not be spiritually lead because in your mind, how could they be when you think you are spiritually lead? Can the same spirit lead two people to two different conclusions about a Biblical truth? I don't think so. Therefore one of us is being led by the traditions of man and the other by the spirit. We each think the Spirit leads us on the subject. The test is the truth. What does the Bible say? When are we told Christ returns? Is there any clear teaching that locates the return of Christ before the Tribulation? No there is not. Does Christ discuss in any passage two separate returns? No He does not.
Christians are not appointed to God's Wrath. I never said we have to endure God's Wrath. First off, the Tribulation (as I've said a million times) is not God's Wrath, it is Satan's wrath. God's wrath follows the Tribulation. God's wrath ends the Tribulation and precedes the Return of Christ.
Last edited:
Correct, we don't know the Day or Hour. Can we know the week? Can we know the Season? Can we know the year? Can we know the Generation in which He will return? Nothing says we can't. Why do you think it important to watch if we are not to know the day or hour? If it is pre-trib, why would watching matter? If Christ returns before Satan comes claiming to be God and there is no chance to be deceived, why do we need to watch? The pre-trib view gets you off the hook for everything. No temptation, no falling away, no tribulation.
Clearly it is important for each of us to always be walking the Christian walk and to have our hearts right with the Lord. Not because of any rapture but because we never know when it is our "appointed time."
There is only one "appearing." You are not given a pre-trib timing here. You are simply assuming it, like you assuming it based on Jewish Wedding Traditions, etc.
Don't you realize Christ "APPEARS" before He actually returns? The "Sign of the Son of Man" appears in heaven BEFORE He actually returns. Everyone is given a chance to call upon His name and be saved. The wicked have time to run and hide.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
The wicked will mourn and be terrified when Christ appears. Those of us who have survived Satan's Great Tribulation will be overwhelmed with joy at the appearance of our savior.
...to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels..
Believers who endure get their rest when??? Before the tribulation or after??
Does anyone really watch CNN anymore?
. I am not even going to bother explaining the poetic symbolism of the Two Witnesses to you. You obviously see them as two fire breathing men doing miracles, testifying and being killed in Jerusalem by a monster who comes up from the earth.
My lamp is full of oil dear brother, is yours? Let me ask you something. What is the "Hour of Trial" or test in the below?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Clearly it is important for each of us to always be walking the Christian walk and to have our hearts right with the Lord. Not because of any rapture but because we never know when it is our "appointed time."
There is only one "appearing." You are not given a pre-trib timing here. You are simply assuming it, like you assuming it based on Jewish Wedding Traditions, etc.
Don't you realize Christ "APPEARS" before He actually returns? The "Sign of the Son of Man" appears in heaven BEFORE He actually returns. Everyone is given a chance to call upon His name and be saved. The wicked have time to run and hide.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
The wicked will mourn and be terrified when Christ appears. Those of us who have survived Satan's Great Tribulation will be overwhelmed with joy at the appearance of our savior.
...to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels..
Believers who endure get their rest when??? Before the tribulation or after??
Does anyone really watch CNN anymore?
. I am not even going to bother explaining the poetic symbolism of the Two Witnesses to you. You obviously see them as two fire breathing men doing miracles, testifying and being killed in Jerusalem by a monster who comes up from the earth. My lamp is full of oil dear brother, is yours? Let me ask you something. What is the "Hour of Trial" or test in the below?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Correct, we don't know the Day or Hour. Can we know the week? Can we know the Season? Can we know the year? Can we know the Generation in which He will return? Nothing says we can't. Why do you think it important to watch if we are not to know the day or hour? If it is pre-trib, why would watching matter? If Christ returns before Satan comes claiming to be God and there is no chance to be deceived, why do we need to watch? The pre-trib view gets you off the hook for everything. No temptation, no falling away, no tribulation.
Clearly it is important for each of us to always be walking the Christian walk and to have our hearts right with the Lord. Not because of any rapture but because we never know when it is our "appointed time."
There is only one "appearing." You are not given a pre-trib timing here. You are simply assuming it, like you assuming it based on Jewish Wedding Traditions, etc.
Don't you realize Christ "APPEARS" before He actually returns? The "Sign of the Son of Man" appears in heaven BEFORE He actually returns. Everyone is given a chance to call upon His name and be saved. The wicked have time to run and hide.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
The wicked will mourn and be terrified when Christ appears. Those of us who have survived Satan's Great Tribulation will be overwhelmed with joy at the appearance of our savior.
...to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels..
Believers who endure get their rest when??? Before the tribulation or after??
Does anyone really watch CNN anymore?. I am not even going to bother explaining the poetic symbolism of the Two Witnesses to you. You obviously see them as two fire breathing men doing miracles, testifying and being killed in Jerusalem by a monster who comes up from the earth.
My lamp is full of oil dear brother, is yours? Let me ask you something. What is the "Hour of Trial" or test in the below?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Clearly it is important for each of us to always be walking the Christian walk and to have our hearts right with the Lord. Not because of any rapture but because we never know when it is our "appointed time."
There is only one "appearing." You are not given a pre-trib timing here. You are simply assuming it, like you assuming it based on Jewish Wedding Traditions, etc.
Don't you realize Christ "APPEARS" before He actually returns? The "Sign of the Son of Man" appears in heaven BEFORE He actually returns. Everyone is given a chance to call upon His name and be saved. The wicked have time to run and hide.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
The wicked will mourn and be terrified when Christ appears. Those of us who have survived Satan's Great Tribulation will be overwhelmed with joy at the appearance of our savior.
...to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels..
Believers who endure get their rest when??? Before the tribulation or after??
Does anyone really watch CNN anymore?
. I am not even going to bother explaining the poetic symbolism of the Two Witnesses to you. You obviously see them as two fire breathing men doing miracles, testifying and being killed in Jerusalem by a monster who comes up from the earth. My lamp is full of oil dear brother, is yours? Let me ask you something. What is the "Hour of Trial" or test in the below?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Why should I explain more, when you have already closed your ears to hearing what I have already shared with you.
Are you that eager to have more to scoff at?
You are free to believe what you want, but as for me and my house we will continue to Believe what the Holy Spirit in our hearts teaches us to Believe, through the WORD of GOD and through the teachings of SPIRIT FILLED men, whom I know are gifted and led by the Holy Spirit. I have no interest in learning your theology, because the Holy Spirit has already revealed to me in my heart, that I am on the narrow path, having already come through the narrow gate.
OR, is it more like this verse?
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
Can't you see we are already at a Stalemate, and anything more would be excercise in futility. May I suggest that you debate with your Dad? You seem to be desperate to prove your Dad wrong.
K
Here is the thing though VCO, as just because for example you have a group of 20 people who are Spirit lead.
Not all of those 20 will be lead by the Spirit to interpret and give prophecy, as we are each chosen for different roles in the body of Christ. 5 maybe chosen to do prophecy, 10 others to evangelize, and the other 5 to preach warnings to believers as the Apostle Paul did.
Before we speak on subjects we need to make sure that is what God through His Holy Spirit has called us to do, as for the rapture and its timing is a subject that will not be revealed to any believer as Jesus said even He did not know the time of His second coming and that only God knows that.
I for one can atone for this of the calling, as I wanted to do prophecy when I first got into the word.
The Holy Spirit though lead me to studying, learning, and in turn giving out to fellow believers the same warnings that Paul gave to believers in the bible first. Then after 6 years of doing that He then directed me to go back to prophecy study, as He wanted me to focus on the more important thing of the bible first and that is salvation for self and others.
Now through the Holy Spirit I have been shown away from all these man made philosophies and had my eyes opened up to truths in bible. And one of those main truths is the nations that follow the man of sin in the end times being mainly or all populated Muslim nations, Mystery Babylon in Saudi Arabia, and Turkey the main location to look for the man of sin to be seated at first before he invades Israel.
The narrow gate is salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, and not by the knowledge of when the rapture will happen...
P
That quote is pure conjecture,and misses by a mile.
1) The Ac is given POWER TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS.
2)every humanoid on the planet is killed that refuses the mark.
3) the pretrib rapture is the ending of the time of the gentiles.Those left behind are murdered by AC (gentiles completed)
4)There are millions of believers already dead and many of them just lived uneventful lives got old and died. So your "suffering theory" is not by anymeans a measuring stick that you think God uses for every believer.
Uh,you just twisted that.
It says ;
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept."
See that?Under your invented theory,you have us going through the GT slumbering and sleeping.
Nope. "tarrying" is what he is doing NOW. You further have a problem in that if "tarrying" refers to the GT,then they did in fact hve enough oil to "make it through the GT" in that they RAN OUT,when he appeared.IOW,they did get through the gt with the oil they had
Your whole premise is shot down.
Bride dimension is another ingrediant you guys failed to factor in.But it is entertaining every single time you guys attempt the crazy wacky force fits.
1) The Ac is given POWER TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS.
2)every humanoid on the planet is killed that refuses the mark.
3) the pretrib rapture is the ending of the time of the gentiles.Those left behind are murdered by AC (gentiles completed)
4)There are millions of believers already dead and many of them just lived uneventful lives got old and died. So your "suffering theory" is not by anymeans a measuring stick that you think God uses for every believer.
Uh,you just twisted that.
It says ;
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept."
See that?Under your invented theory,you have us going through the GT slumbering and sleeping.
Nope. "tarrying" is what he is doing NOW. You further have a problem in that if "tarrying" refers to the GT,then they did in fact hve enough oil to "make it through the GT" in that they RAN OUT,when he appeared.IOW,they did get through the gt with the oil they had
Your whole premise is shot down.
Bride dimension is another ingrediant you guys failed to factor in.But it is entertaining every single time you guys attempt the crazy wacky force fits.
P
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
2 different event,or else the angels were dellusional
Like manner kinda rules out "horses,swords,judgement,slaughter,'with the saints',".....and so on
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
2 different event,or else the angels were dellusional
Like manner kinda rules out "horses,swords,judgement,slaughter,'with the saints',".....and so on
Nope. The text does not say that. You jump to a false conclusion. We know Christians without the mark are alive and still on the planet and that they did not take the mark, otherwise there would be nobody for Christ to gather when He returns. This is what the text actually says.
...and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
This could easily mean: If they catch you not worshiping the beast they will kill you, just like in Daniel's day. This says nothing about "the whole planet." I think you have it confused with the next verse:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Notice that neither the term "earth" o "world" are used here. "He causes all." The "all" here don't get to buy or sell. It says nothing about them being killed. The "BEAST" here in Rev 13 is the Northern Islamic Extremist Army. The "mark" is the badge they wear. Those who "dwell on the earth" is limited to the Muslim world where they have influence. We learn back at the fourth seal:
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill... So this whole passage of Rev 13 deals with that 1/4 of the earth, the Muslim world.
No it isn't. What on EARTH gives you that idea? Please quote chapter and verse. This I have to see. The "time of the Gentiles" deals with the time the Gentiles have control over the temple mount. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. It has nothing to do with the rapture. My goodness!!!
The suffering I discuss deals with the real tribulation and persecution Christians are living (and dying) with at the hands of Radical Islam. This tribulation will continue to get worse and worse.
Exactly. Some of you are sound "asleep." You don't recognize and see the signs.
The parable deals with "watching" and being alert. It isn't a word for word literal parallel to the Tribulation and return of Christ. The parable doesn't deal with tribulation at all. That concept isn't part of the parable. The key point of the parable is to be a watcher, be patient, know the signs and be alert for the master's return. The Pretrib doctrine does not require that you do anything. It assumes the rapture is involuntary, Christ comes and boom in an instant, you are whisked away. No need to watch or know signs.
... And you guys keep bringing up this bride thing like it somehow proves a pre-trib rapture. Personally I ignore it because it's a lame point which proves no timing. The fact is Paul tells us we are to be presented a chaste virgin. The term "virgin" obviously isn't literal. It's figurative for meaning we have been worshiping no other gods or idols. Some have to be purified first through fire. Zechariah and John teach us that. Where do you suppose the "fire" comes from? A pre trib fly away has no fire.
. You jump to a false conclusion. We know Christians without the mark are alive and still on the planet and that they did not take the mark, otherwise there would be nobody for Christ to gather when He returns. This is what the text actually says....and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
This could easily mean: If they catch you not worshiping the beast they will kill you, just like in Daniel's day. This says nothing about "the whole planet." I think you have it confused with the next verse:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Notice that neither the term "earth" o "world" are used here. "He causes all." The "all" here don't get to buy or sell. It says nothing about them being killed. The "BEAST" here in Rev 13 is the Northern Islamic Extremist Army. The "mark" is the badge they wear. Those who "dwell on the earth" is limited to the Muslim world where they have influence. We learn back at the fourth seal:
And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill... So this whole passage of Rev 13 deals with that 1/4 of the earth, the Muslim world.
No it isn't
. What on EARTH gives you that idea? Please quote chapter and verse. This I have to see. The "time of the Gentiles" deals with the time the Gentiles have control over the temple mount. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. It has nothing to do with the rapture. My goodness!!!The suffering I discuss deals with the real tribulation and persecution Christians are living (and dying) with at the hands of Radical Islam. This tribulation will continue to get worse and worse.
Exactly. Some of you are sound "asleep." You don't recognize and see the signs.
The parable deals with "watching" and being alert. It isn't a word for word literal parallel to the Tribulation and return of Christ. The parable doesn't deal with tribulation at all. That concept isn't part of the parable. The key point of the parable is to be a watcher, be patient, know the signs and be alert for the master's return. The Pretrib doctrine does not require that you do anything. It assumes the rapture is involuntary, Christ comes and boom in an instant, you are whisked away. No need to watch or know signs.
... And you guys keep bringing up this bride thing like it somehow proves a pre-trib rapture. Personally I ignore it because it's a lame point
which proves no timing. The fact is Paul tells us we are to be presented a chaste virgin. The term "virgin" obviously isn't literal. It's figurative for meaning we have been worshiping no other gods or idols. Some have to be purified first through fire. Zechariah and John teach us that. Where do you suppose the "fire" comes from? A pre trib fly away has no fire.
Last edited:
There is NO PLACE in the Bible where a Pre-Trib timing is given!!! I can show you a post trib timing if you'd like. Why won't you pre-tribbers just admit it, no pre-trib timing can be found. You derive it from 2 passages by Paul (neither of which provide a pre-trib timing) then you misunderstand the whole concept of the Tribulation thinking it is of God when in fact it is of Satan. God isn't responsible for killing all the Christians and deceiving them into worshiping Satan. My God would not do that!!!.
God's army puts a stop to Satan's Tribulation. It's called the Wrath of God and it comes in response to what Satan has been doing to God's people. Read the Book of Joel. God's army in Joel is the same army of the 6th trumpet. We are not appointed to God's wrath, that's true. God tells us to get out of the way and warns us to get out of the Beast Kingdom so that we won't share in its plagues. Here it is, Rev 18:
“Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Who are "God's People?" Who is the "her" mentioned here? God is telling His people to get out of Babylon AKA, the BEAST nations of the Sea region. So, obviously we are here during God's Wrath, we just aren't where the wrath is happening if we read and understand Revelation and get the "blessing" we are promised and follow God's instructions. My goodness...
God's army puts a stop to Satan's Tribulation. It's called the Wrath of God and it comes in response to what Satan has been doing to God's people. Read the Book of Joel. God's army in Joel is the same army of the 6th trumpet. We are not appointed to God's wrath, that's true. God tells us to get out of the way and warns us to get out of the Beast Kingdom so that we won't share in its plagues. Here it is, Rev 18:
“Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Who are "God's People?" Who is the "her" mentioned here? God is telling His people to get out of Babylon AKA, the BEAST nations of the Sea region. So, obviously we are here during God's Wrath, we just aren't where the wrath is happening if we read and understand Revelation and get the "blessing" we are promised and follow God's instructions. My goodness...
. Can I suggest something to you Popeye? With utmost love and respect, have you ever researched to see just when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place? It happens in Rev 19 after the Tribulation is over. How is the Bride dressed? How does she make herself ready. You can look it up if you want but here it is:
...for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Fine linen, clean and bright.
How are those killed during the Great Tribulation dressed? We are told not once, but twice:
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Did you see the white robe in the above given to those killed DURING the Tribulation? Guess what else? Those from the 5th seal are told to wait until more of their "FELLOW SERVANTS AND BRETHREN" are killed too. These aren't some second class, newly converted Tribulation Saints who missed the Rapture. They are fellow servants and brethren!!!
That's a powerful expression John uses. To be a FELLOW SERVANT and BRETHREN is high praise - the highest - a Christian can get. I want to be known as a fellow servant and brethren. I speak with passion because so many believers (not necessarily you because I don't know your heart) look upon Saints who die in the Great Tribulation as "LEFT BEHIND - Not good enough" Christians. The opposite is true. These Christians who die during the Tribulation, who refused to convert to Islam and stay true to God, are heroes. That's why they get to reign with Christ 1,000 years.
The Whole THEME of the Book of Revelation is to give comfort to Christians that Christ is in control and HE WINS!! Hallelujah dear Brothers and Sisters. We know how this is going to end - WE WIN!! Satan and Islam Lose!!
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John was not ashamed to be in the tribulation (small t). Paul wasn't either. Paul was proud to suffer for Christ. Some I fear are ashamed to be here for it.
Last edited: